language meaningful in Scripture ?

2

Comments

  • @Wolfgang God can NOT become a man

    Please provide scripture support for assertion: "God can NOT become a man"

    Counter example is prophecy in Isaiah 9:1-7 describing future Galilee that includes a child is born, who is Mighty God.

    Another counter example is the seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15 that predates Isaiah 7:14 prophecy about Immanuel with fulfilment recorded in Matthew 1:23

    Torah ("Teaching", "The Law") lasted until the child of promise in Galations 3:19 plus future war against her seed in Revelation 12:17

    @Wolfgang John 1:1 -- "... and the Word was God"

    Suggest researching "Colwell's Rule" with John 1:1 implications: e.g. Chapter 6 in Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, 3rd ed. plus Application of Colwell’s Construction to John 1:1 starting on page 266 in Greek Grammar beyond the Basics

    Also suggest researching purpose of Greek definite article being a finger pointer so The Word in John 1:1 is The Word in John 1:14

    The verb "was" in John 1:1 is imperfect, which has continuous action in past time. One way to translate John 1:1c is "... and The Word was being God" (all of The Word was being God while God was being more than The Word, which agrees with singular and plural pronouns for plural elohim). The verbs in John 1:14 are aorist so simply says The Word became flesh and dwelt amoung us (humans).

    @Wolfgang However, you seem not to notice that with your comment about "absolute monotheistic faith" you actually declare that you do not believe in absolute monotheism but in something which is not really monotheism but something else which is then labeled "monotheism" but in truth and in an absolute sense is not monotheism but polytheism.

    Plural unity belief in One God is different than polytheism. Absolute monotheism believes One God has One voice. Plural unity believes One God has Three voices in One commUnity of Love who intimately share One Name. One Heart, One Soul, One Strength. All of Love is being God while God is more than Love. Awesome aspect of God's Love is desire for every human to be in His commUnity of Love.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821
    edited July 2019

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Plural unity belief in One God is different than polytheism.

    Plural Unity belief is a deception in form of a re-labeling ... the reality is that it only claims (rather loudly) that THREE Gods are (mysteriously? mystically? supposedly unexplainably? ???? ) "ONE unit" of Gods and then changes that idea into are "One plurality God"

    Three cars remain three cars ... whether they are the same model of the same producer or are used by the same person, etc does NOT change the truth that they are THREE cars and not "one plurality car or unit of car".

    The Plural Unity belief is a misnomer and deception by which straight forward "THREE Gods polytheism" is falsely labeled and taught as "Monotheism" in order to deceive many who know that the Bible is not teaching Polytheism into foolishly, ignorantly or harmlessly following a polytheism religion which is labeled "Christian".

    Once the deception is laid bare, folks ought to immediately recognize what their "Trinity" polytheism false teachers have been doing to them ... Unfortunately, the hold of that false religion on its followers is rather strong in terms of "evoking emotions", in terms of "church peer pressure", in terms of "threat if ex-communication from church or fellowship" etc. etc.

  • Plural unity describes plural and singular pronouns being used in Hebrew scriptures to describe One God. OT Phrase "The Lord your God" occurs nearly 400 times in English translations, which has singular YHVH Lord with plural elohim GOD.

    John 17:11 (ESV) Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

    One God shares One Name YHVH between two voices while eternally being God. Three voices enable One God to truly exhibit Love for One Another that includes every human with desire for every human to be in One God's commUnity of Love.

    Shall clay say to the potter that the potter cannot have more than one voice becuase the clay was made with one voice ?

    Amazing is the variety of human shapes, sizes, colors, and voices resulting from one breath of life by One God into Adam (dust).

    Can one car claim two others as parents ? (so concur three cars are three cars that cannot combine to become one since three cars remain completely separate from one another. Idolizing three cars is polytheism.)

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    John 17:11 (ESV) Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

    One God shares One Name YHVH between two voices while eternally being God.

    ??? Do you not realize that "Jesus" is NOT the same name as YHWH ???

    I suggest you use your Logos library and read the verse in some different English Bibles, and you will perhaps notice that John 17:11 is not speaking about a name that was given but about people that were given (cp KJV => "Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. ")

    Shall clay say to the potter that the potter cannot have more than one voice becuase the clay was made with one voice ?

    So you think that the potter can become clay and clay become the potter?

    Amazing is the variety of human shapes, sizes, colors, and voices resulting from one breath of life by One God into Adam (dust).

