Two Tribulations?

Jewish Great Tribulation: AD 70

““Therefore when you see [2nd person plural = the disciples] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15; 16) (NASB95) etc.

Jesus aimed this warning at his disciples. And they left the area when they saw this taking shape. Jesus continued;

““For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:21) (NASB95)

New Covenant era: Christian tribulation with Antichrists until the end.

““Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:23) (NASB95)

Papacy = vicar = in place of Christ.

Days leading up to the end:

““But immediately after the tribulation of those days [New Covenant era] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) (NASB95)

““Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:34–36) (NASB95)

What think ye?

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Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    What think ye?

    I think there is no such "double / dual" talk in the Scriptures ...

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    What think ye?

    I think there is no such "double / dual" talk in the Scriptures ...

    If you consider first the great Jewish tribulation fulfilled in 70 CE, then the remaining Christian tribulation remains until the end of the world.

    Jesus said "when you see" = you see 2nd person plural = the disciples whom he warned.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    I think there is no such "double / dual" talk in the Scriptures ...

    If you consider first the great Jewish tribulation fulfilled in 70 CE, then the remaining Christian tribulation remains until the end of the world.

    Except there is no such thing found in the relevant Scripture passages about (1) a Jewish tribulation, and (2) a Christian tribulation ... as I wrote before: No such dual double talk in the Bible.

    Jesus said "when you see" = you see 2nd person plural = the disciples whom he warned.

    And it should be obvious that Jesus was talking to specific disciples at hat time, not to disciples living many centuries in the future ... again, no such dual double talk in Scriptur either

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    I think there is no such "double / dual" talk in the Scriptures ...

    If you consider first the great Jewish tribulation fulfilled in 70 CE, then the remaining Christian tribulation remains until the end of the world.

    Except there is no such thing found in the relevant Scripture passages about (1) a Jewish tribulation, and (2) a Christian tribulation ... as I wrote before: No such dual double talk in the Bible.

    Jesus said "when you see" = you see 2nd person plural = the disciples whom he warned.

    And it should be obvious that Jesus was talking to specific disciples at hat time, not to disciples living many centuries in the future ... again, no such dual double talk in Scriptur either

    Jesus telling his present audience to expect it solves most of the riddle. And Christian tribulation with false Christs (Papacy in place of Christ) etc. solves the rest.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    Jesus telling his present audience to expect it solves most of the riddle. And Christian tribulation with false Christs (Papacy in place of Christ) etc. solves the rest.

    There is no rest riddle left after correctly understanding Jesus and to whom he was speaking.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Jesus telling his present audience to expect it solves most of the riddle. And Christian tribulation with false Christs (Papacy in place of Christ) etc. solves the rest.

    There is no rest riddle left after correctly understanding Jesus and to whom he was speaking.

    Check any standard lexicon for the verb tense. = those he spoke to at the time.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    There is no rest riddle left after correctly understanding Jesus and to whom he was speaking.

    Check any standard lexicon for the verb tense. = those he spoke to at the time.

    Exactly ... and there is therefore no rest of the riddle.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    There is no rest riddle left after correctly understanding Jesus and to whom he was speaking.

    Check any standard lexicon for the verb tense. = those he spoke to at the time.

    Exactly ... and there is therefore no rest of the riddle.

    The tense rules out any futuristic fulfillment beyond the disciple's life times.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    The tense rules out any futuristic fulfillment beyond the disciple's life times.

    That is what I am saying the whole time .... therefore there is NO future tribulation of Christians found in the passage past that tribulation which the early church, specifically those disciples to whom Jesus spoke, endured ... and the great tribulation during the time of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem not only was directed at Jews at the time but also at the Christian believers from among the circumcision/Jews who lived then ...

    However, there is no tribulation in view aside from that great tribulation in the 1st century AD in connection with the last days of the OT age which culminated in the events just prior and during 70 AD.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    The tense rules out any futuristic fulfillment beyond the disciple's life times.

    That is what I am saying the whole time .... therefore there is NO future tribulation of Christians found in the passage past that tribulation which the early church, specifically those disciples to whom Jesus spoke, endured ... and the great tribulation during the time of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem not only was directed at Jews at the time but also at the Christian believers from among the circumcision/Jews who lived then ...

