Jesus - The Messiah - God?

C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

Jesus is known for many things and by many titles or names. Many to this day, refuses to acknowledge him as Messiah-Lord-God. Why is this?

  • Is Jesus Messiah-King or Messiah-Savior?
  • The Messiah-King or Messiah-Savior is God?
  • Is Messiah just a human and or divine figure?
  • The Messiah is this common-ground between Judaism and Christianity?
  • What does the Bible have to say of the "Messiah" in the OT and NT?

To start, please note, in the OT, Daniel's references to Christ match Him too closely to have been merely the product of human speculation:

  • On earth -- He was one "like a son of the gods" (Dan 3:25).
  • In heaven -- "one like a son of man" (Dan 7:13).
  • In Daniel. 8 -- we find Him as "the Prince of princes" (Dan 8:25).
  • In chap. 9 -- as "the Anointed One, the ruler" (Dan 9:25).

Jesus was the God-man, the Messiah-Prince!

In addition, Dan 11:22, at the very center of a narrative spanning all of Dan 10-12, is a reference to Christ on the cross as the "prince of the covenant"— swept away, along with an overwhelming army of others, through a process of judicial murder, on falsified charges of disloyalty to Caesar. cf-- See John 18:28-40; 19:12-16.

Peter in his preaching emphasized that Jesus, whom the Jews crucified, was the Messiah. In early Christian tradition, Dan 9:24-27 was generally held to be a Messianic prophecy. The pronoun often translated "he" in Dan 9:27. "Since the Prince of the previous passage (vs. 26) is not a Roman prince . . . the 'He' in this verse refers to the Messiah Prince, or Jesus Christ historically". The antecedent of the pronoun "he," then, according to this argument, is the "Messiah, the Prince" of vs. 25..."

Gurney said, "It is highly probable that the 'he' of verse 27 refers back to the ‘anointed one, since He is the principal character in verse 26." Oh, it's Jesus! CM


SOURCES:

  • Jerome 's Commentary on Danieltrans. Gleason L. Archer, Jr. (Grand Rapids. MI: Baker Book House, 1958). 95-110
  • Otto Zockler. The Book o f the Prophet Danieltrans. James Strong. A Commentary- on the Holy Scriptures, vol 13 (New York: Scribner. Armstrong & Co.. 1876). 205-17
  • Montgomery, The Book o f Daniel394-401
  • Robert M. Gurney, 1980). God in Control (Worthing: H. E. Walter. 1980) pg 114
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  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,064
    edited October 22

    Jesus is known for many things and by many titles or names. Many to this day, refuses to acknowledge him as Messiah-Lord-God. Why is this?

    As for me, it is because such an idea of Messiah = God is contradicting Scripture.

    Is Jesus Messiah-King or Messiah-Savior?

    Both ...

    The Messiah-King or Messiah-Savior is God?

    Neither

    Is Messiah just a human and or divine figure?

    Messiah is a human being ... as God had promised already shortly after the fall of man, and which promise became reality in the man Jesus of Nazareth

    The Messiah is this common-ground between Judaism and Christianity?

    Well ... seems like Chritianity believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Judaism to this day rejects Jesus as the Messiah ... what is common about those two positions?

    What does the Bible have to say of the "Messiah" in the OT and NT?

    Many things ... starting out with the truth that he would be a human being, a man.

    Jesus was the God-man, the Messiah-Prince!

    No ... nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention of any "God-man" (of "man-God") ... such ideas are found in ancient (and more modern) mythologies.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    @Wolfgang said: "Well ... seems like Chritianity [Christianity] believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Judaism to this day rejects Jesus as the Messiah ... what is common about those two positions"?

    Similarities: Christians and Jews await the Messiah.

    Differences:

    • As for the the Christians: The Messiah has already come and gone, and will come again-- Second Coming (John 14:1-3). For Christians, the Messiah is Jesus of Nazareth who died on a cross in 31 C.E. and was risen from the dead three days later.
    • As for the Jews: The Messiah remains mystery. Is it King David? Is he a suffering leper like Joseph, or maybe a prophet like Elijah? Could he be Israel the nation, or more simply an era?

