Tempted of the Devil and Jesus’ claim to being God.

Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,356

Tempted of the Devil and Jesus’ claim to being God.


And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.” Luke 4:1–2 (KJV 1900)

 “And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.” Luke 4:9–11 (KJV 1900)

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” Matthew 4:7 (KJV 1900)

Right away the antitrinitarian will say the Devil meant the Father would bear Jesus up according to Ps 91. And it is the Father whom Jesus referred to.

But look again.

By saying this, does Jesus announce he is God? Yes. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Colossians 2:9 (KJV 1900)

So Jesus in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily announced to the Devil he is God.

Further proof? The oldest manuscripts say so too.

And he is God; “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5 (ESV)

Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    @Dave_L posted

     “And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.Luke 4:9–11 (KJV 1900)

    Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Matthew 4:7 (KJV 1900)

    Right away the antitrinitarian will say the Devil meant the Father would bear Jesus up according to Ps 91. And it is the Father whom Jesus referred to.

    Whose angels are being referred to in Psa 91? Does Psa 91 actually say that YHWH would do anything if someone would cast themselves down from the pinnacle of the temple? Or was the devil misinterpreting Psa 91 in order to actually have Jesus kill himself (which is what I would understand the passage to be saying) ?

    But look again.

    By saying this, does Jesus announce he is God? Yes. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Colossians 2:9 (KJV 1900)

    So Jesus in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily announced to the Devil he is God.

    Where in Lk 4:9-11 does Jesus announce to the devil that he [Jesus] is God ?? Having actually checked the Greek text as well as numerous Bible translations in German and English of Lk 4:9-11, there has not been one which states what you claim here. Which text or translation are you following and how do you arrive at your claim?

    Further proof? The oldest manuscripts say so too.

    And he is God; “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.Jude 5 (ESV)

    It has already been shown a few times that this translation of Jude 5 having "Jesus" is based on one rather dubious Greek manuscript, disregarding the many other manuscripts which have a different reading.

  • PagesPages Posts: 91

    @Wolfgang

    It has already been shown a few times that this translation of Jude 5 having "Jesus" is based on one rather dubious Greek manuscript, disregarding the many other manuscripts which have a different reading.

    ...one rather dubious Greek manuscript”? And this manuscript is to be identified as...?


    The following two greek uncial manuscripts display the nomen sacra, ⲓ̅ⲥ̅, used for Jesus:

    Codex Vaticanus (c. 325)

    “ⲩ̈ⲡⲟⲙⲛⲏⲥⲁⲓⲇⲉⲩ̈ⲙⲁⲥⲃⲟⲩⲗⲟⲙⲁⲓⲉⲓⲇⲟⲧⲁⲥⲩⲙⲁⲥⲁⲡⲁⲝⲡⲁⲛⲧⲁⲟⲧⲓ ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ⲗⲁⲟⲛⲉⲕ” (Jude 1:5)

    Codex Alexandrinus (c. 425)

    “ⲩ̈ⲡⲟⲙⲛⲏⲥⲁⲓⲇⲉⲩ̈ⲙⲁⲥⲂⲟⲩⲗⲟⲙⲁⲓⲉⲓⲇⲟⲧⲁⲥⲁⲡⲁⲝⲡⲁⲛⲧⲁⲟⲧⲓ ⲓ̅ⲥ̅ⲗⲁⲟⲛⲉⲕ” (Jude 1:5)


    Prior to the time of these above two manuscripts Justin Martyr had this to say in his writing (c. 155): “For all we out of all nations do expect not Judah, but Jesus, who led your fathers out of Egypt.” (Trypho 1:120)

    The above quote demonstrates Justin’s familiarity with the Jude 5 passage reading of “Jesus” – a century and a half earlier than what we have extant in manuscript witness.  

    Moreover, this would push backward to an earlier point in time for the existence of a source text reading “Jesus“ at Jude 5 as Justin’s statement is framed as if this is common knowledge at his time of writing (c. 155).


    For additional excitement in the text critical domain:

    𝔓72 (c. 300)

    “ⲩⲡⲟⲙⲛⲏⲥⲉⲇⲉⲩⲙⲁⲥⲃⲟⲩⲗⲟⲙⲁⲓⲉⲓⲇⲟⲧⲁⲥⲁⲡⲁⲝⲡⲁⲛⲧⲁⲥⲟⲧⲓⲑ̅ⲥ̅ⲭ̅ⲣ̅ⲥ̅ⲗⲁⲟⲛⲉⲅ” (Jude 1:5) 

    The above is intriguing, to me, as the scribe has written the nomen sacra ⲑ̅ⲥ̅ ⲭ̅ⲣ̅ⲥ, “God (the) Christ” or “Christ God“, led the people out of Egypt.  

    This is intriguing in part, due to the unique reading; but also in part, because this scribe will have been using, as was custom, an exemplar (or two) to copy this text from.  


    The only other papyri with Jude 5:

    𝔓78 (c. 300)

    “ⲩ̈ⲡⲟⲙⲛⲏⲥⲁⲓⲇⲉⲩ̈ⲙⲁⲥⲃⲟⲩⲗⲟⲙⲉⲁⲇⲉⲗⲫⲟ̣ⲓ̣” (Jude 1:5)

    Unfortunately, this papyri is missing the majority of the text; however, what we have reads “now I want to remind you brothers” – the only extant text with this variant ⲁⲇⲉⲗⲫⲟ̣ⲓ̣ (brothers).  

    I believe the above summarizes the early textual attestation to the reading of Jesus in the Jude passage.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 4,319

    Ha, Wolfgang said:

    It has already been shown a few times that this translation of Jude 5 having "Jesus" is based on one rather dubious Greek manuscript, disregarding the many other manuscripts which have a different reading.

    When did manuscripts become dependent upon majority vote to be truth? CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872

    The above nicely shows how "dubious" the rendering "Jesus" in place of "the Lord" really is ....

    One only needs to read the OT records from Exo - Deu which have the actual records of the exodus of Israel from the land of Egypt to know that it was not Jesus but YHWH, the Lord God Almighty, who when the time was fulfilled sent His only begotten Son, Jesus, Who saved the Israelites from Egypt and Who later caused the unbelieving rebellious generation of Israelites to perish in the desert.

    Who would think that the reading "Jesus" in Jude 5 could be correct, when the OT records tell differently? The error is caused by a certain reading in mss from early on when ideas of Jesus=God began infiltrating Christendom.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 3,872
    edited January 2020

    @C_M_ posted

    When did manuscripts become dependent upon majority vote to be truth? CM

    Jude 5 has nothing to do with majority vote among manuscripts .... has to do with being in harmony with the rest of Scripture ... I would have thought, you would know that 😉

    Now, @C_M_ , what about the original post in this thread concerning Lk 4:9-11 and the claim that Jesus claimed to be God??

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