Trinity ... and the excuse of "human limitations", etc

Just came across something an acquaintance of mine had written some time ago, and I was reminded that in these forums as well I had encountered exactly what he had mentioned => the claim that with my human reasoning and limited human ability I could not explain God or understand the Trinity ...

Have a look at what he wrote:

Time after time when we engage in conversation with other Christians about these issues we are brushed off with appeals to our human limitations. They tell us that the Trinity is a mystery that we just have to accept by faith. We are cautioned that we are not capable of understanding God. Though there is some truth in this type of sentiment, we still consider such appeals to incomprehensibility as cheating.

I mean, let’s just reverse our positions for a moment. You be the Unitarian and I’ll be the Trinitarian. You try to convince me that my beliefs are unbiblical, anachronistic, and illogical. You make some solid arguments and rather than listening and really considering what you are saying I say, “Well, I hear what you are saying, but really, you just need to accept that this is a mystery that you cannot understand; you just have to believe it.” If I pulled that on you, wouldn’t you feel like that was dirty?

Yet, this is what happens over and again. We have to be willing to change our beliefs if they are wrong. May God help us!

So folks who have pulled that on me in the past, how would you fell if I pulled that on you? Also, since supposedly the Trinity can't be understood because of human limitations, how can it be that you or those who have defined that "mystical doctrine" can understand what they put down? are you or were they gods or superhuman ?

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Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,309

    It's all about which bucket you wear over your head. The one that stops your ears from hearing and eyes from seeing. So for the most part, you are banging heads with many who are as blind as you. Only with a different indoctrination. If you can remove the bucket, and read the bible free from all human contamination, the trinity is easy for any child to see. To say as you do, God is one person, is to say he has a split personality, like Norman Bates in the movie "Psycho". Who at times became the "Mother" and at times became the "Son".

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,624

    @Dave_L wrote

    To say as you do, God is one person, is to say he has a split personality, like Norman Bates in the movie "Psycho". Who at times became the "Mother" and at times became the "Son".

    One would have more the impression that is actually what TRINITARIANS really express => their ONE "Godhead" is essentially a "split personality" ..

    How would what you claim be true of what I say when I confess that God is ONE person? Only IF you look through your "Jesus" and "Holy Ghost" are also God-Persons ... Since Scripture does teach that God's only begotten Son was that man who was born of Mary, that Jesus obviously could in no way be a second God-person ...

    I'd suggest that perhaps it is not me who should have a look at whether my ears are sstopped from hearing or eyes from seeing?

  • edited February 14

    @Wolfgang wrote: One would have more the impression that is actually what TRINITARIANS really express => their ONE "Godhead" is essentially a "split personality" ..

    Split personality is modalism since one personality shows at a time (similar to a human male being a father, a husband, and a son). Modalism reflects an aspect of Trinity having Three distinct roles (modes) in One Godhead.

    Three Persons (Voices) in One Lord God Almighty always exist in a commUnity of Love ❤️All Three Voices (God) interact at the same time all the time (due to human body limitations, not know how much The Word could interact with the rest of God while in the womb and growing as a child). On earth, Jesus (God the Word) prayed often to be in commUnity of Love ❤️with God the Will (Father) & Holy Spirit (God).

    @Wolfgang wrote: How would what you claim be true of what I say when I confess that God is ONE person? Only IF you look through your "Jesus" and "Holy Ghost" are also God-Persons ... Since Scripture does teach that God's only begotten Son was that man who was born of Mary, that Jesus obviously could in no way be a second God-person ...

    Obvious conclusion confirms "One God = One Person" filtering, which does not truly understand Triune God (since does not believe that One God could essentially be in two places at the same time: ruling in Holy Heaven & being in Holy human flesh on earth). The "One God = One Person" filter and "One God = Three Persons (Voices) = One Lord Almighty = CommUnity Love ❤️" filter both deny tritheism (three gods = three persons). However, the "One God = One Person" filter interprets Trinity as tritheism (does not believe Three persons could be a Unified God, which is the mystery of the Trinity).

