John 17:3 and the Trinity?

MitchellMitchell Posts: 440
edited February 2018 in Bible Questions

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(KJV 1611)

If one, therefore, believes in the One true God and accepts The Messiah known as Jesus(sic)/Yeshua (and also believes in the Holy Spirit) is it really necessary for them to accept, believe, or understand the 'systematic' doctrine of Trinity?

Step one: Answer Yes, Maybe, or No
Step two: Provide Scriptural references
Step three: Explain and elaborate on how each of those scriptural references leads you to your conclusion(s).

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Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593
    edited February 2018

    @Mitchell said:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(KJV 1611)

    If one, therefore, believes in the One true God and accepts The Messiah known as Jesus(sic)/Yeshua (and also believes in the Holy Spirit) is it really necessary for them to accept, believe, or understand the 'systematic' doctrine of Trinity?

    I am wondering greatly at this question ... especially so in light of the verse just quoted above as well as the question asked in the topic/subject line ...

    Step one: Answer Yes, Maybe, or No

    No ... it is not necessary for anyone to believe in the "systematic" (traditional or whatever other color shade of) doctrine of the Trinity.

    Step two: Provide Scriptural references

    Just read Joh 17:3 ... IF one accepts Jesus' words as recorded there, there should not be any inkling of a consideration of the doctrine of the Trinity ... Jesus' words here exclude and contradict the doctrine of the Trinity.
    Although God is mentioned, Jesus Christ is mentioned, etc ... what Jesus said has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with either a "Bi-nity" or "(part of a) Tri-nity".
    As I have mentioned some other place, just because Scripture mentions certain 3 persons or things together, does not make for "a Trinity".

    Step three: Explain and elaborate on how each of those scriptural references leads you to your conclusion(s).

    There is nothing from Scripture to elaborate ... just READ - for God's sake, please, READ and engage any mental abilities of reason and logic one may have!

    My elaboration is that anyone who adheres to the doctrine of the Trinity is flat out declaring Jesus to be a liar with what he said as mentioned in the verse above ... while I am sure that no adherent to the doctrine of the Trinity will admit that simple fact and instead have all kinds of elaborate denial arguments ...

    The worst blame is to be put on those who propagate and teach this blatantly false doctrine and in their heart or little bit of truth-sense left they know that the damnable doctrine is false. On the other hand, the many and by far vast majority of Trinity followers are "brain washed / programmed" and/or "in some way pressured" folks, who freely admit, they have no real clue as to what the Trinity is about but "believe it", because our church, our preacher, our seminary professor, the famous Dr. so and so, or who knows who taught it ...

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Mitchell said:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(KJV 1611)

    If one, therefore, believes in the One true God and accepts The Messiah known as Jesus(sic)/Yeshua (and also believes in the Holy Spirit) is it really necessary for them to accept, believe, or understand the 'systematic' doctrine of Trinity?

    Step one: Answer Yes, Maybe, or No
    Step two: Provide Scriptural references
    Step three: Explain and elaborate on how each of those scriptural references leads you to your conclusion(s).

    Step one = yes. The reason being that any deviation from doctrine as stated in the ecumenical creeds produces a false image of God.

    Step two = For starters: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23)

    “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7)

    Step three = The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.

    And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”

  • @Dave_L said:

    @Mitchell said:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(KJV 1611)

    If one, therefore, believes in the One true God and accepts The Messiah known as Jesus(sic)/Yeshua (and also believes in the Holy Spirit) is it really necessary for them to accept, believe, or understand the 'systematic' doctrine of Trinity?

    Step one: Answer Yes, Maybe, or No
    Step two: Provide Scriptural references
    Step three: Explain and elaborate on how each of those scriptural references leads you to your conclusion(s).

    Step one = yes. The reason being that any deviation from doctrine as stated in the ecumenical creeds produces a false image of God.

    Step two = For starters: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23)

    “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7)

    Step three = The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.