    More non-sense sweet nebulous talk to distract from the simple truth and hide the error of your theology

    Can one car claim two others as parents ? (so concur three cars are three cars that cannot combine to become one since three cars remain completely separate from one another. Idolizing three cars is polytheism.)

    Well ... neither can three Gods actually ever be one God ... they remain THREE Gods [it does not matter what you or whoever want to call them]. Anyone who has TWO, THREE, or more as GOD is following non-biblical pagan polytheistic religion.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    John 17:11 (ESV) Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.

    One God shares One Name YHVH between two voices while eternally being God.

    @Wolfgang ??? Do you not realize that "Jesus" is NOT the same name as YHWH ???

    @Wolfgang I suggest you use your Logos library ...

    My own stilted literal English translation (with propositional outlines in my Logos 8):

    d Address (e) πάτερ ἅγιε,  Father Holy,

    e Request τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου  protect them in the name of you

    f Characterization ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι,  which you had given me

    g Purpose ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς. that they be one as we

     Michael W. Holmes, The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (Lexham Press; Society of Biblical Literature, 2011–2013), Jn 17:11.

    Parsing ᾧ => pronoun, relative, dative, singular, neuter

    Pronoun ᾧ number, case, & gender match ὀνόματί (name) so Holy Father had given His Name to Yeshua. Jesus is a name that Yeshua did not hear when He lived on earth. Transliteration of Latin name on the cruxificion sign is Iesus, which morphed to Jesus before any English translation. The name Yeshua means YHVH salvation.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Shall clay say to the potter that the potter cannot have more than one voice because the clay was made with one voice ?

    @Wolfgang So you think that the potter can become clay and clay become the potter?

    Potter made clay out of nothing with plans for potter essence to dwell in one clay vessel for the purpose of redeeming other clay vessels that want to receive free gift of redemption so could become Holy like the potter. Unredeemed clay has a dark destination. Clay can be deceived to think clay can become the potter. Clay can pray to potter for diety understanding.

    Stilted literal English translation of John 14:6 (with propositional outlines in my Logos 8 plus Greek word order emphasis)

    6 a Response λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς·  is saying he the Jesus

    b Pronouncement Ἐγώ εἰμι  I, I AM

    c List-Item ἡ ὁδὸς  the way

    d List-Item καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια  and the truth

    e List-Item καὶ ἡ ζωή·  also the life:

    f Denial οὐδεὶς ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸν πατέρα  no one is coming toward the Father

    g Concession εἰ μὴ διʼ ἐμοῦ.   if not through me

     Michael W. Holmes, The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (Lexham Press; Society of Biblical Literature, 2011–2013), Jn 14:6.

    Jesus taught the only way to God the Father is through Jesus.

    While composing reply, Holy Spirit helped me understand what unbelieving Jews heard Jesus say in John 10:30 "I and The Father are One God." that outraged them so those unbelieving Jews wanted to kill Jesus for their perception of blasphemy.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821
    edited July 2019

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus taught the only way to God the Father is through Jesus.

    And why do you then teach contrary to Jesus that Jesus is actually himself God (supposedly in addition to being the way to God)??

    The way to my wife's heart is NOT my wife ... Do you realize that those who think the way itself is the person or place to where or who it leads will never arrive there because they will stop short thinking they have already arrived.

    While composing reply, Holy Spirit helped me understand what unbelieving Jews heard Jesus say in John 10:30 "I and The Father are One God."

    That's rather "funny" (actually, not very funny at all) ... Your "Holy Spirit" helped you to understand words that were not spoken .... hmn. I would say, there are a few problems with your claim. Using my quite extensive Logos 8 library Bible versions comparison of what they report Jesus saying in John 10:30, there was NO Bible translation (English, German, French, Greek) with the words your Holy Spirit helped you to understand.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Jesus taught the only way to God the Father is through Jesus.

    @Wolfgang And why do you then teach contrary to Jesus that Jesus is actually himself God (supposedly in addition to being the way to God)??

    Jesus is The Word (eternally God) who became human flesh. The Word of One God is the way to be in One God's commUnity of Love.

    @Wolfgang The way to my wife's heart is NOT my wife ... Do you realize that those who think the way itself is the person or place to where or who it leads will never arrive there because they will stop short thinking they have already arrived.

    Ephesians 5:25-33 (ESV with Greek emphasis) Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. 