    One God existed before creation, who has Three intelligent Voices with free will choice that choose to intensely Love ❤️each other while being a Unified God (imagine Three Voices singing Love songs together to glorify God). If you truly want to hear the Voices of Jesus (God) & Holy Spirit (God), then ask God.

    Thankful for God desiring an intimate Love ❤️relationship with each human so can hear God, which could be any of His Three Voices (usually Holy Spirit thoughts for me, which allows my mind to interact with His thoughts and remember them). Words can describe Holy Righteous Fruit of the Holy Spirit while failing to express wonders of experiencing nine aspects being one Fruit. Thankful for Philippians 4:4-7 teaching about God's Peace being the answer for Thankful prayers (words lack expression for God's Peace that passeth all understanding). Thankful for Holy Spirit peaceful conviction of my sin, which allows me to confess ("same speak") for forgiveness plus cleansing from unrighteousness 😍

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,937

    @Wolfgang said:

    So folks who have pulled that on me in the past, how would you fell if I pulled that on you? Also, since supposedly the Trinity can't be understood because of human limitations, how can it be that you or those who have defined that "mystical doctrine" can understand what they put down? are you or were they gods or superhuman ?

    As for you and your "acquaintance" when it comes to the Trinity, "human limitations" are not excuses, it's the truth! Above all, the Bible says:

    "Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who seek him".  CM

    SOURCE:

     Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Heb 11:6). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,624

    @C_M_ wrote

    As for you and your "acquaintance" when it comes to the Trinity, "human limitations" are not excuses, it's the truth! Above all, the Bible says:

    "Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who seek him". CM

    Since I have no problem or question regarding the verse you quoted, what was your point? what does it have to do with the topic?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,309

    Any child can see the three persons, each called God, present at Jesus' baptism.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,624

    Your comments are rather confusing and somewhat self-contradicting ... so much so, that it appears rather difficult to impossible to reply and keep the topic on track ....

    You mentioned - among other things - the following

    However, the "One God = One Person" filter interprets Trinity as tritheism (does not believe Three persons could be a Unified God, which is the mystery of the Trinity).

    Indeed, Three who are individually each God can not be one unified God !!! This has nothing to do with any filter. You declare that idea of Three God Persons to be only One unified God to be "the mystery of the Trinity" You know, if that were a mystery, no one would know a thing about it !! On the other hand, since many folks including you seem to know it, it can't be a mystery. Therefore, when something makes no sense and is unreasonable and in contradiction to reason and logic and language, it is nothing but someone's "unintelligent weird fiction fantasy" .... and doesn't become anything else just because you say label it as something else.

  • @Wolfgang wrote: Indeed, Three who are individually each God can not be one unified God !!!

    Genesis 1:26 "Let us make mankind in our image, our likeness, ..." Plural us (God) created mankind in a singular image, which has four Love attributes => Mark 12:29-30 teaches human individuals are to ❤️Love the Lord your God with:

    • all your heart
    • all your soul
    • all your mind
    • all your strength

    Which Love attribute(s) are One in a Triune God ? (allows humans to be One in God, just as Jesus said: "I and the Father are One.")

    Which Love attribute(s) are Three in a Triune God ?

    Humanly aware of three sources for thoughts in my mind: (can happen at the same time)

    • God (who Loves me)
    • Adversary (who hates me)
    • me

    Mystery could also be called blindness => 2 Corinthians 4:4 the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Genesis 1:26 "Let us make mankind in our image, our likeness, ..." Plural us (God) created mankind in a singular image, which has four Love attributes => Mark 12:29-30 teaches human individuals are to ❤️Love the Lord your God with:

    Critical to understanding the plural "us" in Genesis 1.26, I believe, is the number of the pronoun reference to God found in the very next verse, Genesis 1.27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. I discussed the small number of OT plural references to God in THIS POST in another thread. The basic problems with such references are 1) in quantity they are outnumbered many, many, many times over by singular pronoun references to God, and 2) in every case, a plural reference to God is followed almost immediately - within a couple of verses - by a single pronoun reference. I'll pose here the larger question I posed in the post to which I just linked:

    • Why don't we see a plural pronoun in reference to God ANYWHERE else in the Old Testament other than in Genesis 1.26Genesis 11.6Genesis 3.22, and Isaiah 6.8? If the OT supports a Trinitarian theology, why do we find so many times more singular references to God in it than plural references?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Which Love attribute(s) are One in a Triune God ? (allows humans to be One in God, just as Jesus said: "I and the Father are One.")