    And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”

    This is polar opposite the biblical data. Biblical Christians reject Creedal “Christianity” as reflected in the “Trinity” doctrine.

    https://apostolicacademics.com/

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Homeskillet said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Mitchell said:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(KJV 1611)

    If one, therefore, believes in the One true God and accepts The Messiah known as Jesus(sic)/Yeshua (and also believes in the Holy Spirit) is it really necessary for them to accept, believe, or understand the 'systematic' doctrine of Trinity?

    Step one: Answer Yes, Maybe, or No
    Step two: Provide Scriptural references
    Step three: Explain and elaborate on how each of those scriptural references leads you to your conclusion(s).

    Step one = yes. The reason being that any deviation from doctrine as stated in the ecumenical creeds produces a false image of God.

    Step two = For starters: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23)

    “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.” (John 16:7)

    Step three = The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).

    Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.

    And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”

    This is polar opposite the biblical data. Biblical Christians reject Creedal “Christianity” as reflected in the “Trinity” doctrine.

    https://apostolicacademics.com/

    It is only opposite the biblical data if you want it to be. We have three persons, each called God present at Jesus' baptism. And two persons called God present on the mount of transfiguration. Oneness is more like Islam than it is Christianity which is the only trinitarian religion in the world.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Dave_L said:

    @Homeskillet said:
    This is polar opposite the biblical data. Biblical Christians reject Creedal “Christianity” as reflected in the “Trinity” doctrine.
    https://apostolicacademics.com/

    It is only opposite the biblical data if you want it to be. We have three persons, each called God present at Jesus' baptism.

    Hmn ... "three persons, each CALLED God..."?? only "called" God? And where is Jesus, the Messiah (Christ) called God?

    Three God-persons "present at Jesus' baptism" ??? So you have one God in the water being baptized ? Why would a God needing to be baptized by a human? Another God speaking from heaven, declaring that the first mentioned God is his Son? And the third God in the picture actually turned himself into a dove and rested on the first God?

    Do you realize how what YOU want the Biblical data to be has nothing whatever to do with Biblical data?

    And two persons called God present on the mount of transfiguration.

    Hmn ... what happened to the third God-person? Was he left behind somewhere and thus the three are not really one God??

    Oneness is more like Islam than it is Christianity which is the only trinitarian religion in the world.

    Actually, Islam is correct in the fact that only One single person is God ... their error is that their One "God" is NOT the God of the Bible.

    Furthermore, there are other religions that worship a "Trinity" of God-persons, usually thought of as the heads of their particular pantheon.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Homeskillet said:
    This is polar opposite the biblical data. Biblical Christians reject Creedal “Christianity” as reflected in the “Trinity” doctrine.
    https://apostolicacademics.com/

    It is only opposite the biblical data if you want it to be. We have three persons, each called God present at Jesus' baptism.

    Hmn ... "three persons, each CALLED God..."?? only "called" God? And where is Jesus, the Messiah (Christ) called God?

    Three God-persons "present at Jesus' baptism" ??? So you have one God in the water being baptized ? Why would a God needing to be baptized by a human? Another God speaking from heaven, declaring that the first mentioned God is his Son? And the third God in the picture actually turned himself into a dove and rested on the first God?

    Do you realize how what YOU want the Biblical data to be has nothing whatever to do with Biblical data?

    And two persons called God present on the mount of transfiguration.

    Hmn ... what happened to the third God-person? Was he left behind somewhere and thus the three are not really one God??

    Oneness is more like Islam than it is Christianity which is the only trinitarian religion in the world.

    Actually, Islam is correct in the fact that only One single person is God ... their error is that their One "God" is NOT the God of the Bible.

    Furthermore, there are other religions that worship a "Trinity" of God-persons, usually thought of as the heads of their particular pantheon.

    You see what you want to see. But you do not want to see the three persons scripture calls God present all at once during Jesus' baptism. Or you would acknowledge it.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Dave_L said:
    You see what you want to see.

