The Return of Jesus: Does Any Man Know?

C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,440

This topic was started in another thread: Dispensationalism: Establishing an Understanding. The topic needs a full airing, therefore, its own space. “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” ( Matt 24:36). This and other passages speak of Christ's return. No man knows? If so, how? If not, why not? What is considered the "end of the age" (Matt 24:3)? Beyond your opinions, what does the Bible teaches on this topic, the Return of Jesus? CM

Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    Dispies say Jesus returns after a 7 year tribulation, and then again after a 1000 year millennium.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    Matt 24:36 teaches that Jesus clearly stated that no man but only God alone, the Father only, knew the specific time ("day and hour") of the coming of the lord.

    BUT we must note that Jesus throughout his public ministry himself had mentioned plainly the general time frame when he would come => it would be toward the end of the time frame of the generation of his contemporaries when only some of those who heard him speak would be alive; it would be in connection with a siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Writers of the NT scriptures confirmed that it would be within a time frame of "soon", "shortly", etc.

    Thus we see that Scripture is clear in teaching that the general time frame for the coming of the Lord was known to Jesus and once he taught his followers it was known to them as well ... as a matter of fact, the coming of the Lord had been prophesied as part of the events of judgment at the end of the old covenant age, the age of the Law, so that general time aspect was already known before the time of Christ.

    While the general time was known and was taught openly by Jesus to his followers, Jesus and no one else knew "day or hour", that is, the specific time within that general time when exactly the coming of the Lord would occur.

    A rather simple and clear comparison to understand this matter about general time vs specific time is seen with a woman who is pregnant ... does she know the day and hour, the exact time, when labor will set in and the baby will be born? No! Does any other human being know? No. BUT does the woman know the general time frame when she will give birth to the child? Yes, most definitely she knows it is normally going to be at the end of the 9 months of pregnancy! Can others know this? Yes ... if that information has been told to them.

    Another important point to note in this matter is this: While Jesus' words (that no man knew the yet future day and hour of his coming), once it has come to pass, any man can know even day and hour ... because what yet future at the time Jesus spoke, would at and after his coming already be present or even past and could therefore be known.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Wolfgang said:
    Matt 24:36 teaches that Jesus clearly stated that no man but only God alone, the Father only, knew the specific time ("day and hour") of the coming of the lord.

    BUT we must note that Jesus throughout his public ministry himself had mentioned plainly the general time frame when he would come => it would be toward the end of the time frame of the generation of his contemporaries when only some of those who heard him speak would be alive; it would be in connection with a siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Writers of the NT scriptures confirmed that it would be within a time frame of "soon", "shortly", etc.

    Thus we see that Scripture is clear in teaching that the general time frame for the coming of the Lord was known to Jesus and once he taught his followers it was known to them as well ... as a matter of fact, the coming of the Lord had been prophesied as part of the events of judgment at the end of the old covenant age, the age of the Law, so that general time aspect was already known before the time of Christ.

    While the general time was known and was taught openly by Jesus to his followers, Jesus and no one else knew "day or hour", that is, the specific time within that general time when exactly the coming of the Lord would occur.

    A rather simple and clear comparison to understand this matter about general time vs specific time is seen with a woman who is pregnant ... does she know the day and hour, the exact time, when labor will set in and the baby will be born? No! Does any other human being know? No. BUT does the woman know the general time frame when she will give birth to the child? Yes, most definitely she knows it is normally going to be at the end of the 9 months of pregnancy! Can others know this? Yes ... if that information has been told to them.

    Another important point to note in this matter is this: While Jesus' words (that no man knew the yet future day and hour of his coming), once it has come to pass, any man can know even day and hour ... because what yet future at the time Jesus spoke, would at and after his coming already be present or even past and could therefore be known.

    And when did that happen Wolfgang?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    @reformed said:
    And when did that happen Wolfgang?

    It happened just as and when Jesus prophesied it would happen ...
    This is my understanding of the matter, seeing that I not dare call Jesus to have been a false prophet or ignorant false teacher.
    I rather admit that I do not know many details about the event but I do believe that Jesus was telling the truth when he prophesied that he would come while some of his audience were still alive and signs for his coming would be that Jerusalem would be encompassed by armies and the temple would be destroyed.
    Now, I know there are many and there have been many throughout the last almost 2000 years who insist that their ideas and what they claim to know about how all this happens are true and because of this these things have still not come to pass ... and they seem to not even realize or plain deny boldly that Jesus and his apostles did not tell the truth and the the early church believers were mistaken in believing that the coming of the Lord was imminent and would happen in the time frame of their generation as Jesus had prophesied.
    I leave it up to each one to believe what they want to believe ... however, living with false hopes is not what Scripture promotes

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:
    And when did that happen Wolfgang?