    Mystery & Magnitute of God's Love is profound.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    While composing reply, Holy Spirit helped me understand what unbelieving Jews heard Jesus say in John 10:30 "I and The Father are One God."

    @Wolfgang That's rather "funny" (actually, not very funny at all) ... Your "Holy Spirit" helped you to understand words that were not spoken .... hmn. I would say, there are a few problems with your claim. Using my quite extensive Logos 8 library Bible versions comparison of what they report Jesus saying in John 10:30, there was NO Bible translation (English, German, French, Greek) with the words your Holy Spirit helped you to understand.

    John 14:15-17 (ESV with Greek emphasis) “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. 

    Thankful for the Spirit of Truth (in me) answering prayer to One God for help understanding God's Word. Observant Jews know scripture so only a portion is needed for entire context reference.

    John 10:28 (LEB) no one will seize them out of my hand ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου

    John 10:29 (LEB) no one can seize them from the Father’s hand ἐκ τῆς χειρὸς τοῦ πατρός

    isaiah 43:13 (LES) There is no one who rescues out of my hands ἐκ τῶν χειρῶν μου

    Logos Bible Sense lexicon has <sense = to snatch> for "seize" in John 10:28-29 and for "rescues" in Isaiah 43:13

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus , what do the verses and comments in you latest reply to my earlier post have to do with what I wrote??????

  • @Wolfgang what do the verses and comments in you latest reply to my earlier post have to do with what I wrote??????

    Please elaborate what needs clarification. Your words were quoted followed by my reply to your quoted words. In a thread about language meaningful in scripture, am experiencing your figure of speeches and human examples being a bit of distraction: e.g. What does the way to your wife's heart have to do with the way to One God for everyone ? (Proverbs 30:19 came to my mind from "wife" since wondrous is the way of Love between a man and woman so replied with profound Mystery & Magnitutude of God's Love as expressed in Ephesians 5:25-33 that includes couples plus believers are members of His body).

    One of my quirks is avoiding "Why ?" to begin a question since "Why ?" has a tendency for defensive reply (instead of objective discussion).

    As clay, my prayer to potter (One God) is speaking & writing The Truth in Love using kind words (Ephesians 4:15 & James 1:20) with desire for my words to be gracious and interesting for everyone (Colossians 4:6), which is quite challenging since God's Joy in my words can be interpreted as singing cheerfully by a heavy heart with reception described by Proverbs 25:20. My intense desire for Truthful teaching of One God (plural unity) is due to greater judgment per James 3:1-2 and Revelation 22:18-19

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    Please elaborate what needs clarification. Your words were quoted followed by my reply to your quoted words.

    So what? The problem is that you seem to NOT understand what I endeavored to put into clear and plain words.

    In a thread about language meaningful in scripture, am experiencing your figure of speeches and human examples being a bit of distraction: e.g. What does the way to your wife's heart have to do with the way to One God for everyone ?

    You provide an example of the above with your last question ...

    The claim you had made was that Jesus IS God.

    Then - in what you obviously thought supports your point - you mentioned Jesus' words that he is THE WAY TO God.

    I then pointed out that "THE WAY TO someone or some place" is NOT that someone or some place and provided that example that the way to my wife's heart is not my wife.

    Instead of using the example of "way to my wife's heart" and "my wife", I could have used "the way to Chicago" is NOT "Chicago" ... if you are in New York, and get on the way to Chicago, the road between New York and Chicago is NOT Chicago. Jesus is THE WAY TO God, and because he is THE WAY TO God, he himself cannot be God.

    All your then following elaborations about wife and love and "why?" questions and clay praying to the potter are besides the exchange and have absolutely nothing to do with the one simple point that was being discussed.

  • @Wolfgang So what? The problem is that you seem to NOT understand what I endeavored to put into clear and plain words.

    What is clear and plain to me does not match what is clear and plain to you because our faith filters are substantially different. Hence my reading is not receiving/understanding message(s) as intended.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    In a thread about language meaningful in scripture, am experiencing your figure of speeches and human examples being a bit of distraction: e.g. What does the way to your wife's heart have to do with the way to One God for everyone ?

    @Wolfgang

    You provide an example of the above with your last question ...

    The claim you had made was that Jesus IS God.

    Then - in what you obviously thought supports your point - you mentioned Jesus' words that he is THE WAY TO God.