    Which Love attribute(s) are Three in a Triune God ?

    Your questions assume, but do not demonstrate, a trinitarian Godhead.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Mystery could also be called blindness => 2 Corinthians 4:4 the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    Or the "mystery" could be called disagreement - followers of Jesus read the same passages in the same Bible and come to significantly different conclusions as to their message regarding the formation of the Godhead in general, and the question of whether Jesus is God in particular.

    I for one don't feel "blinded" at all. I believe I have a strong grasp on the issue of the deity of Jesus, and I know I have for decades regularly conducted studies of Bible texts relevant to the issue. I don't claim that you or any other supporter of the Trinity doctrine is "blind." I claim only that you and I disagree on the matter.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,937

    @Bill_Coley said:

    Why don't we see a plural pronoun in reference to God ANYWHERE else in the Old Testament other than in Genesis 1.26Genesis 11.6Genesis 3.22, and Isaiah 6.8? If the OT supports a Trinitarian theology, why do we find so many times more singular references to God in it than plural references?

    Thanks Bill for raising the questions. The answers are simply, God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) was understood as One. e.g. Let's say your name is Bill Allen Coley (illustration only). For emphasis purposes (introduction or to get your attention in a stern manner), I may call your full name. On talking to you or about you, to people that know you, I will use only one of your names or what one knows you by. In some cases, I may refer to you by a characteristic or an attribute, to those who know you, have a relationship or experiences with you. Based on the Bible Writer, under inspiration, he used the "reference" his audience knew of God or by experience.

    When I say Bill, in these forums, everyone knows I am talking about you, Bill Coley. If there were more than one Bill, I may use both names--Bill Coley, distinguish you from another Bill, if another is around. In addition, to sure I am referencing to you I may use one of your names along with something you're known for. e.g. I may say, Bill, the skilled debater or Bill, the anti-Trinitarian in CD. 😉 😁 The same thing happened in the Bible when it comes the references to God. This is why in the OT, one seems find more singular references to God in it than plural references. I hope this helps and you see light in my reasoning. CM

  • edited February 16

    @Bill_Coley wrote:

    Why don't we see a plural pronoun in reference to God ANYWHERE else in the Old Testament other than in Genesis 1.26Genesis 11.6Genesis 3.22, and Isaiah 6.8? If the OT supports a Trinitarian theology, why do we find so many times more singular references to God in it than plural references?

    Morph Search (<LogosMorphHeb ~ R???[^S]??> OR <LogosMorphHeb ~ V????P???>) INTERSECTS <Person God> using Logos 8 finds more to consider: e.g. Jeremiah 30:5 Thus says the Lord, We have heard a cry of panic, of terror, and no peace.

    Searching WIVU Constituency Trees using Logos 8 for clauses having אֱלֹהִים Elohim (plural noun) with singular verb finds 176 verses in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1st & 2nd Samuel, 1st Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Nahum, Psalms, Job, Ecclesiastes, Ezra, Nehemiah, and 1st & 2nd Chronicles. For example, Ecclesiastes 5:7 Much dreaming and many words are meaningless. Therefore fear God.

    Searching WIVU Constituency Trees using Logos 8 for clauses having Elohim (plural noun) with plural verb finds 31 verses: e.g. Psalm 40:5 Many, LORD my God, are the wonders you have done, the things you planned for us.

    Some plural noun uses with plural verbs refer to a pantheon of gods: Deuteronomy 7:25 & 12:3, Judges 2:3 & 18:24, 2 Kings 17:33

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Which Love attribute(s) are One in a Triune God ? (allows humans to be One in God, just as Jesus said: "I and the Father are One.")

    Which Love attribute(s) are Three in a Triune God ?

    To show your understanding of a Triune God, please answer these Love attribute questions (so someone who loves the Triune God would agree with you).