    It happened just as and when Jesus prophesied it would happen ...
    This is my understanding of the matter, seeing that I not dare call Jesus to have been a false prophet or ignorant false teacher.
    I rather admit that I do not know many details about the event but I do believe that Jesus was telling the truth when he prophesied that he would come while some of his audience were still alive and signs for his coming would be that Jerusalem would be encompassed by armies and the temple would be destroyed.
    Now, I know there are many and there have been many throughout the last almost 2000 years who insist that their ideas and what they claim to know about how all this happens are true and because of this these things have still not come to pass ... and they seem to not even realize or plain deny boldly that Jesus and his apostles did not tell the truth and the the early church believers were mistaken in believing that the coming of the Lord was imminent and would happen in the time frame of their generation as Jesus had prophesied.
    I leave it up to each one to believe what they want to believe ... however, living with false hopes is not what Scripture promotes

    So this, a major event, happened, yet there is no evidence and you can't point to it?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187
    edited November 4

    @reformed said:

    I leave it up to each one to believe what they want to believe ... however, living with false hopes is not what Scripture promotes

    So this, a major event, happened, yet there is no evidence and you can't point to it?

    Scripture is rather plain and clear:

    Lk 21:20-21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mt 24:1-2
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    There you have Scripture evidence of Jesus' own words concerning rather visible events which would mark and accompany the coming of the Lord. I would think that no man should have difficulty whatever to recognize that these words of Jesus were fulfilled in the events of the campaign of the Roman armies and the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

    But then, apparently many folks who teach that Jesus' words did not come to pass as prophesied in those events make Jesus out to be a false prophet, and since they do not have the boldness to actually say so and be regarded as unbelieving fools, they propagate their fantasy instead and claim that Jesus' words are really yet future after almost 2000 years and no one really knows how many thousands of years more it could be but also it could be "soon" or "even today" ...

    You decide, who the fools are !

    Post edited by Wolfgang on
  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    I leave it up to each one to believe what they want to believe ... however, living with false hopes is not what Scripture promotes

    So this, a major event, happened, yet there is no evidence and you can't point to it?

    Scripture is rather plain and clear:

    Lk 21:20-21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mt 24:1-2
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    There you have Scripture evidence of Jesus' own words concerning rather visible events which would mark and accompany the coming of the Lord. I would think that no man should have difficulty whatever to recognize that these words of Jesus were fulfilled in the events of the campaign of the Roman armies and the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

    But then, apparently many folks who teach that Jesus' words did not come to pass as prophesied in those events make Jesus out to be a false prophet, and since they do not have the boldness to actually say so and be regarded as unbelieving fools, they propagate their fantasy instead and claim that Jesus' words are really yet future after almost 2000 years and no one really knows how many thousands of years more it could be but also it could be "soon" or "even today" ...

    You decide, who the fools are !

    Of course 70 AD can't be the end. Scripture plainly teaches that the Temple would go forever, the nation of Israel would be saved. Therefore, the destruction of 70 could not be these events.

    Not to mention. There was no return of Christ during that time. Therefore, your interpretation must be rejected as incorrect.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Scripture is rather plain and clear:

    Lk 21:20-21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mt 24:1-2
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    ...

    Of course 70 AD can't be the end. Scripture plainly teaches that the Temple would go forever, the nation of Israel would be saved. Therefore, the destruction of 70 could not be these events.

    Where in Scripture do you read that the temple at Jerusalem would go on forever (and therefore was not destroyed as Jesus had prophesied)?
    Where in Scripture do you read that THE NATION of Israel would be saved?

    Not to mention. There was no return of Christ during that time.

    How do you know? Are you telling us that Jesus was a false prophet in what he declared in Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21?

    Therefore, your interpretation must be rejected as incorrect.

    Really ... let's see if your supposed reasons for rejecting what I quoted to you from Scripture and my plain understanding of it even hold up. Please answer in DETAIL my above questions in regards to your claims !!

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Scripture is rather plain and clear:

    Lk 21:20-21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mt 24:1-2
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    ...

    Of course 70 AD can't be the end. Scripture plainly teaches that the Temple would go forever, the nation of Israel would be saved. Therefore, the destruction of 70 could not be these events.