    False ... I want to see what others write and do take a careful look at what they write and ask detailed questions about what they write and I do expect answers to those questions in order to together search the scriptures and arrive at learning the truth.

    You seem to refuse any real dialogue seeing that you refuse to answer the questions you are asked concerning what you wrote. Is it because you are unable to answer? Is it because you are unwilling to answer? Is it for some other reason?

    But you do not want to see the three persons scripture calls God present all at once during Jesus' baptism. Or you would acknowledge it.

    IF the Bible taught that there are three Gods present at Jesus' baptism, I would believe that the Bible taught there are three Gods present at Jesus' baptism .. it is that simple.

    Now, answer in detail the questions from my previous post regarding what you had claimed about three persons being called God and being present at Jesus' baptism ... let's see whether your answers will hold up to what Scripture in fact does say, rather than contradicting Scripture in favor of later church creeds and dogmas ...

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    You see what you want to see.

    False ... I want to see what others write and do take a careful look at what they write and ask detailed questions about what they write and I do expect answers to those questions in order to together search the scriptures and arrive at learning the truth.

    You seem to refuse any real dialogue seeing that you refuse to answer the questions you are asked concerning what you wrote. Is it because you are unable to answer? Is it because you are unwilling to answer? Is it for some other reason?

    But you do not want to see the three persons scripture calls God present all at once during Jesus' baptism. Or you would acknowledge it.

    IF the Bible taught that there are three Gods present at Jesus' baptism, I would believe that the Bible taught there are three Gods present at Jesus' baptism .. it is that simple.

    Now, answer in detail the questions from my previous post regarding what you had claimed about three persons being called God and being present at Jesus' baptism ... let's see whether your answers will hold up to what Scripture in fact does say, rather than contradicting Scripture in favor of later church creeds and dogmas ...

    Why does all of Christendom see the trinity and you do not? Have they been wrong all this time and you and your little sect are now right? Extreme hubris on your part?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Now, answer in detail the questions from my previous post regarding what you had claimed about three persons being called God and being present at Jesus' baptism ... let's see whether your answers will hold up to what Scripture in fact does say, rather than contradicting Scripture in favor of later church creeds and dogmas ...

    Why does all of Christendom see the trinity and you do not?

    First, why did you not answer my questions in my last post to which you replied?
    Next, not all of Christendom sees and believes in the trinity ...Furthermore, I would add that much of Christendom does not actually take a look at Scripture but instead "blindly" takes in what they are fed by the institution denomination of which they are members and whose dogmas they are fed as if these were the Word of God

    Have they been wrong all this time and you and your little sect are now right? Extreme hubris on your part?

    The early Christians did not believe in the Trinity, and there have been groups throughout the centuries since who did not believe in the Trinity, despite being persecuted even to the point of being burned at the stake b Trinitarians for not believing in the Trinity ... Yes, much of so-called Christendom has been victim to a great seduction and been wrong.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Now, answer in detail the questions from my previous post regarding what you had claimed about three persons being called God and being present at Jesus' baptism ... let's see whether your answers will hold up to what Scripture in fact does say, rather than contradicting Scripture in favor of later church creeds and dogmas ...

    Why does all of Christendom see the trinity and you do not?

    First, why did you not answer my questions in my last post to which you replied?
    Next, not all of Christendom sees and believes in the trinity ...Furthermore, I would add that much of Christendom does not actually take a look at Scripture but instead "blindly" takes in what they are fed by the institution denomination of which they are members and whose dogmas they are fed as if these were the Word of God

    Have they been wrong all this time and you and your little sect are now right? Extreme hubris on your part?

    The early Christians did not believe in the Trinity, and there have been groups throughout the centuries since who did not believe in the Trinity, despite being persecuted even to the point of being burned at the stake b Trinitarians for not believing in the Trinity ... Yes, much of so-called Christendom has been victim to a great seduction and been wrong.

    Christianity is the only religion to worship God in trinity. Any calling themselves Christians who do not, do not belong to Christendom but are a cult of Christendom.