    The "One God = One Person" filter understands tritheism (three gods), but not Trinity (especially Unified God). This filter interprets a mind as a person so more than one mind becomes more than one god, which is tritheism.

    Love is more than logic (hard to love what the mind rejects). Logic lacks romantic love expression. Proverbs 30:18-19 "There are three things that are too amazing for me, four that I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a young woman." Mysterious (and awesome) is the Love of a Triune God for each person ❤️

    Keep Smiling 😀

    Post edited by Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus on
  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341
    edited February 16

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

    Morph Search (<LogosMorphHeb ~ R???[^S]??> OR <LogosMorphHeb ~ V????P???>) INTERSECTS <Person God> using Logos 8 finds more to consider: e.g. Jeremiah 30:5 Thus says the Lord, We have heard a cry of panic, of terror, and no peace.

    I grant that I missed this example of a plural pronoun, so thanks. But a couple of observations about it lessen its impact:

    1. In context, the pronoun "we" appears not to refer to God, but to the collective "we," the community of the sentient, both human and divine, who hear the cries of panic and terror. It's akin to my saying something like, "And we all know how THAT turned out!" In that claim, the "we" doesn't define me as more than one person; it refers the common knowledge of a group of people that includes me.
    2. It's another example of the pattern to which I have referred in other posts on this subject: A plural noun followed almost immediately by all singular pronouns. Consider God's soliloquy in Jeremiah 30.5-24, of which v.5 is obviously a part. By my count, the "we" of v.5 is followed by 25 singular pronoun references to God. What message about the identity and number of God does that combination of pronouns suggest? In my view, it is clearly that God is a single entity, not more than one.


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Searching WIVU Constituency Trees using Logos 8 for clauses having אֱלֹהִים Elohim (plural noun) with singular verb finds 176 verses in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1st & 2nd Samuel, 1st Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Nahum, Psalms, Job, Ecclesiastes, Ezra, Nehemiah, and 1st & 2nd Chronicles. For example, Ecclesiastes 5:7 Much dreaming and many words are meaningless. Therefore fear God.

    As I reported in THIS RESPONSE to you last month on the same issue, "the brief study I conducted of the term "Elohim" convinced me that though the term is grammatically plural, when it refers to the God of Israel, its meaning is singular - that is, ONE God."


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Some plural noun uses with plural verbs refer to a pantheon of gods: Deuteronomy 7:25 & 12:3, Judges 2:3 & 18:24, 2 Kings 17:33

    As you correctly point out, the plural nouns of these verses refer to gods (small "g") other than JHWH. In my view, that makes them interesting but not germane to our current exchange.


    Your citations not withstanding, the observation I made in my previous post remains true: The overwhelming number of OT references to God are singular in number, and the few plural pronouns employed are, I think, always followed immediately by a series of singular pronouns, suggesting strongly that the plural pronouns do NOT refer to a plural or multi-dimensional Godhead, but to the one God declared in Deuteronomy 6.5.



    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    To show your understanding of a Triune God, please answer these Love attribute questions (so someone who loves the Triune God would agree with you).

    Your request assumes, of course - or at minimum, asks that for the moment I assume - the existence of a triune God. I would gladly address your questions, but from the perspective of one who does not believe in the Trinity. However, your post contains no questions at all, let alone, "Love attribute questions." Could you post the questions to which you request my response?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    The "One God = One Person" filter understands tritheism (three gods), but not Trinity (especially Unified God). This filter interprets a mind as a person so more than one mind becomes more than one god, which is tritheism.

    I don't understand your concept of "filters," unless by it you refer to beliefs. Am I correct to understand "filter" as a "belief"?


    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Love is more than logic (hard to love what the mind rejects). Logic lacks romantic love expression. Proverbs 30:18-19 "There are three things that are too amazing for me, four that I do not understand: the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a snake on a rock, the way of a ship on the high seas, and the way of a man with a young woman." Mysterious (and awesome) is the Love of a Triune God for each person ❤️

    I don't understand the relevance to our discussion of these statements. Please say more.

    I would certainly agree that the love of God is "mysterious and awesome."