    I then pointed out that "THE WAY TO someone or some place" is NOT that someone or some place and provided that example that the way to my wife's heart is not my wife.

    Instead of using the example of "way to my wife's heart" and "my wife", I could have used "the way to Chicago" is NOT "Chicago" ... if you are in New York, and get on the way to Chicago, the road between New York and Chicago is NOT Chicago. Jesus is THE WAY TO God, and because he is THE WAY TO God, he himself cannot be God.

    All your then following elaborations about wife and love and "why?" questions and clay praying to the potter are besides the exchange and have absolutely nothing to do with the one simple point that was being discussed.

    From my perspective, elaborations about wife and love and "why?" questions and clay praying to the potter were relevant to the current exchange of ideas. FYI: clay and potter imagery comes from Isaiah chapters 29, 41, and 64.

    Concur way between cities is not the destination city (plus observed human example has clear separation between cities).

    Personally do not know your wife so have no idea if she would agree with you about the way to her heart (plus have no idea if discussing assertion is appropriate with her). From discussions with a variety of women, humanly suspect someone with co-dependency hurt would agree with you about the way to their heart (since their value of themselves comes from others instead of One God).

    My human analogy for The Way to God is a gated community that needs someone inside to open the gate for other(s) to enter. God's commUnity of Love has a narrow gate of Righteousness that requires belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God (for Gentiles):

    Acts 16:30-34 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord יהוה Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord יהוה to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

    "Believe in the Lord Jesus ... he had believed in God" with Lord meaning יהוה God (יהוה => Adonai => κύριος => Lord)

    Jews who love the Lord יהוה G_d, but have not (yet) believed in Yeshua (יהוה Salvation) as Lord יהוה G_d for salvation (to complete their Judaism), have an older gate of Righteousness into G_d's commUnity of Love.

    Keep Smiilng 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    Mt 3:16,17 (AV)

    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    V. 16 speaks of "spirit of God" => the spirit is NOT God, but something that is given by God

    V.17 speaks of "voice from heaven" => commonly understood to be God Himself speaking, God's own voice. God speaks of Jesus as "my beloved Son", again clearly making a distinction/difference between Himself/God and the man Jesus who is God's Son

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    Mt 4,1 (AV)

    1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    Jesus was tempted of the devil ... God CANNOT be tempted (cp. Jam 1:13 (AV) - "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

    Plain, simple and as clear as can be ... Jesus is NOT God.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    Mt 16,15-17 (AV)

    15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ?

    16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Is "Christ" the same as "God"? The word "Christ" means "anointed", and in relation to Jesus refers to Him being anointed by God in heaven as God's only begotten Son (cp. Acts 10:38). It was God in heaven Who made the man Jesus "both Lord and Christ" (cp. Acts 2:36).

    How in the world then can claims be made that Christ IS God,, when Scripture is plain and clear in distinguishing between (1) God and (2) the man Jesus Christ???

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    Mt 10,24   The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.

    It has been claimed that the word "Lord [gr. kurios]" is a reference to God. There are plenty of scriptures which show such a general idea to be incorrect.

    Whether the word "lord" is a reference to God or to a man depends on the context in which it is used. Above use of the word "lord" provides a clear example that the word "lord" does not refer to God, but designates a "master" (cp the parallel phrases with (a) disciple & master and (b) servant & master),

    The fact that Jesus was addressed as Master as well as Lord by his disciples - who regarded themselves to have a status of being his servants - has nothing to do with them believing that Jesus was God.

  • Mt 3:16,17 (AV)

    16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    @Wolfgang V. 16 speaks of "spirit of God" => the spirit is NOT God, but something that is given by God

    @Wolfgang V.17 speaks of "voice from heaven" => commonly understood to be God Himself speaking, God's own voice. God speaks of Jesus as "my beloved Son", again clearly making a distinction/difference between Himself/God and the man Jesus who is God's Son

    Verse 16 does not have the word NOT (so "the spirit is NOT God" is a belief assertion). The πνεῦμα (spirit) has θεοῦ (of/from God) qualifier (describer).

    Verse 17 question: If Jesus is NOT God (natural son of Joseph and Mary), then how could God speak of Jesus as "my beloved son" ?

    What does Psalm 2:12 "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and ye perish from the way ..." mean ? (earlier in Psalm 2 is Lord יהוה Father and Son)

    Mt 4,1 (AV)

    1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    @Wolfgang Jesus was tempted of the devil ... God CANNOT be tempted (cp. Jam 1:13 (AV) - "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

    @Wolfgang Plain, simple and as clear as can be ... Jesus is NOT God.