    I came across an anecdote about Martin Buber who was addressing an audience of Catholic priests attributed to Elie Wiesel's book:

    He said something like this: “What is the difference between Jews and Christians? We all await the Messiah. You believe He has already come and gone, while we do not. I therefore propose that we await Him together. And when He appears, we can ask Him: were You here before?” Then he paused and added: “And I hope that at that moment I will be close enough to whisper in his ear, ‘For the love of heaven, don’t answer.’”

    More on the Messiah next time, in contrast. CM


    SOURCE:

    Elie Wiesel, All Rivers Run to the Sea (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996), pp. 354-355.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,064
    edited October 23

    Similarities: Christians and Jews await the Messiah.

    Well ... Christians no longer await the Messiah since they believe that he - the man Jesus of Nazareth - has already been born, carried out his ministry and accomplished the mission for which God had sent him.

    Jews reject the Messiah and are awaiting some fiction of their own theological ideas.

    No real similarities exist there ...

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    The expectation of the Messiah or Savior:

    • Judaism goes back all the way to biblical times.
    • part of every prayer-- in every service.
    • The Messiah is the messenger of God, something like a prophet, who has a message from God about this time and who will do the necessary actions.

    A case can be made that the proclamations of Peter and God the Father, that Jesus is the Son of God in Matthew chapters 16 and 17, is more in line with the overarching themes of Matthew who spends much time telling us who Jesus is.

    • In Matthew, Jesus, the Messiah, is not only of royal Davidic lineage, but also the divine Son of God on a mission of redemption.
    • Matthew's genealogy, shows how Jesus is a descendant of both Abraham and David.
    • Matthew makes clear to his Jewish readers that the Old Testament prophecies related to the Messiah had been fulfilled in Jesus.
    • Matthew employs about fifty quotations from the Old Testament.
    • The book of Isaiah in particular has exercised a great influence on Matthew’s gospel. A chart showing where Matthew uses quotations from the OT. Listed are 13 instances of Matthew quoting or alluding to Isaiah. See website for more detail: http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Matthew-OTQuotations.htm

    Matthew could really be called the "gospel of Matthew as the gospel of fulfillment".

    • The birth narrative (in particular Matt 1:18-25) defends Jesus against charges that His birth was illegitimate.
    • The information concerning the bribing of the Roman guard at the grave by members of the Jewish Council (information exclusively reported in Matthew 28:11-15) proved the accusation that the disciples had stolen Jesus’ body was not so.

    The facts that Jesus’ life shows the divine nature of His origins and ministry. Only the divinely appointed Messiah. What are the chances an ordinary man's life matches Jesus?

    Truth found truth shared! CM

    SOURCES:

    • David L. Turner, Matthew, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, Robert W. Yarbrough and Robert H. Stein, eds. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2008), 15.
    • Gijs Van Den Brink, “Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew,” (1997).


  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,064

    The expectation of the Messiah or Savior:

    * Judaism goes back all the way to biblical times.


    Is "Judaism" the modern day "Jewish religion (in its various facets)"? Or are you speaking about the Biblical tribes of the sons of Israel and their religion as base don the OT scriptures?


    * part of every prayer-- in every service.


    Whose prayer? prayer of adherents to Jewish religion / Judaism / etc ? or prayers of Christians (both of the circumcision and the uncircumcision) ?


    * The Messiah is the messenger of God, something like a prophet, who has a message from God about this time and who will do the necessary actions.


    This point very plainly states that the Messiah is himself NOT God ... or do you mean to tell us that a prophet of God = God ?? a messenger of God = God ??

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    "Judaism" the modern day "Jewish religion (in its various facets)" has a longing for a Messiah and the longing for the period of time that this figure represents goes back all the way to biblical times.

    In the Jewish view, the Messiah is the messenger of God, something like a prophet, who has a message from God about this time and who will do the necessary actions.

    There is a difference between the Jewish Messiah, as described in Old Testament scriptures, the Tanakh, and the Messiah described in the New Testament scriptures.

    For Jews, the Messiah is a human being and not a God, not a divinity. The Jews imagined the Messiah as someone who would be a national hero, even a military figure. Could this be why they rejected Jesus at his first appearing?

    The word “Messiah” in Hebrew means “anointed.” An anointing with oil is an ancient ceremony for coronation of a king, so, essentially, the title “Messiah” is “king,” a national leader. That’s how the prophets imagined the Messiah. They believed the Messiah would be a descendant of King David.