    However, there is no tribulation in view aside from that great tribulation in the 1st century AD in connection with the last days of the OT age which culminated in the events just prior and during 70 AD.

    “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;” (Revelation 7:9) (KJV 1900)

    “And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:13–14) (KJV 1900)

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,710

    Dave,

    A LITTLE BACKGROUND:

    The expression "great tribulation", this phrase is first used in Daniel 12:1 (KJV).

    The great tribulation is not portrayed in Rev. 7, but in Rev. 13:11-17 and chapters 15-18. In Rev 7, John is interested in the question raised earlier by the wicked "The great day of his wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6:17), and not the tribulation itself. Of course, the answer to the question:

    • The great multitude standing before the throne of God:

      1. Is seen clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands.
      2. Have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (7:14).

    ----- and -----

    • The 144,000. They are the same group standing on the threshold of the great tribulation "the ones coming out of the great..." (Rev. 7:14).

                                  **********************************
      

    When one reads "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"... these are they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:13-14), consider the experiences and how long the situation for the aforementioned of the "great tribulation". That is, out of great "pressure" or "hard circumstances". The word "tribulation" (Gk. thlipseos) is more than "persecution and martyrdom". It includes the concepts as "trouble", "stress", "difficult circumstances" and "suffering" in general. These texts pointed to something already going on in John's day, something that had continued throughout Christian history.

    Hoeksema says:

    • In the first part they are upon the earth; in the second part, they are already in glory in the new economy of the kingdom which is completed. In the first they are in tribulation; in the second they are already passed through that tribulation”.

    They are not in need of the protection of the divine sealing any longer. In Revelation 7:10–12 we have a replay of the hymn of Revelation 5:9–14. Its purpose may be to show that in Revelation 7 we have the fulfillment of the promise given in 3:21.

    The scene of Revelation 7 refers to the experience of God’s people throughout the history of the great controversy between good and evil. The sealed 144,000 and the great multitude of God’s people clothed in the white robes, having passed through the great tribulation, relate in a special way to the martyrs underneath the altar in the scene of the opening of the fifth seal. The 144,000 and the great multitude portray God’s oppressed and persecuted people who are now ultimately made complete.

    I hope this helps. CM

    SOURCES

    -- Hoeksema, Herman. Behold, He Cometh. Grand Rapids, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association, 1969. pg. 267.

    -- Swete, H. B. (Ed.). (1906). The apocalypse of St. John (2d. ed., p. 99). New York: The Macmillan Company.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @C_M_ said:
    Dave,

    A LITTLE BACKGROUND:

    The expression "great tribulation", this phrase is first used in Daniel 12:1 (KJV).

    The great tribulation is not portrayed in Rev. 7, but in Rev. 13:11-17 and chapters 15-18. In Rev 7, John is interested in the question raised earlier by the wicked "The great day of his wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Rev. 6:17), and not the tribulation itself. Of course, the answer to the question:

    • The great multitude standing before the throne of God:

      1. Is seen clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands.
      2. Have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (7:14).

    ----- and -----

    • The 144,000. They are the same group standing on the threshold of the great tribulation "the ones coming out of the great..." (Rev. 7:14).

                                  **********************************
      

    When one reads "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"... these are they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:13-14), consider the experiences and how long the situation for the aforementioned of the "great tribulation". That is, out of great "pressure" or "hard circumstances". The word "tribulation" (Gk. thlipseos) is more than "persecution and martyrdom". It includes the concepts as "trouble", "stress", "difficult circumstances" and "suffering" in general. These texts pointed to something already going on in John's day, something that had continued throughout Christian history.

    Hoeksema says:

    • In the first part they are upon the earth; in the second part, they are already in glory in the new economy of the kingdom which is completed. In the first they are in tribulation; in the second they are already passed through that tribulation”.

    They are not in need of the protection of the divine sealing any longer. In Revelation 7:10–12 we have a replay of the hymn of Revelation 5:9–14. Its purpose may be to show that in Revelation 7 we have the fulfillment of the promise given in 3:21.

    The scene of Revelation 7 refers to the experience of God’s people throughout the history of the great controversy between good and evil. The sealed 144,000 and the great multitude of God’s people clothed in the white robes, having passed through the great tribulation, relate in a special way to the martyrs underneath the altar in the scene of the opening of the fifth seal. The 144,000 and the great multitude portray God’s oppressed and persecuted people who are now ultimately made complete.