    In my view, the command to love God with all our "mind" requires that we pursue God with every skill and asset available to us, including logic. For example, would the Jesus who blessed children, who scolded his disciples for hindering the approach of children to him, and who linked entrance into the Kingdom to the innocent response of a child, endorse the genocidal murder of children that God orders in the Old Testament? I say no. To me that is both logical and necessary given what we know about Jesus. In coming to that conclusion, I believe I fulfill the command to love God with my mind.

    I'd very much welcome your response to the question I just raised: Do you believe Jesus endorsed the genocidal murder of children (also women and men) on multiple occasions reported as a command of God in the Old Testament?

    Post edited by Bill_Coley on
  • @Bill_Coley wrote: In context, the pronoun "we" appears not to refer to God, but to the collective "we," the community of the sentient, both human and divine, who hear the cries of panic and terror. It's akin to my saying something like, "And we all know how THAT turned out!" In that claim, the "we" doesn't define me as more than one person; it refers the common knowledge of a group of people that includes me.

    What word(s) indicate community of the sentient in Jeremiah 30:4-7 Now these are the words that יהוהYahweh spoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah. “For thus says יהוהYahweh:  ‘We have heard a sound of trembling, terror, and there is no peace. Ask please and see whether a male can bear a child. Why do I see every strong man with his hands on his loins like a woman giving birth? And why are all their faces changed to paleness? Alas! For that day is great, ⌊there is none like it⌋. And it is a time of distress for Jacob, yet from it he will be delivered.

     W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Je 30:4–7.

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Your request assumes, of course - or at minimum, asks that for the moment I assume - the existence of a triune God. I would gladly address your questions, but from the perspective of one who does not believe in the Trinity. However, your post contains no questions at all, let alone, "Love attribute questions." Could you post the questions to which you request my response?

    Mark 12:29-30 teaches human individuals are to ❤️Love the Lord your God with:

    • all your heart
    • all your soul
    • all your mind
    • all your strength

    Which Love attribute(s) are One in a Triune God ? (allows humans to be One in God, just as Jesus said: "I and the Father are One.")

    Which Love attribute(s) are Three in a Triune God ?

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    What word(s) indicate community of the sentient in Jeremiah 30:4-7

    You don't place a question mark at the end that phrase, but I will address it as if it's a question: The word that indicates the community of the sentient is "we, " as I indicated in my previous post.

    Now these are the words that יהוהYahwehspoke concerning Israel and concerning Judah. “For thus saysיהוהYahweh: ‘We have heard a sound of trembling, terror, and there is no peace. Ask please and see whether a male can bear a child. Why do I see every strong man with his hands on his loins like a woman giving birth? And why are all their faces changed to paleness? Alas! For that day is great, ⌊there is none like it⌋. And it is a time of distress for Jacob, yet from it he will be delivered.

    Your intention in quoting from the passage is not clear to me.


    Mark 12:29-30 teaches human individuals are to ❤️Love the Lord your God with:

    our heart

    all your soul

    all your mind

    all your strength

    Which Love attribute(s) are One in a Triune God ? (allows humans to be One in God, just as Jesus said: "I and the Father are One.") Which Love attribute(s) are Three in a Triune God ?

    1. Because I don't accept your premise of a triune God, I can't see how my response to your questions could be either informative or authoritative.
    2. I don't understand why you differentiate between love attributes that are "one" and those that are "three" with the triune God whom you declare. Why wouldn't all four of those attributes apply in the same manner/number in God, whether God is deemed triune or not?


    Sorry for the lack of substance to my replies here, but I'm not on the same wave length as you when it comes to your questions. I hope you can offer some clarifying information.

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 461

    If some theological ideal or concept can not be understood (and defined) at least 'at some level' how then is it possible for such to be argued as the 'sine qua non' of 'orthodox' Christian religion?


    However, although we certainly do not and can not know all there is to know about God we can fathom the idea/concept of a invisible creator. Even an atheist can cognitively conceive of the concept of God, they simply do not believe in the concept, but one must first understand a concept at some level in order to able to state that one does not accept or believe in the concept.

  • @Bill_Coley wrote: I don't understand why you differentiate between love attributes that are "one" and those that are "three" with the triune God whom you declare. Why wouldn't all four of those attributes apply in the same manner/number in God, whether God is deemed triune or not?