  • PagesPages Posts: 45

    @Wolfgang said:

    Furthermore, there are other religion that worship a "Trinity" of God-persons, usually thought of as the heads of their particular pantheon.

    In these "other religions" you mention is there one where you find an identical one-to-one trinity doctrine equivalent to the christian doctrine of the Trinity – or is it just the common denominator of the number three that make them equivalents to you?

  • @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Now, answer in detail the questions from my previous post regarding what you had claimed about three persons being called God and being present at Jesus' baptism ... let's see whether your answers will hold up to what Scripture in fact does say, rather than contradicting Scripture in favor of later church creeds and dogmas ...

    Why does all of Christendom see the trinity and you do not?

    First, why did you not answer my questions in my last post to which you replied?
    Next, not all of Christendom sees and believes in the trinity ...Furthermore, I would add that much of Christendom does not actually take a look at Scripture but instead "blindly" takes in what they are fed by the institution denomination of which they are members and whose dogmas they are fed as if these were the Word of God

    Have they been wrong all this time and you and your little sect are now right? Extreme hubris on your part?

    The early Christians did not believe in the Trinity, and there have been groups throughout the centuries since who did not believe in the Trinity, despite being persecuted even to the point of being burned at the stake b Trinitarians for not believing in the Trinity ... Yes, much of so-called Christendom has been victim to a great seduction and been wrong.

    Christianity is the only religion to worship God in trinity. Any calling themselves Christians who do not, do not belong to Christendom but are a cult of Christendom.

    You got it wrong again. Biblically, any one calling themselves “Christians” who DOES worship a “Trinity” does not belong to biblical Christendom, but rather are in false doctrine masquerading as “Christianity.”

    To answer your question on another thread, no, I was not “raised UPC” (nor am I now a member of the UPC). I used to attend Trinitarian churches, until I began to search the Scriptures tenaciously...which then forced me to exchange Trinitarianism for biblical Christianity & Monotheism.

    Then I studied original biblical languages (e.g., Hebrew & Greek), and that really held me hostage to abandon Trinitarianism if I would be honest w. the biblical data. In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Homeskillet said:
    ...
    ... In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

    Well said ...

    From my observation over several decades, I have come to the conclusion that Trinity adherents hold their doctrine to be God's Word as stated in the Bible ... and subsequently reading Scripture through Trinity colored glasses.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Pages said:
    In these "other religions" you mention is there one where you find an identical one-to-one trinity doctrine equivalent to the christian doctrine of the Trinity – or is it just the common denominator of the number three that make them equivalents to you?

    The one-to-one equivalent is the simple fact that they worship not One Alone as their God, but multiple persons as God, and often have a top trio "Godhead" of THREE persons.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286
    edited January 21

    @Homeskillet said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Now, answer in detail the questions from my previous post regarding what you had claimed about three persons being called God and being present at Jesus' baptism ... let's see whether your answers will hold up to what Scripture in fact does say, rather than contradicting Scripture in favor of later church creeds and dogmas ...

    Why does all of Christendom see the trinity and you do not?

    First, why did you not answer my questions in my last post to which you replied?
    Next, not all of Christendom sees and believes in the trinity ...Furthermore, I would add that much of Christendom does not actually take a look at Scripture but instead "blindly" takes in what they are fed by the institution denomination of which they are members and whose dogmas they are fed as if these were the Word of God

    Have they been wrong all this time and you and your little sect are now right? Extreme hubris on your part?

    The early Christians did not believe in the Trinity, and there have been groups throughout the centuries since who did not believe in the Trinity, despite being persecuted even to the point of being burned at the stake b Trinitarians for not believing in the Trinity ... Yes, much of so-called Christendom has been victim to a great seduction and been wrong.

    Christianity is the only religion to worship God in trinity. Any calling themselves Christians who do not, do not belong to Christendom but are a cult of Christendom.

    You got it wrong again. Biblically, any one calling themselves “Christians” who DOES worship a “Trinity” does not belong to biblical Christendom, but rather are in false doctrine masquerading as “Christianity.”