    I hope this helps. CM

    SOURCES

    -- Hoeksema, Herman. Behold, He Cometh. Grand Rapids, MI: Reformed Free Publishing Association, 1969. pg. 267.

    -- Swete, H. B. (Ed.). (1906). The apocalypse of St. John (2d. ed., p. 99). New York: The Macmillan Company.

    Scripture mentions two great tribulations. We need to keep them separate. The Jewish great tribulation Jesus said would occur in the times of his present audience. (check your Greek verb tenses in Matthew 24). And the great Christian tribulation mentioned in Revelation. This tribulation spans the entire New Covenant era.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    Scripture mentions two great tribulations. We need to keep them separate. The Jewish great tribulation Jesus said would occur in the times of his present audience. (check your Greek verb tenses in Matthew 24). And the great Christian tribulation mentioned in Revelation. This tribulation spans the entire New Covenant era.

    Since the book of Revelation is about the same general topic (end of the OT age with destruction of Jerusalem and temple) as Jesus' discourse recorded in Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21), there is only one great tribulation.
    Making two great tribulations out of this follows essentially the exact same error as dispensationalists propose with their "inserted Christian dispensation"

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Scripture mentions two great tribulations. We need to keep them separate. The Jewish great tribulation Jesus said would occur in the times of his present audience. (check your Greek verb tenses in Matthew 24). And the great Christian tribulation mentioned in Revelation. This tribulation spans the entire New Covenant era.

    Since the book of Revelation is about the same general topic (end of the OT age with destruction of Jerusalem and temple) as Jesus' discourse recorded in Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21), there is only one great tribulation.
    Making two great tribulations out of this follows essentially the exact same error as dispensationalists propose with their "inserted Christian dispensation"

    This assumes too much. A late date on Revelation would cover only one great tribulation, that of the Church.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Since the book of Revelation is about the same general topic (end of the OT age with destruction of Jerusalem and temple) as Jesus' discourse recorded in Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21), there is only one great tribulation.
    Making two great tribulations out of this follows essentially the exact same error as dispensationalists propose with their "inserted Christian dispensation"

    This assumes too much. A late date on Revelation would cover only one great tribulation, that of the Church.

    I would say that your idea assumes too much .... Also, I think a late date of Revelation is not in harmony with the content of the book in context with other Scripture passages which speak about the end of that age.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Since the book of Revelation is about the same general topic (end of the OT age with destruction of Jerusalem and temple) as Jesus' discourse recorded in Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21), there is only one great tribulation.
    Making two great tribulations out of this follows essentially the exact same error as dispensationalists propose with their "inserted Christian dispensation"

    This assumes too much. A late date on Revelation would cover only one great tribulation, that of the Church.

    I would say that your idea assumes too much .... Also, I think a late date of Revelation is not in harmony with the content of the book in context with other Scripture passages which speak about the end of that age.

    Since Revelation shows only one of two obvious great tribulations, it helps place it at a late date of writing. After the Jewish Great Tribulation.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    Since Revelation shows only one of two obvious great tribulations, it helps place it at a late date of writing. After the Jewish Great Tribulation.

    your assumption of TWO great tribulations is the root of the problem ... The great tribulation (which is always spoken of a singular event in Scripture!) is said to happen just prior to "the end of the Age". According to your idea then, it would mean that there are TWO ends of the age / end of TWO ages ... but there is nothing to that effect in Scripture either.

    As I mentioned before, you are in essence doing the same as dispensationalist theology which inserts "a Christian age" in between the OT Age and a re-vived Jewish Age etc ...

    Yes, indeed, Scripture speaks of only ONE great tribulation, which happened prior to the end of that OT Age when - as Jesus clearly taught - Jerusalem was besieged and the temple of God at Jerusalem was destroyed. What you also don't seem to realize is the fact that during those years when this happened, not only did Jews (who did not believe in but reject Messiah Jesus) suffer in that great tribulation, but many Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus) mainly of a Jewish background suffer. It was those Christians of Jewish background who adhered to Jesus' warnings and who fled from the city into the hills when the Romans for a very short time lifted their siege and thus saved their lives.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    Since Revelation shows only one of two obvious great tribulations, it helps place it at a late date of writing. After the Jewish Great Tribulation.

    your assumption of TWO great tribulations is the root of the problem ... The great tribulation (which is always spoken of a singular event in Scripture!) is said to happen just prior to "the end of the Age". According to your idea then, it would mean that there are TWO ends of the age / end of TWO ages ... but there is nothing to that effect in Scripture either.