    ❤️Love attributes of a Triune God has One Heart & One Soul & One Strength with Three Minds (Voices).

    Three Minds (Voices, Persons) in a Triune God expresses commUnity of Love ❤️intimately sharing One Heart & One Soul & One Strength.

    The belief (filter) of "One God = One Person (Voice)" interprets Three Minds (Voices) as three people, which becomes three gods (tritheism).

    @Bill_Coley wrote: Because I don't accept your premise of a triune God, I can't see how my response to your questions could be either informative or authoritative.

    Informative to show your belief does not understand trinity, which is something you cannot explain. Your belief rejects God's Love plan for Holy redemption from sin by faith (do not know who Jesus is = eternal God in Holy human flesh). Hence your belief knows about One God while being blind to The Truth of Jesus (both God and Human), which could set you free from your sin to be Holy in God's sight. Matthew 7:21-23 & John 14:6 & 1 John 1:9

    If you want to hear the Three Voices in One God, then ask God 🙏

    Before One Loving God created this world (out of nothing), God planned to be ruling in Holy heaven while also being in Holy human flesh on earth, which needed more than One Mind (Voice) with distinct role for each Mind (Voice). One God is Unified having Three Minds (Voices) truly Loving each other all the time ❤️

    Jesus spoke truly when He said "I and the Father are One" Heart & Soul & Strength in commUnity of Love ❤️

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,937

    @C_M_ said:

    Mitchell,

    I don't know if it is by accident or by designed, but you have pretty much answered your own question. It takes faith to believe and accept God, however He chooses, to reveal Himself. This being said, faith is the "sine qua non" of God and understanding the Trinity. Because God's revelation of himself doesn't answer every nuance of the anti-trinitian's mind, they doubt, divide and deny that He is. They are like fishes floundering on a hot sandy Florida beach. God has reveal enough for any man to believe. On the other hand, there will always be room for doubt. We must trust God where we can't trace Him. CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Love attributes of a Triune God has One Heart & One Soul & One Strength with Three Minds (Voices).

    Three Minds (Voices, Persons) in a Triune God expresses commUnity of Love ❤️intimately sharing One Heart & One Soul & One Strength.

    The belief (filter) of "One God = One Person (Voice)" interprets Three Minds (Voices) as three people, which becomes three gods (tritheism).

    I don't understand your application of these so-called "love attributes." Your assertion is that they are "of a Triune God," but in the command that presents them, they are the attributes of the believer. Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love God with all heart, soul, mind, and strength. (Matthew 22.37) But is the believer's heart, and soul, and mind, and strength, not God's. So on what basis do you contend that these "love attributes" are of God, whether "Triune" or otherwise?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,624

    @C_M_ wrote:

    When I say Bill, in these forums, everyone knows I am talking about you, Bill Coley. If there were more than one Bill, I may use both names--Bill Coley, distinguish you from another Bill, if another is around. In addition, to sure I am referencing to you I may use one of your names along with something you're known for. e.g. I may say, Bill, the skilled debater or Bill, the anti-Trinitarian in CD. 😉😁 The same thing happened in the Bible when it comes the references to God. This is why in the OT, one seems find more singular references to God in it than plural references. I hope this helps and you see light in my reasoning.

    So then, when the OT uses the plural pronoun "us", how many Gods are in view? Is there a God the Father (such as one "Bill the skilled debater") and a God the Son (such as a "Bill the anti-Trinitarian") ? In other words, our "Bill Coley" is talking to Himself? Or are there two Gods (such as a "Bill Coley" and a "Bill Anderson" who are referred to as "us"?

  • edited February 17

    @Bill_Coley wrote: I don't understand your application of these so-called "love attributes." Your assertion is that they are "of a Triune God," but in the command that presents them, they are the attributes of the believer. Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love God with all heart, soul, mind, and strength. (Matthew 22.37) But is the believer's heart, and soul, and mind, and strength, not God's. So on what basis do you contend that these "love attributes" are of God, whether "Triune" or otherwise?

    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, our likeness, ..." so human believer Love attributes reflect God's Love attributes (likeness). Plural pronoun for God in Genesis 1:26 has singular image, likeness.