    Where in Scripture do you read that the temple at Jerusalem would go on forever (and therefore was not destroyed as Jesus had prophesied)?

    Ezekiel 37 says the nation of Israel will dwell in the land forever. And that God's sanctuary would be there forever more. That is just ONE example. Where did Jesus say that the Temple will be destroyed forever? He didn't. That Temple that was there then, yes that would be destroyed. But we aren't talking about the same temple.

    Where in Scripture do you read that THE NATION of Israel would be saved?

    Romans 11

    Not to mention. There was no return of Christ during that time.

    How do you know? Are you telling us that Jesus was a false prophet in what he declared in Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21?

    Nope, saying you misinterpreted. If there was a return of Christ, we would know about it.

    Therefore, your interpretation must be rejected as incorrect.

    Really ... let's see if your supposed reasons for rejecting what I quoted to you from Scripture and my plain understanding of it even hold up. Please answer in DETAIL my above questions in regards to your claims !!

    Your argument is weak and shows a lack of knowledge of the Scripture.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    Where in Scripture do you read that THE NATION of Israel would be saved?

    Romans 11

    >

    Romans 11 speaks of the broken off unbelievers being grafted back into Israel by faith. So it's not a national restoration. Jesus and the church is Israel and our kingdom is not of this world.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Scripture is rather plain and clear:

    Lk 21:20-21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mt 24:1-2
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    ...

    Of course 70 AD can't be the end. Scripture plainly teaches that the Temple would go forever, the nation of Israel would be saved. Therefore, the destruction of 70 could not be these events.

    Where in Scripture do you read that the temple at Jerusalem would go on forever (and therefore was not destroyed as Jesus had prophesied)?

    Ezekiel 37 says the nation of Israel will dwell in the land forever. And that God's sanctuary would be there forever more. That is just ONE example. Where did Jesus say that the Temple will be destroyed forever? He didn't. That Temple that was there then, yes that would be destroyed. But we aren't talking about the same temple.

    About what time period is Eze 37 speaking??
    It seems that you are actually not noticing the continued unfolding of God's plan and instead rather want to return to a physical temple, even though the spiritual reality for which the physical temple of stone was only a foreshadow has already become a reality? Or do you not know about the matter of earthly physical foreshadow => heavenly spiritual reality (cp Heb ) ???

    Where in Scripture do you read that THE NATION of Israel would be saved?

    Romans 11

    Hmn ... in my Bible (reading NASB95 as English version) there is NOTHING in Rom 11 about the nation of Israel being saved. Could it be that the matter mentioned above which also deals with observing context and overall scope of Scripture is lacking in your interpretation?

    Not to mention. There was no return of Christ during that time.

    How do you know? Are you telling us that Jesus was a false prophet in what he declared in Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21?

    Nope, saying you misinterpreted. If there was a return of Christ, we would know about it.

    Well, guess what? I do know about it ... and so can anyone reading the Scriptures and believing what Jesus rather clearly and plainly taught concerning the timing and events connected with the coming of the Lord.
    That you don't know about - and perhaps millions of others also do not know about - doesn't establish that it did not happen!! It's possible to know about it ... in the same manner as it is possible to know other matters of God's doings in human history => by accepting what Scripture plainly teaches and throwing out one's false theologies, no matter from which theological direction they may have been propagated.

    Therefore, your interpretation must be rejected as incorrect.

    Really ... let's see if your supposed reasons for rejecting what I quoted to you from Scripture and my plain understanding of it even hold up. Please answer in DETAIL my above questions in regards to your claims !!

    Your argument is weak and shows a lack of knowledge of the Scripture.

    My argument were Jesus' very own words ... which you somehow declare to have been incorrect statements made by Jesus.
    I mean, Jesus speaks about his coming and provides clear words about related events and about the general time frame. And you rather boldly declare that Jesus' coming did not happen as Jesus had foretold ... ?? Are you really intending on making Jesus out to be a liar?? Would it not be better to acknowledge that something in your ideas is contradicting Jesus' words, and that therefore perhaps you are the one with mistaken ideas?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 1,885

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    Where in Scripture do you read that THE NATION of Israel would be saved?

    Romans 11

    >

    Romans 11 speaks of the broken off unbelievers being grafted back into Israel by faith. So it's not a national restoration. Jesus and the church is Israel and our kingdom is not of this world.

    To say it isn't talking about ethnic, national Israel is laughable given the context of the entire passage. Israel in the entire passage is talking about ethnic Israel then that one instance all of a sudden it is different? No sir.