    As I mentioned before, you are in essence doing the same as dispensationalist theology which inserts "a Christian age" in between the OT Age and a re-vived Jewish Age etc ...

    Yes, indeed, Scripture speaks of only ONE great tribulation, which happened prior to the end of that OT Age when - as Jesus clearly taught - Jerusalem was besieged and the temple of God at Jerusalem was destroyed. What you also don't seem to realize is the fact that during those years when this happened, not only did Jews (who did not believe in but reject Messiah Jesus) suffer in that great tribulation, but many Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus) mainly of a Jewish background suffer. It was those Christians of Jewish background who adhered to Jesus' warnings and who fled from the city into the hills when the Romans for a very short time lifted their siege and thus saved their lives.

    It is not an assumption. It is fact. And the two tribulations force a late date on Revelation.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    As I mentioned before, you are in essence doing the same as dispensationalist theology which inserts "a Christian age" in between the OT Age and a re-vived Jewish Age etc ...

    Yes, indeed, Scripture speaks of only ONE great tribulation, which happened prior to the end of that OT Age when - as Jesus clearly taught - Jerusalem was besieged and the temple of God at Jerusalem was destroyed. What you also don't seem to realize is the fact that during those years when this happened, not only did Jews (who did not believe in but reject Messiah Jesus) suffer in that great tribulation, but many Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus) mainly of a Jewish background suffer. It was those Christians of Jewish background who adhered to Jesus' warnings and who fled from the city into the hills when the Romans for a very short time lifted their siege and thus saved their lives.

    It is not an assumption. It is fact.

    Claiming something does not prove anything to be a fact. Show me from Scripture that my above observations from Scripture about there only being one great tribulation at the end of one OT age is incorrect ... and show us by providing passages from Scripture which speak of two tribulations.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    As I mentioned before, you are in essence doing the same as dispensationalist theology which inserts "a Christian age" in between the OT Age and a re-vived Jewish Age etc ...

    Yes, indeed, Scripture speaks of only ONE great tribulation, which happened prior to the end of that OT Age when - as Jesus clearly taught - Jerusalem was besieged and the temple of God at Jerusalem was destroyed. What you also don't seem to realize is the fact that during those years when this happened, not only did Jews (who did not believe in but reject Messiah Jesus) suffer in that great tribulation, but many Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus) mainly of a Jewish background suffer. It was those Christians of Jewish background who adhered to Jesus' warnings and who fled from the city into the hills when the Romans for a very short time lifted their siege and thus saved their lives.

    It is not an assumption. It is fact.

    Claiming something does not prove anything to be a fact. Show me from Scripture that my above observations from Scripture about there only being one great tribulation at the end of one OT age is incorrect ... and show us by providing passages from Scripture which speak of two tribulations.

    I explained this in the OP. The audience determines the timing of the event. And the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,710
    edited December 2018

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    As I mentioned before, you are in essence doing the same as dispensationalist theology which inserts "a Christian age" in between the OT Age and a re-vived Jewish Age etc ...

    Yes, indeed, Scripture speaks of only ONE great tribulation, which happened prior to the end of that OT Age when - as Jesus clearly taught - Jerusalem was besieged and the temple of God at Jerusalem was destroyed. What you also don't seem to realize is the fact that during those years when this happened, not only did Jews (who did not believe in but reject Messiah Jesus) suffer in that great tribulation, but many Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus) mainly of a Jewish background suffer. It was those Christians of Jewish background who adhered to Jesus' warnings and who fled from the city into the hills when the Romans for a very short time lifted their siege and thus saved their lives.

    It is not an assumption. It is fact.

    Claiming something does not prove anything to be a fact. Show me from Scripture that my above observations from Scripture about there only being one great tribulation at the end of one OT age is incorrect ... and show us by providing passages from Scripture which speak of two tribulations.