    To answer your question on another thread, no, I was not “raised UPC” (nor am I now a member of the UPC). I used to attend Trinitarian churches, until I began to search the Scriptures tenaciously...which then forced me to exchange Trinitarianism for biblical Christianity & Monotheism.

    Then I studied original biblical languages (e.g., Hebrew & Greek), and that really held me hostage to abandon Trinitarianism if I would be honest w. the biblical data. In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

    Doesn't this single passage destroy your non trinitarian position? I also have some other questions about your beliefs later.

    “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Dave_L said:
    Doesn't this single passage destroy your non trinitarian position? I also have some other questions about your beliefs later.
    “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

    How does this passage supposedly do what you think it does?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Doesn't this single passage destroy your non trinitarian position? I also have some other questions about your beliefs later.
    “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

    How does this passage supposedly do what you think it does?

    How far would you get if you called three witnesses to the stand? The baker, the custodian, and the clerk. And they were all the same person? Three witnesses? A "oneness" shyster might try this but it wouldn't suit the jury.

  • @Homeskillet said:
    You got it wrong again. Biblically, any one calling themselves “Christians” who DOES worship a “Trinity” does not belong to biblical Christendom, but rather are in false doctrine masquerading as “Christianity.”

    Please help me understand what is Biblical Christianity from your perspective. What is Truth ?
    Disclaimer: my perspective is currently being a follower of the Way since Jesus said: "I AM The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." in John 14:6 while my past includes a time after declaring Jesus is Lord, where my heart and actions gave a Holy Righteous Jealous God reason to blot my name out of His book of life. Thankful for prayers of others so personally had choice to continue my miserable existence OR to trust 1 John 1:9

    Then I studied original biblical languages (e.g., Hebrew & Greek), and that really held me hostage to abandon Trinitarianism if I would be honest w. the biblical data. In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

    Please elaborate about the journey away, which sounds like opposite direction from my own prayers and studies where original language is helping me appreciate more about God's Love <3
    Personally experienced study of Greek providing new meaning for phrase "That's Greek to me."

    Keep Smiling :smile:

  • @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Doesn't this single passage destroy your non trinitarian position? I also have some other questions about your beliefs later.
    “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

    How does this passage supposedly do what you think it does?

    How far would you get if you called three witnesses to the stand? The baker, the custodian, and the clerk. And they were all the same person? Three witnesses? A "oneness" shyster might try this but it wouldn't suit the jury.

    And this is exactly one of many reasons Scripture demands that I abort the “Trinity” doctrine in exchange for biblical Christianity/Monotheism. In every single debate I have ever done (whether a public-moderated polemic, online, or on the streets), Trinitarians appeal to three human beings as the reflection of their Godhead hypothesis.

    The problem w. such an idea is obvious since your baker, custodian, and clerk are each SEPARATE BEINGS and not merely “distinct persons” as Trinitarians polly-parrot from their beloved creeds (while giving mere lip service to “sola scriptura”). Each has three separate centers of consciousness apart from the others, can act & think independent of the others, etc.

    How on earth the Trinitarian can still feign “monotheism” is beyond me. It’s like holding up an orange and saying “See my apple?”

    The verse is referring to more than one source of witness (the omnipresent/invisible God & His Son, who is this self-same God enfleshed [I Tim. 3.16; yes I know about the variant reading in this vs.])...not separate God-persons entirely unknown to the OT Hebrews (whom Jesus said “know what they worship”).

    Or, would you seriously argue that your Trinity each possesses separate, co-eternal minds...that no OT saint knew existed?

    My blog explains more than I have the time to explain here (currently taking Hebrew, Greek II & NT Exegesis).

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    @Homeskillet said:
    You got it wrong again. Biblically, any one calling themselves “Christians” who DOES worship a “Trinity” does not belong to biblical Christendom, but rather are in false doctrine masquerading as “Christianity.”