    The God of heaven has powers and powers far beyond the comprehension of his created beings (man). Do you, Wolfgang, know the complete mind of God? Is it possible that God can do and be beyond what your limited-mind can process?

    "The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29 -- KJV) .

    Faith exceed reason. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,064

    There is a difference between the Jewish Messiah, as described in Old Testament scriptures, the Tanakh, and the Messiah described in the New Testament scriptures.


    So you tell us that God revealed two different Messiah's in Scripture? or perhaps God changed one Messiah from the OT Messiah to a NT Messiah? Your idea here actually says that Jesus of Nazareth was NOT the Messiah promised in the OT scriptures and thus not the fulfillment of those prophecies.


    For Jews, the Messiah is a human being and not a God, not a divinity. The Jews imagined the Messiah as someone who would be a national hero, even a military figure. Could this be why they rejected Jesus at his first appearing?


    Well, at least the Jews were right in their understanding that the Messiah is a human being and not a God. They were quite wrong in their interpretations of other OT passages expecting the Messiah to be a military or political figure ... and since Jesus did not meet these ideas, they rejected him as that promised Messiah.

    Many of those calling themselves Christians are wrong in their making the Messiah to be God rather than a human being.


    The word “Messiah” in Hebrew means “anointed.” An anointing with oil is an ancient ceremony for coronation of a king, so, essentially, the title “Messiah” is “king,” a national leader. That’s how the prophets imagined the Messiah. They believed the Messiah would be a descendant of King David.


    No, the title "Messiah" is not essentially "king", as not only kings were anointed but also high priest and prophet. Well, the Messiah wsa a descendant according to the flesh of king David (which again shows the fallacy and silliness of many Christians' idea that the Messiah is God, which would make David "the father of God" )


    The God of heaven has powers and powers far beyond the comprehension of his created beings (man). Do you, Wolfgang, know the complete mind of God? Is it possible that God can do and be beyond what your limited-mind can process?


    There are plenty of things which God does and can do which I do not understand .... BUT - please note - I am not and never have argued any point which was not already revealed in Scripture by presenting to you and others the rather plain and clear Scripture evidence for my understanding.


    "The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut. 29:29 -- KJV) .


    Indeed, BUT - again, please note - I am stating what has already been revealed in Scripture !!

    You seem to forget that those adhering to and propagating the trinity doctrine are the ones who claim to know and understand that "God is Three in One", etc ... and even admit that this is actually really a mystery (something that has NOT been revealed !!! ). They actually claim to know something and even teach it to others which in reality they say is a mystery and has not been revealed .... flat out claiming the opposite of Deu 29:29 states !!


    Faith exceed reason. CM


    Faith is based on what God has revealed (not what man claims to be a mystery).

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    Wolfgang,

    The Messiah in Late Judaism can be viewed in Jesus' question in Matthew 22:42 (NRSV), to the Pharisaic scholars: “What do you think of the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “Messiah” is the Anglicized form of Hebrew mashiach, which is rendered in the Greek Testament as either Messias (a transliteration) or Christos (a translation). It means “anointed,” but especially a certain person who is anointed. In ancient Israel a person was made king not by coronation, but by anointing—pouring oil on his head. See, for example, 1 Samuel 10:1; 16:1, 12-13.

    Priests were also anointed, but the expression is used far more frequently of kings. The noun: 

    • "Mashiach" occurs 39 times in the Tanach. Of these occurrences about
    • 27 refer to a king
    • 6 to a priest
    • 2 to patriarchs
    • The rest to various others (people, Cyrus, Saul’s shield).

    The importance of such calculations in the first century is hinted at by some of the language of the New Testament. The Gospel of Mark thus summarizes the message of Yeshua when he began his preaching ministry in Galilee: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news” (Mark 1:15). Paul said, “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law” (Galatians 4:4).

    The Talmudic passage transits from the question of when the Messiah will come to that of the necessary preconditions. “Rab said: All the predestined dates have passed, and the matter depends only on repentance and good deeds.” There follows a debate by Tannaim. Eliezer ben Hyrcanus argues that the coming of the Messiah can be hastened by repentance, while Joshua ben Hananiah insists that all depends on the sovereign purpose of God, and human beings.

    PS. Just a little more information to enrich the conversation. CM

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