    The devil (not God) tried to tempt lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life, but Jesus responded to each test by quoting Deuteronomy. Also after Jesus commanded the devil to go, the devil obeyed. Did d' evil testing actually tempt the fullness of deity dwelling in Jesus ? (answer of No is consistent with James 1:13)

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote

    Mt 4,1 (AV)

    1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    @Wolfgang Jesus was tempted of the devil ... God CANNOT be tempted (cp. Jam 1:13 (AV) - "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

    @Wolfgang Plain, simple and as clear as can be ... Jesus is NOT God.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    The devil (not God) tried to tempt lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life, but Jesus responded to each test by quoting Deuteronomy. Also after Jesus commanded the devil to go, the devil obeyed. Did d' evil testing actually tempt the fullness of deity dwelling in Jesus ? (answer of No is consistent with James 1:13)

    We are on incompatible ways of thinking logically and reasonably while reading the Scriptures ... when I speak about "apples" and your reply is about "vegetables" it makes no sense to further communicate.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821
    edited July 2019

    Acts 2,22  (AV)

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


    Röm 5,15   (AV)

    But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


    1Tim 2,5 (AV)

    For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Does the word "man" mean "God"? Or does that word "man" actually mean "man"?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    1Cor 8,6 (AV)

    But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

    How many does Paul mention in this verse beside the "us"? One? Two? Three? or more?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    Rev 1:1-3 (AV)

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

    2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

    Are the terms emphasized in bold clear and plain? what does "must shortly come to pass" mean? what about"for the time is at hand"? So much for what is stated about the time frame for the fulfillment of the things in the book of Revelation ... what about what is said concerning the same at the end of the book?

    Rev 22:6-7 (AV)

    6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    Does this agree with what is stated at the beginning?

    But then, why does just about every Christian group teach that "these things must not come to pass in thousands of years" ?? And why would the vast majority of Christians believe such teaching contradicting what is stated as plain as the nose on their face and let those teachers get away with it and even support them?

  • Acts 2,22 (AV)

    Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    Röm 5,15  (AV)

    But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

    1Tim 2,5 (AV)

    For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    @Wolfgang Does the word "man" mean "God"? Or does that word "man" actually mean "man"?

    Does the word "man" deny the deity of Jesus ? (clearly separate from God). My understanding of John 1:1-18 shows Jesus is The Word (eternally God) who became human: one man.

    Earlier request is still waiting: Please provide scripture support for assertion: "God can NOT become a man"

    1Cor 8,6 (AV)

    But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

    @Wolfgang How many does Paul mention in this verse beside the "us"? One? Two? Three? or more?

    One God includes one Lord יהוה Jesus Christ (in one commUnity of Love: Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

    Rev 1:1-3 (AV)

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

    2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

    @Wolfgang Are the terms emphasized in bold clear and plain? what does "must shortly come to pass" mean? what about"for the time is at hand"? So much for what is stated about the time frame for the fulfillment of the things in the book of Revelation ... what about what is said concerning the same at the end of the book?

    My human prayers include request for One God to open my eyes to behold when One God is fulfilling His prophetic plan, which includes Zechariah 9:10 (verse 9 was fulfilled ~2,000 years ago) and Zechariah 14:4 (Mount of Olives will split when Jesus physically returns)

    2 Peter 1:19-20 (AV) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    Rev 22:6-7 (AV)

    6 And he said unto me, These sayings [are] faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

    7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    @Wolfgang Does this agree with what is stated at the beginning?

    @Wolfgang But then, why does just about every Christian group teach that "these things must not come to pass in thousands of years" ?? And why would the vast majority of Christians believe such teaching contradicting what is stated as plain as the nose on their face and let those teachers get away with it and even support them?

    2 Peter 3:8-9 (AV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Many years ago, my understanding of Revelation 12:1 was symbolic language, but now know of literal fulfillment in September 2017.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus :

    Does the word "man" deny the deity of Jesus ? (clearly separate from God).

    Of course it does ... in light of Scripture even stating that "God is NOT a man ..." and Scripture NOWHERE even giving the impression that a man can be the true God, the Creator, the Almighty, etc ... Any men who thought of themselves as God and declared themselves to be God and even being worshiped as God, were NOT God (cp. the Babylonian kings, Assyrian kings, Egyptian kings (pharaohs), Roman ceasars , etc ....