    This sounds like an invitation for Dave and others, to mine Matt 24 in general, and Matt. 24:15, 16, 21, 23, 29, 34–36 (NASB95), in particular. Until then, what's your understanding? We need to do more contextual work with passage than just looking or providing positional answers. "The Bible is its own interpreter". For example, as stated elsewhere:

    @ CM said: For a better understanding of the conception of the Parousia in Matt 24, it is necessary to explore briefly some Old Testament theophany passages. The most important passage is that of the theophany on Mount Sinai, setting the pattern for many other theophanies (Exod 19:16-25 is the first occurrence of theophany unless one goes back to creation).

    Fairness and reason say, you can't study Matt 24 without studying Matt 25. When are we going to get off this spiritual treadmill (ever moving and not going anywhere)? The Word deserves to be "rightly divided" for its truth, increasing of faith, and attentiveness of heaven's message to the "endtime" generation. Nose to the grinding wheel of truth (Bible)? CM

    Post edited by C_M_ on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    It is not an assumption. It is fact.

    Claiming something does not prove anything to be a fact. Show me from Scripture that my above observations from Scripture about there only being one great tribulation at the end of one OT age is incorrect ... and show us by providing passages from Scripture which speak of two tribulations.

    I explained this in the OP. The audience determines the timing of the event.

    And both Jesus in his discourse in Mt 24 and the book of Revelation address disciples/followers of Jesus (believers in Messiah Jesus) and therefore are NOT speaking of two great tribulations.

    And the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD.

    Indeed ... the one great tribulation spoken of in Scripture happened just prior to the events of 70 AD.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @C_M_ said:
    This sounds like an invitation for Dave and others, to mine Matt 24 in general, and Matt. 24:15, 16, 21, 23, 29, 34–36 (NASB95), in particular. Until then, what's your understanding? We need to do more contextual work with passage than just looking or providing positional answers. "The Bible is its own interpreter".

    As one should be able to easily recognize,, I am endeavoring to do just that by pointing to the wording and grammar of a text passage, its context (both immediate and remote), etc

    For example, as stated elsewhere:

    @ CM said: For a better understanding of the conception of the Parousia in Matt 24, it is necessary to explore briefly some Old Testament theophany passages. The most important passage is that of the theophany on Mount Sinai, setting the pattern for many other theophanies (Exod 19:16-25 is the first occurrence of theophany unless one goes back to creation).

    One must be careful not to "knit together" items which textually or contextually do not relate to each other. I am wondering with the above, is the parousia (coming, presence) of the son of Man spoken of by Jesus in Mt 24 something like a theophany? or is it not something different? Which characteristics of both would indicate such?

    Fairness and reason say, you can't study Matt 24 without studying Matt 25. When are we going to get off this spiritual treadmill (ever moving and not going anywhere)? The Word deserves to be "rightly divided" for its truth, increasing of faith, and attentiveness of heaven's message to the "endtime" generation. Nose to the grinding wheel of truth (Bible)? CM

    Well, since Scripture does not speak as such of an "endtime" but rather of "the end of the age" anad clarifies that the end of that particular age (world) was in the 1st century AD, the "endtime generation" spoken of in Scripture was that generation (the contemporaries) of Jesus to whom Jesus prophesied and gave his warnings.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    It is not an assumption. It is fact.

    Claiming something does not prove anything to be a fact. Show me from Scripture that my above observations from Scripture about there only being one great tribulation at the end of one OT age is incorrect ... and show us by providing passages from Scripture which speak of two tribulations.

    I explained this in the OP. The audience determines the timing of the event.

    And both Jesus in his discourse in Mt 24 and the book of Revelation address disciples/followers of Jesus (believers in Messiah Jesus) and therefore are NOT speaking of two great tribulations.

    And the Great Tribulation happened in 70 AD.

    Indeed ... the one great tribulation spoken of in Scripture happened just prior to the events of 70 AD.

    Greek Verb tense defines the audience. It was those Jesus spoke to at the time. They would leave town, which they did, when they saw it taking shape.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And both Jesus in his discourse in Mt 24 and the book of Revelation address disciples/followers of Jesus (believers in Messiah Jesus) and therefore are NOT speaking of two great tribulations.

    Greek Verb tense defines the audience.

    Not quite, Dave. The context defines the meaning of words and sentences, with verb tenses being only one additional aspect ...

    It was those Jesus spoke to at the time.

    Indeed, and those were not apostate Jews, but Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus).