    Please help me understand what is Biblical Christianity from your perspective. What is Truth ?
    Disclaimer: my perspective is currently being a follower of the Way since Jesus said: "I AM The Way, The Truth, and The Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." in John 14:6 while my past includes a time after declaring Jesus is Lord, where my heart and actions gave a Holy Righteous Jealous God reason to blot my name out of His book of life. Thankful for prayers of others so personally had choice to continue my miserable existence OR to trust 1 John 1:9

    Then I studied original biblical languages (e.g., Hebrew & Greek), and that really held me hostage to abandon Trinitarianism if I would be honest w. the biblical data. In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

    Please elaborate about the journey away, which sounds like opposite direction from my own prayers and studies where original language is helping me appreciate more about God's Love <3
    Personally experienced study of Greek providing new meaning for phrase "That's Greek to me."

    Keep Smiling :smile:

    Thank you for your gracious remarks. Presently I am snowed under w. courses & pastor a church, so I wouldn’t really have the time to expound. However, my blog that I linked earlier goes into depth on these issues (my apologies).

    Simply, we believe that biblical Christianity emphasizes rigorous exegesis of the biblical data (preferably in its original languages), allows God’s Word to speak uninterrupted and subsequently bows the knee to the sovereignty of His instructions.

    Someone told me about this forum & I decided to peak in. Will tag back in when I am able 👍🏻.

    God bless!

  • @Wolfgang said:

    @Homeskillet said:
    ...
    ... In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

    Well said ...

    From my observation over several decades, I have come to the conclusion that Trinity adherents hold their doctrine to be God's Word as stated in the Bible ... and subsequently reading Scripture through Trinity colored glasses.

    I couldn’t agree more. For ex., I read John 1.1 for years before I ever heard that Trinitarians seriously attempt to force the Trinity into these passages...and it never even crossed my mind just reading the Bible alone.

    Simply, the biblical text standing alone & unaided by religious reckoning will NEVER lead to the Trinitarian position. It has to be crammed into the Scriptures.

    God bless.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Homeskillet said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Doesn't this single passage destroy your non trinitarian position? I also have some other questions about your beliefs later.
    “It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” (John 8:17–19) (KJV 1900)

    How does this passage supposedly do what you think it does?

    How far would you get if you called three witnesses to the stand? The baker, the custodian, and the clerk. And they were all the same person? Three witnesses? A "oneness" shyster might try this but it wouldn't suit the jury.

    And this is exactly one of many reasons Scripture demands that I abort the “Trinity” doctrine in exchange for biblical Christianity/Monotheism. In every single debate I have ever done (whether a public-moderated polemic, online, or on the streets), Trinitarians appeal to three human beings as the reflection of their Godhead hypothesis.

    The problem w. such an idea is obvious since your baker, custodian, and clerk are each SEPARATE BEINGS and not merely “distinct persons” as Trinitarians polly-parrot from their beloved creeds (while giving mere lip service to “sola scriptura”). Each has three separate centers of consciousness apart from the others, can act & think independent of the others, etc.

    How on earth the Trinitarian can still feign “monotheism” is beyond me. It’s like holding up an orange and saying “See my apple?”

    The verse is referring to more than one source of witness (the omnipresent/invisible God & His Son, who is this self-same God enfleshed [I Tim. 3.16; yes I know about the variant reading in this vs.])...not separate God-persons entirely unknown to the OT Hebrews (whom Jesus said “know what they worship”).

    Or, would you seriously argue that your Trinity each possesses separate, co-eternal minds...that no OT saint knew existed?

    My blog explains more than I have the time to explain here (currently taking Hebrew, Greek II & NT Exegesis).

    You must interpret the OT by the NT. The plurality of the Godhead is abundantly clear when you see it in this manner.