    My understanding of John 1:1-18 shows Jesus is The Word (eternally God) who became human: one man.

    My suggestion would be that you don't base your understanding on the false premise to which you hold. The truth of the Biblical Scriptures is very plain and simple => Man is and can NOT be the true God; the true God is and can NOT be a man. You don't believe it ? That is your privilege. Perhaps you also cannot keep Creator and creation separate and think that a creature (man) can be the Creator (God) and visa versa?

  • @Wolfgang My suggestion would be that you don't base your understanding on the false premise to which you hold. 

    Which is more important:

    • Keeping previously learned premises firmly in place ?
    • Praying for One God to open our eyes to behold wonders in His Word ?

    Thankful for One God who has gently helped me grow in Him, which has included revising/expanding lessons learned over 30 years ago.

    @Wolfgang The truth of the Biblical Scriptures is very plain and simple => Man is and can NOT be the true God; the true God is and can NOT be a man. 

    Please provide scripture support for "one man can NOT be True God"

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus :

    Does the word "man" deny the deity of Jesus ? (clearly separate from God).

    @Wolfgang Of course it does ... in light of Scripture even stating that "God is NOT a man ..." and Scripture NOWHERE even giving the impression that a man can be the true God, the Creator, the Almighty, etc ...

    Please explain John 1:14 that cannot be a plan if God cannot become a man.

    Concur scripture in Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 states "God is not a man" while scriptures also declare God made a covenant with King David about one of David's human descendants being eternally King, which is Lord יהוה God to me.

    @Wolfgang Perhaps you also cannot keep Creator and creation separate and think that a creature (man) can be the Creator (God) and visa versa?

    Thankful for One God designing humans so one breath of life created a living man (with knowledge) from dust, which included design for The Word (eternally & fully God) to inhabit a human body thousands of years later. Normal human inheritance from male sperm (includes sin nature) did not happen in the seed of a woman when The Word became a human egg: Holy miracle inside a virgin for subsequent birth as "God with Us" and growth. God the Father remained in Holy Heaven while being pleased with Jesus, His Son. One God was in two places at the same time, which is physically impossible for humans, but One True God's ways are better than human ways.

    Observation: using "you" in a sentence, especially as the subject, provides opportunity for comment(s) that lack focus on idea(s).

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Please provide scripture support for "one man can NOT be True God"

    Not enough space here to quote for you the Bible as a whole ...

    Please explain John 1:14 that cannot be a plan if God cannot become a man.

    There is nothing to explain ... there is a simple text to read, both in v.1 and v. 14 in John 1. Of course, if you explain "word" => "Jesus" and explain "word" => "the person Who is true God", etc on the basis of your premise that God can become a human being, a man -- instead of reading what the text says -- then you arrive at the idea that God became the man Jesus.

    That such an idea / conclusion contradicts flat out what is stated 4 verses later, appears irrelevant to you ... is it because you supposedly learned the former from your "Threesome commUnity of Love" God who may freely contradict himself at any time??

    John 1:18 (KJV)

    No man hath seen God at any time; .... .

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Please provide scripture support for "one man can NOT be True God"

    @Wolfgang Not enough space here to quote for you the Bible as a whole ...

    Answer implies Bible does not have a single scripture verse that supports assertion "one man can NOT be True God" (for others to prayerfully consider) while personal belief for assertion "one man can NOT be True God" believes Bible cannot be correctly understood any other way. Which is more important: personal belief conviction OR what One True God inspired ?

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Please explain John 1:14 that cannot be a plan if God cannot become a man.

    @Wolfgang There is nothing to explain ... there is a simple text to read, both in v.1 and v. 14 in John 1. Of course, if you explain "word" => "Jesus" and explain "word" => "the person Who is true God", etc on the basis of your premise that God can become a human being, a man -- instead of reading what the text says -- then you arrive at the idea that God became the man Jesus.

    What does John 1:14 text say to you ? ("nothing to explain" and "instead of reading what the text says" seem a bit inconsistent)

    @Wolfgang That such an idea / conclusion contradicts flat out what is stated 4 verses later, appears irrelevant to you ... is it because you supposedly learned the former from your "Threesome commUnity of Love" God who may freely contradict himself at any time??

    John 1:18 (KJV)

    No man hath seen God at any time; .... .