    Jesus (Eternal God in Holy Human flesh) spoke John 15 that includes "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing." ... "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in His Love." Same Love attributes allow believers to be in God and God in us.

    @Wolfgang wrote: So then, when the OT uses the plural pronoun "us", how many Gods are in view?

    One God established a commUnity of Love so "us", "we", "our" pronouns in OT for God refer to One Unified God having Three Voices always Loving each other ❤️. Singular pronouns in OT for God refer to entire commUnity in One God. Personally tend to Praise God (entire commUnity) while sometimes Praise One of God's Voices.

    When Jesus, The Word (God) prayed to The Father (God), God's independent minds (voices) were communicating to each other while Heart & Soul & Strength aspects of Love are intimately intertwined (so Heart & Soul & Strength to Heart & Soul & Strength is "talking" to One self, which is also reflexive so Heart & Soul & Strength shares Aches & Joys among all Three Voices).

    Keep Smiling 😀

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,937

    @Wolfgang said:

    So then, when the OT uses the plural pronoun "us", how many Gods are in view? Is there a God the Father (such as one "Bill the skilled debater") and a God the Son (such as a "Bill the anti-Trinitarian") ? In other words, our "Bill Coley" is talking to Himself? Or are there two Gods (such as a "Bill Coley" and a "Bill Anderson" who are referred to as "us"?

    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, our likeness, ..." is the answer to your questions. This is what I mean. One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341

    @C_M_ said:

    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, our likeness, ..." is the answer to your questions. This is what I mean. One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). CM

    Your post of the verse from Genesis 1, CM, begs the question I have asked multiple times in these forums, but to which I have yet to receive a substantive response: Genesis 1.26 and the small handful of other OT verses that refer to God via a plural pronoun ALWAYS follow that plural pronoun with at least one, and usually many more than one, singular nouns. The most recent example I've noted in my posts is Jeremiah 30.5-24, a passage whose first verse plural pronoun ("we") is followed by 25 singular pronouns that refer to God. If OT writers believe in a multi-dimensional Godhead, then...

    1. Why are there so few plural references to God?
    2. Why is every one of those plural references to God followed immediately by one or more singular pronouns?
    3. Why do references to God in the singular outnumber plural references by as much as a hundred to one?


    Specific to Genesis 1.26:

    1. Notice that the plural reference to God in v.26 is followed in Genesis 1.27 by three singular pronouns, and that the chapter ends with an additional singular reference in Genesis 1.31.
    2. On what basis do you conclude that the pronoun "us" in Genesis 1.26 refers to "Father, Son, Holy Spirit"?


    Thanks for your time and response, CM.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,309

    If you cannot see the trinity in scripture, find a Sunday school boy or girl to explain it to you. It is the simplest of all doctrines spelled out visually for all to see during Jesus' baptism. The Father spoke from heaven, as the Holy Spirit descended like a dove, as John baptized Jesus, the Son in whom the father was well pleased.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,624

    @Dave_L wrote

    If you cannot see the trinity in scripture, find a Sunday school boy or girl to explain it to you.

    I myself "explained" that doctrine for a number of years ... until I got old enough to start thinking for myself instead of just repeating anything that I had been programmed to say by pastor and catechism teacher ....

    It is the simplest of all doctrines spelled out visually for all to see during Jesus' baptism. The Father spoke from heaven, as the Holy Spirit descended like a dove, as John baptized Jesus, the Son in whom the father was well pleased.

    You know, just because in my garden you will see rose, rhododendron and geranium, that does NOT make those to be a trinity one flower, does it??

    At that event of Jesus' baptism, there are three mentioned: (1) God, Who spoke from heaven, (2) the man Jesus who was God's only begotten Son, and God's holy spirit power with which God anointed the man Jesus. There is absolutely nothing about a Trinity mentioned or indicated in the record

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,937

    @Bill_Coley The most recent example I've noted in my posts is Jeremiah 30.5-24, a passage whose first verse plural pronoun ("we") is followed by 25 singular pronouns that refer to God. If OT writers believe in a multi-dimensional Godhead, then... 