    Plurality in the Godhead OT

    “And God (plural) said, Let us (plural) make man in our (plural) image (singular), after our (plural) likeness: and let them (plural) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man (singular) in his own image (singular), in the image (singular) of God (plural) created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:26–27) (KJV 1900)

    A human example of plurality;

    “And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” (Genesis 11:4) (KJV 1900)

    “And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.” (Genesis 11:3) (KJV 1900)

    God as plural again;

    God said: “Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” (Genesis 11:7) (KJV 1900)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Dave_L said:
    Plurality in the Godhead OT
    “And God (plural) said, ....
    ....

    Dave_L, "God" is NOT plural but singular ... plural would be "Gods".

    This already ends your whole argument as it is based on false premises. There is no such thing as "plurality in the Godhead"

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Plurality in the Godhead OT
    “And God (plural) said, ....
    ....

    Dave_L, "God" is NOT plural but singular ... plural would be "Gods".

    This already ends your whole argument as it is based on false premises. There is no such thing as "plurality in the Godhead"

    Plurality in the ONE Godhead.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593
    edited January 22

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Dave_L, "God" is NOT plural but singular ... plural would be "Gods".
    This already ends your whole argument as it is based on false premises. There is no such thing as "plurality in the Godhead"

    Plurality in the ONE Godhead.

    ?? no ... that plural would be "Godheads"

    @Dave_L , it really doesn't matter what or how you try ... the true God if the Bible is only One Single Spirit Being ... HE is not a "plurality" of any kind or anything.

    What you are promoting is a "pantheon" (a group of three Gods, a Trio of Gods), and since you correctly realize that such contradicts big time what Scripture teaches, you just insist that the three Gods are not three Gods, but are only one "Godhead" ... in truth nothing different than a God-Trio, a God-group of THREE GODS.

    You know, labeling and claiming that "peanuts" are "beans" does not produce beans.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,286

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Dave_L, "God" is NOT plural but singular ... plural would be "Gods".
    This already ends your whole argument as it is based on false premises. There is no such thing as "plurality in the Godhead"

    Plurality in the ONE Godhead.

    ?? no ... that plural would be "Godheads"

    @Dave_L , it really doesn't matter what or how you try ... the true God if the Bible is only One Single Spirit Being ... HE is not a "plurality" of any kind or anything.

    What you are promoting is a "pantheon" (a group of three Gods, a Trio of Gods), and since you correctly realize that such contradicts big time what Scripture teaches, you just insist that the three Gods are not three Gods, but are only one "Godhead" ... in truth nothing different than a God-Trio, a God-group of THREE GODS.

    You know, labeling and claiming that "peanuts" are "beans" does not produce beans.

    You could easily grasp what I mean if you wanted to.

  • @Homeskillet said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Homeskillet said:
    ...
    ... In sum, honesty w. God’s Word forced me to walk away from Trinitarianism.

    Well said ...

    From my observation over several decades, I have come to the conclusion that Trinity adherents hold their doctrine to be God's Word as stated in the Bible ... and subsequently reading Scripture through Trinity colored glasses.

    I couldn’t agree more. For ex., I read John 1.1 for years before I ever heard that Trinitarians seriously attempt to force the Trinity into these passages...and it never even crossed my mind just reading the Bible alone.

    My understanding of John 1:1 helps me know all of The Word was being God while God is more than The Word.
    Personally not know if label "Trinitarian" fits me (since Trinity and Trinitarian are not words found in the Bible), which is similar to @Wolfgang pointing out that the phrase "God the Son" is not in hundreds of English Bibles. Have used term "Triune" to describe a community of three intelligent persona's within One God (intimate Love) => https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/12225/#Comment_12225
    John chapter 1 of The Word (God) becoming human flesh reflects prophecy in 2nd Samuel chapter 7 (about 1,000 years prior to fulfillment). To me, forever is an attribute of God within the context of 2 Samuel 7:11-16 (LEB) "And יהוהYahweh declares to you that יהוהYahweh will build a house for you. When your days are full and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you who will go out from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He will build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be a father to him, and he will be a son for me, whom I will punish when he does wrong, with a rod of men and with blows of ⌊human beings⌋. But my loyal love shall not depart from him as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before you; your throne shall be established forever.” 