    Remember rest of John 1:18 (AV) ...  the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

    Remember Psalm 2:7 (AV) The Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; This day have I begotten thee.

    Please explain "Kiss the Son" in Psalm 2:12 (AV) Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, And ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus I suggest you do your own explaining ... it will keep you 😀

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 2,144
    edited July 2019

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus postSmiling

    Answer implies Bible does not have a single scripture verse that supports assertion "one man can NOT be True God" (for others to prayerfully consider) while personal belief for assertion "one man can NOT be True God" believes Bible cannot be correctly understood any other way. Which is more important: personal belief conviction OR what One True God inspired ?

    My first thought as far as verses that declare a clear separation between God and humanity are two:

    Isaiah 55.89

    8 My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the LORD. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.  9 For just as the heavens are higher than the earth,  so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. 

    By definition, humans are not capable of "ways [that are] higher than [humans'] ways and... thoughts [that are] higher than [humans'] thoughts.

    Job 9.32

      32 “God is not a mortal like me,  so I cannot argue with him or take him to trial. 

    If God is not a mortal, in my view, God is not able to become a mortal, which would violate the non-mortality of God.


    What does John 1:14 text say to you ?

    It says to me that the Word (Logos) - God's idea or plan for creation/humanity - took on flesh and lived among us. It's important to note that the verse does NOT say the flesh the Word took on was the Word! Jesus wasn't the Word; he was the flesh the Word took on. That is, to me the verse says Jesus was the embodiment of God's Logos (Word) the vessel through whom God made the Logos known to humanity. When we see/listen to Jesus, we see/listen to one who embodies God's Word for us. He is a conduit for divine communication with humanity.

    Think about the prophets. Were they God when they spoke for God? No. They were spokespeople for God, God spoke through them. Similarly, God addresses humanity through Jesus, but Jesus is not God.

    I find value in this regard to John 1.18, a verse which some manuscripts amend in a telling, and I contend textually justified, way:

    18 No one has ever seen God; the only [Son], who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

    The word choice of many translations - that the one who is at the Father's side is "the only God" - makes no sense. The only God, by definition of the word "only," can't be at God's side... but the "only Son" - who is not God - can be.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus,

    reading Psa 2:12, I noticed a nice translation in the NASB which shows a clear distinction in the usages of the word "worship" in harmony with the context and to whom worship, hommage, reverence, respect are shown

     Psa 2:11-12 (NASB)

    11 Worship the LORD with 2areverence

    And rejoice with trembling.

    12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way,

    For His wrath may 2soon be kindled.

    In v. 11 as a reference to God (YHWH, the LORD) the translators use the word "worship". In v.12, as a reference to a man (the Son), the translators use the expression "do hommage" to translate the descriptive expression "kiss the Son [kiss the Son's feet]".

    To WORSHIP does not always mean "to worship AS GOD".

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Answer implies Bible does not have a single scripture verse that supports assertion "one man can NOT be True God" (for others to prayerfully consider) while personal belief for assertion "one man can NOT be True God" believes Bible cannot be correctly understood any other way. Which is more important: personal belief conviction OR what One True God inspired ?

    @Bill_Coley wrote: My first thought as far as verses that declare a clear separation between God and humanity are two: Isaiah 55.89 and Job 9.32

    If God is not a mortal, in my view, God is not able to become a mortal, which would violate the non-mortality of God.

    Concur God's ways are far beyond than human imagination (and beyond human limitations), which included a plan for One God to clearly be in two separate places at the same time: ruling in Heaven and the only spiritual being inside one holy human body (did not inherit human spirit with sin nature). "Plural unity" describes One God's heart, soul, and strength being unified while simultaneously having more than one mind.

    One God's plan for dwelling in a holy human body had not happened before the time of Job. Hence Job is correct (as he complains in chapter 9), but his words lack support for assertion "one man can NOT be True God". Same is true of Numbers 23:19 words from God (through prophet Balaam) for King Balak, which provides an assertion opportunity: if can find any scripture showing Jesus lied, then Jesus cannot be God because God does not lie. FYI: scripture can plainly prove Peter is man who lied: Matthew 26:69-75, Mark 14:66-72, Luke 22:56-62, John 18:15-18, 25-27

    Seems conclusion about non-mortality of God restates belief assertion (assumption) "one man can NOT be True God" while ignoring God's ways.

    In contrast, Paul wrote in Colossians 2:8-9 (NLT) Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    What does John 1:14 text say to you ?