    1. Why are there so few plural references to God? 
    2. Why is every one of those plural references to God followed immediately by one or more singular pronouns?
    3. Why do references to God in the singular outnumber plural references by as much as a hundred to one? 

    Specific to Genesis 1.26:

    1. Notice that the plural reference to God in v.26 is followed in Genesis 1.27 by three singular pronouns, and that the chapter ends with an additional singular reference in Genesis 1.31.
    2. On what basis do you conclude that the pronoun "us" in Genesis 1.26refers to "Father, Son, Holy Spirit"?


    Bill,

    Beyond what I said above, I will let stand. Must one call all the accommodation terms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) every time, just to refer to God. All are equal--One. There terms are for man's benefit. God is so much more. God spoke in terms, again, we can grasp. This doesn't make what you say THE correct, in all, absent of the biblical Trinity. CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341

    @C_M_ said:

    Beyond what I said above, I will let stand. Must one call all the accommodation terms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) every time, just to refer to God. All are equal--One. There terms are for man's benefit. God is so much more. God spoke in terms, again, we can grasp. This doesn't make what you say THE correct, in all, absent of the biblical Trinity. CM

    Not for an instant do I expect "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" all to appear in "every" OT reference to God, CM. But if the OT supports a Trinitarian Godhead as you appear to claim it does, I would expect those three terms to appear at least occasionally. As it is, I know of no OT occurrences of those terms as as a unitary reference to God, which to me means that your assertion of their presence is rooted in your trinitarian theology, not the Old Testament text. But I am open to correction! Please cite the OT texts which in your view employ those three terms to refer the Godhead.

    Your claim that the three terms "are equal" reads to me as another affirmation of your personal theology. I respect and celebrate your faith, but your claim does nothing to demonstrate the presence of those terms in the OT.

    I agree with you that God often speaks "in terms... we can grasp." What you haven't demonstrated, however, is that God spoke in those three terms in the OT.

    My claims remain that the overwhelming majority of OT references to God use singular pronouns, and that the few plural references are immediately followed by multiple singular references. In my view, CM, you have not substantively called into question the accuracy of either of those claims.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,624

    As far as I can read in the OT scriptures, the records which speak about "GOD" are all very plain to refer to "GOD" as One Single Spirit Being/Person and nowhere give the impression that more than One Single Spirit Being/Person is meant when a passage speaks about "GOD".

    The use of a plural pronoun in very few verses in connection with God speaking or someone speaking for God, are still NOT indicative of a "GOD" duo or trio or even larger group of Spirit Beings/Persons. Rather, linguistically speaking, these statements are using what is commonly known even today as "majestic plural", a figure of speech, by which one single person speaks of themselves in the first person plural. Even today, monarchs and rulers use this type of language, e.g. "We declare ..." when in truth there are not multiple persons declaring anything but the monarch or queen is speaking of him-/herself.

    IF indeed "GOD" were a reference to a Trio of Beings/Persons, the regular use of pronouns should also be plural, but not singular (he, him, his) as is the case in all places, even in the passage in Gen 1:26-27 where v. 27 uses the singular.

    Now, recognizing this simply and plain truth that the true GOD is only One Single Spirit Being/Person has nothing whatever to do with human limitations or attempts to limit "GOD" somehow ... rather, the Trinitarians are the ones who go beyond what Scripture reveals about God and in their human limitation come up with a fantasy "God-Trio".

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,341

    @Wolfgang said:

    IF indeed "GOD" were a reference to a Trio of Beings/Persons, the regular use of pronouns should also be plural, but not singular (he, him, his) as is the case in all places, even in the passage in Gen 1:26-27 where v. 27 uses the singular.

    This is a significant point, Wolfgang, one that I hadn't even thought of as I posted about the singular and plural pronoun references to God in the OT. Thanks.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,937

    Brethren,

    Are you saying that there is a problem with the writer of Genesis conveying what was given to him under inspiration? Or, brethren, are you saying there is something happen in the transmission of text and therefore the translations of the text from Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc., over the years? Are you saying one or more of the above groups lack grammatical principles and/or practice literary biblical malfeasance? CM

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