    W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), 2 Sa 7:11–16.
    Praying Psalm 119:18 followed by rereading/pondering prayer in John 17 provides insight into intense Love relationship between the Son (God the Word) and the Father (God the Will). Truly Father and Son are One.

    Simply, the biblical text standing alone & unaided by religious reckoning will NEVER lead to the Trinitarian position. It has to be crammed into the Scriptures.

    Thankful for King David penning Psalm 51 (after confrontation by Nathan about the sins David committed with BathSheba and murder of Uriah), which cries out for cleansing from sins along with God's Holy Spirit.
    Thankful for prayer plus reading/pondering Isaiah 63 today that has "Holy Spirit" in verses 10 and 11. Also prayerfully pondering spirit in Daniel 5:11 (chapter context is Belshatzer party with handwriting on the wall) along with Acts 5:1-11 declaring that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

    God bless.

    Keep Smiling :smile:

  • @Mitchell said:

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.(KJV 1611)

    If one, therefore, believes in the One true God and accepts The Messiah known as Jesus(sic)/Yeshua (and also believes in the Holy Spirit) is it really necessary for them to accept, believe, or understand the 'systematic' doctrine of Trinity?
    Step one: Answer Yes, Maybe, or No
    Step two: Provide Scriptural references
    Step three: Explain and elaborate on how each of those scriptural references leads you to your conclusion(s).

    Thankful for 1st Thessalonians chapter 5 having many Greek verbs in the imperative mood (more than a suggestion):
    Be at peace among yourselves.
    And we urge you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, console the discouraged, help the sick, be patient toward all people. See to it that no one pays back evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue good toward one another and toward all people.
    Rejoice always, pray constantly, give thanks in everything; for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, who also will do this.
    Brothers, pray for us.

    W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), 1 Th 5:13–25.

    Personally teach all Bible translations are a commentary of the original text. Humans are not God so all human stuff: e.g. Commentaries, Creeds, Doctrines, Dogmas, Study Notes, ... need to be tested. Some human stuff is helpful for learning more about God (e.g. culture of original writers) while other human stuff belongs in the trash. Encourage everyone to test everything so can hold on to what is good. God is good. :smiley:

    While Giving Thanks for everything, have cried out to God many times about not liking nor understanding. Bible has many examples: Job, Joseph, King David, Asaph, ... Thankful for Holy Spirit conviction of sin and Teaching being peaceful & specific. Shalom is a better word for peace that also includes blessings+. Words describe while failing to communicate the awesome wonder & magnitude of God <3

    Thankful God prays for His believers in accordance with God's Will <3
    Romans 8 includes: Similarly, the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we don’t know how to pray the way we should. But the Spirit himself pleads on our behalf with groanings too deep for words; and the one who searches hearts knows exactly what the Spirit is thinking, because his pleadings for God’s people accord with God’s will.

    David H. Stern, Complete Jewish Bible: An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament), 1st ed. (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications, 1998), Ro 8:26–27.

    Thankful for Paul's prayer in Ephesians chapter 3 to search every dimension for God's Love. Humanly will never complete the search, but keep searching. Thankful God wants us to keep searching and growing in Him <3

    Keep Smiling :smile:

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,593

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Thankful God prays for His believers in accordance with God's Will <3

    God prays ??? To Whom would God pray ???

    My Bible clearly teaches that HUMANS pray TO GOD ... but nowhere is there any mention or instruction that GOD prays

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,904

    ..> @Wolfgang said:

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Thankful God prays for His believers in accordance with God's Will <3

    God prays ??? To Whom would God pray ???

    My Bible clearly teaches that HUMANS pray TO GOD ... but nowhere is there any mention or instruction that GOD prays

    Mr. Wolfgang,
    I can't speak for @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, but for starter have you not read:

    • 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    • 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God (Ro 8:26–27 NKJV).

    Until Mr. @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, responses to your question, how do you understand Romans 8:26-27? CM

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