    They would leave town, which they did, when they saw it taking shape.

    Indeed ... those Christians did obey Jesus' warning words.

    The point here is, that there is only ONE Great Tribulation spoken of in Scripture which happened at the end of that OT Age (world). And since the book of Revelation addresses the same major topic (the time just prior to the Roman advance on Jerusalem and coming siege and destruction etc), it is clear that the book was not revealed at the late date ... In particular, the writings to the seven churches in Asia minor served the purpose of encouraging the Christians there to remain faithful during the times of great distress as the Roman army was advancing through the area during the latter part of Nero's reign and persecution of Christians.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    And both Jesus in his discourse in Mt 24 and the book of Revelation address disciples/followers of Jesus (believers in Messiah Jesus) and therefore are NOT speaking of two great tribulations.

    Greek Verb tense defines the audience.

    Not quite, Dave. The context defines the meaning of words and sentences, with verb tenses being only one additional aspect ...

    It was those Jesus spoke to at the time.

    Indeed, and those were not apostate Jews, but Christians (believers in Messiah Jesus).

    They would leave town, which they did, when they saw it taking shape.

    Indeed ... those Christians did obey Jesus' warning words.

    The point here is, that there is only ONE Great Tribulation spoken of in Scripture which happened at the end of that OT Age (world). And since the book of Revelation addresses the same major topic (the time just prior to the Roman advance on Jerusalem and coming siege and destruction etc), it is clear that the book was not revealed at the late date ... In particular, the writings to the seven churches in Asia minor served the purpose of encouraging the Christians there to remain faithful during the times of great distress as the Roman army was advancing through the area during the latter part of Nero's reign and persecution of Christians.

    Why did they leave town if it was meant for future generations with no town to leave?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    Why did they leave town if it was meant for future generations with no town to leave?

    ??? Are you mistaking me for someone else? I have not said anything about future generations .... rather have stated repeatedly that the prophecies of Jesus pertained to the time of the generation in the 1st century, seeing he even mentioned directly that some of those who heard him would still be alive at the time of his coming at the end of that age and also mentioned that the judgment executed at his coming would befall that evil generation of his contemporaries who had rejected him as their Messiah

    Thus, what are you talking about? Were not YOU the one claiming that there were two tribulations, the one of them for Christians in a later generation and age?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Why did they leave town if it was meant for future generations with no town to leave?

    ??? Are you mistaking me for someone else? I have not said anything about future generations .... rather have stated repeatedly that the prophecies of Jesus pertained to the time of the generation in the 1st century, seeing he even mentioned directly that some of those who heard him would still be alive at the time of his coming at the end of that age and also mentioned that the judgment executed at his coming would befall that evil generation of his contemporaries who had rejected him as their Messiah

    Thus, what are you talking about? Were not YOU the one claiming that there were two tribulations, the one of them for Christians in a later generation and age?

    The first great tribulation was Jewish and happened in 70 CE. Christians suffer great tribulation the entire New Covenant era.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Thus, what are you talking about? Were not YOU the one claiming that there were two tribulations, the one of them for Christians in a later generation and age?

    The first great tribulation was Jewish and happened in 70 CE.

    On what Scripture passage is this claim based? Mt 24 ?

    Christians suffer great tribulation the entire New Covenant era.

    Where in Scripture is tribulation which happened in the past and has happened throughout time to Christians spoken of as "the great tribulation" ?

    Since you mentioned earlier some points that supposedly prove your ideas, I would htink that you can point out Scripture textual basis (hopefully with the relevant details pointed out) for your ideas?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Thus, what are you talking about? Were not YOU the one claiming that there were two tribulations, the one of them for Christians in a later generation and age?

    The first great tribulation was Jewish and happened in 70 CE.

    On what Scripture passage is this claim based? Mt 24 ?

    Christians suffer great tribulation the entire New Covenant era.

    Where in Scripture is tribulation which happened in the past and has happened throughout time to Christians spoken of as "the great tribulation" ?

    Since you mentioned earlier some points that supposedly prove your ideas, I would htink that you can point out Scripture textual basis (hopefully with the relevant details pointed out) for your ideas?

    “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” (Matthew 24:15–16) (KJV 1900)

    “But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” (1 Corinthians 14:24–25) (KJV 1900)

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