    @Bill_Coley It says to me that the Word (Logos) - God's idea or plan for creation/humanity - took on flesh and lived among us. It's important to note that the verse does NOT say the flesh the Word took on was the Word! Jesus wasn't the Word; he was the flesh the Word took on. That is, to me the verse says Jesus was the embodiment of God's Logos (Word) the vessel through whom God made the Logos known to humanity. When we see/listen to Jesus, we see/listen to one who embodies God's Word for us. He is a conduit for divine communication with humanity.

    John 1:14 begins with a simple assertion: The Word (subject) became (verb) flesh (object): ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο (The Word flesh became), which shows emphasis of object destination (flesh) for The Word (with aorist verb tense declaring it happened while not providing time/action insight). Greek grammar of John 1:1 asserts The Word (ὁ λόγος) was fully being God (in the beginning) while God was being more than The Word.

    Hypothetical question: what happens to belief view if the blood of Jesus is proven to have 24 sets of chromosomes (complete complement of 23 sets from human mother and one "Y" set from God) ? FYI: one set from God included special bypass processing of comparison for gene dominance and submission. Normally humans have 23 pairs of chromosome sets (for a total of 46 sets).

    @Bill_Coley Think about the prophets. Were they God when they spoke for God? No. They were spokespeople for God, God spoke through them. Similarly, God addresses humanity through Jesus, but Jesus is not God.

    To me, a prophet is a conduit for God's words (with prophecy fulfillment to be declared by God).

    The parable of the Vineyard and the Vinedressers in Matthew 21:31-46, Mark 12:1-12, & Luke 20:9-19 clearly shows difference between human prophets and the son (Jesus).

    @Bill_Coley wrote I find value in this regard to John 1.18, a verse which some manuscripts amend in a telling, and I contend textually justified, way:

    18 No one has ever seen God; the only [Son], who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

    The word choice of many translations - that the one who is at the Father's side is "the only God" - makes no sense. The only God, by definition of the word "only," can't be at God's side... but the "only Son" - who is not God - can be.

    Exodus 33:18-20 (NLT) Moses responded, “Then show me your glorious presence.” The Lord replied, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose. But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.”

    Plural unity of God understands the throne of One God in Holy heaven has two minds occupying it, who intimately share one heart, one soul, one strength in One God's commUnity of Love.


    @Wolfgang reading Psa 2:12, I noticed a nice translation in the NASB which shows a clear distinction in the usages of the word "worship" in harmony with the context and to whom worship, hommage, reverence, respect are shown

    In v. 11 as a reference to God (YHWH, the LORD) the translators use the word "worship". In v.12, as a reference to a man (the Son), the translators use the expression "do hommage" to translate the descriptive expression "kiss the Son [kiss the Son's feet]".

    New English Translation (NET) Bible has extensive translation notes. Suggest reading note 33 for Psalm 2 (includes homage) => https://netbible.org/bible/Psalms+2

    @Wolfgang To WORSHIP does not always mean "to worship AS GOD".

    In context of Psalm 2, worship (serve) includes God the Father and God the Son genuinely as One God.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,821

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote


    @Wolfgang reading Psa 2:12, I noticed a nice translation in the NASB which shows a clear distinction in the usages of the word "worship" in harmony with the context and to whom worship, hommage, reverence, respect are shown

    In v. 11 as a reference to God (YHWH, the LORD) the translators use the word "worship". In v.12, as a reference to a man (the Son), the translators use the expression "do hommage" to translate the descriptive expression "kiss the Son [kiss the Son's feet]".

    In light of your later statement, did you even read what I wrote hear in pointing out to you the different usages of the word "worship" and how translators clarified the two usages by translating the term differently into English?

    New English Translation (NET) Bible has extensive translation notes. Suggest reading note 33 for Psalm 2 (includes homage) => https://netbible.org/bible/Psalms+2

    Yes ... and what?


    @Wolfgang To WORSHIP does not always mean "to worship AS GOD".

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus In cSmiling Psalm 2, worship (serve) includes God the Father and God the Son genuinely as One God.

    Psalm 2 says absolutely nothing about "God the Son" ... In addition, your idea of "God the Father and God the Son genuinely as One God" is nowhere to be seen in Psa 2, nor in any other part of either OT or NT Scriptures.

    You (false) claim demonstrates your pre-conceived "THREE=ONE God" belief.

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