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Scripture is rather plain and clear:

    Lk 21:20-21
    20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mt 24:1-2
    1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    ...

    Of course 70 AD can't be the end. Scripture plainly teaches that the Temple would go forever, the nation of Israel would be saved. Therefore, the destruction of 70 could not be these events.

    Where in Scripture do you read that the temple at Jerusalem would go on forever (and therefore was not destroyed as Jesus had prophesied)?

    Ezekiel 37 says the nation of Israel will dwell in the land forever. And that God's sanctuary would be there forever more. That is just ONE example. Where did Jesus say that the Temple will be destroyed forever? He didn't. That Temple that was there then, yes that would be destroyed. But we aren't talking about the same temple.

    About what time period is Eze 37 speaking??
    It seems that you are actually not noticing the continued unfolding of God's plan and instead rather want to return to a physical temple, even though the spiritual reality for which the physical temple of stone was only a foreshadow has already become a reality? Or do you not know about the matter of earthly physical foreshadow => heavenly spiritual reality (cp Heb ) ???

    Where in Scripture do you read that THE NATION of Israel would be saved?

    Romans 11

    Hmn ... in my Bible (reading NASB95 as English version) there is NOTHING in Rom 11 about the nation of Israel being saved. Could it be that the matter mentioned above which also deals with observing context and overall scope of Scripture is lacking in your interpretation?

    Not to mention. There was no return of Christ during that time.

    How do you know? Are you telling us that Jesus was a false prophet in what he declared in Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21?

    Nope, saying you misinterpreted. If there was a return of Christ, we would know about it.

    Well, guess what? I do know about it ... and so can anyone reading the Scriptures and believing what Jesus rather clearly and plainly taught concerning the timing and events connected with the coming of the Lord.
    That you don't know about - and perhaps millions of others also do not know about - doesn't establish that it did not happen!! It's possible to know about it ... in the same manner as it is possible to know other matters of God's doings in human history => by accepting what Scripture plainly teaches and throwing out one's false theologies, no matter from which theological direction they may have been propagated.

    Therefore, your interpretation must be rejected as incorrect.

    Really ... let's see if your supposed reasons for rejecting what I quoted to you from Scripture and my plain understanding of it even hold up. Please answer in DETAIL my above questions in regards to your claims !!

    Your argument is weak and shows a lack of knowledge of the Scripture.

    My argument were Jesus' very own words ... which you somehow declare to have been incorrect statements made by Jesus.
    I mean, Jesus speaks about his coming and provides clear words about related events and about the general time frame. And you rather boldly declare that Jesus' coming did not happen as Jesus had foretold ... ?? Are you really intending on making Jesus out to be a liar?? Would it not be better to acknowledge that something in your ideas is contradicting Jesus' words, and that therefore perhaps you are the one with mistaken ideas?

    Your argument is a misinterpretaion of Jesus' words. These events have not yet happened no matter how you try and twist it. I'm not making Jesus out to be a liar at all.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    @reformed said:

    My argument were Jesus' very own words ... which you somehow declare to have been incorrect statements made by Jesus.
    Jesus speaks about his coming and provides clear words about related events and about the general time frame. And you rather boldly declare that Jesus' coming did not happen as Jesus had foretold ... ?? Are you really intending on making Jesus out to be a liar?? Would it not be better to acknowledge that something in your ideas is contradicting Jesus' words, and that therefore perhaps you are the one with mistaken ideas?

    Your argument is a misinterpretaion of Jesus' words.

    Not at all ...

    Now, what is a misinterpretation in understanding Jesus to be speaking about his coming and him declaring that it would be connected with armies encompassing Jerusalem, with the temple at Jerusalem being destroyed, and that his coming would happen while some of those who heard him speak would still be alive, and that his coming thus would be toward the end of the then generation of his contemporaries?

    How do you understand Jesus' plain and rather simple words? Let's see who it is that reads into Jesus' words what he never said...

    These events have not yet happened no matter how you try and twist it. I'm not making Jesus out to be a liar at all.

    No matter how often or how boldly you deny to make Jesus a liar ... that is what you are doing by saying that the events have not yet happened.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,187

    @reformed ....
    Were the early church believers wrong in believing that the coming of the Lord was imminent and would happen still in the lifetime of some of them? Were they wrongly taught ... cp. Paul's statements in various of his epistles that some of the recipients of his epistles would remain alive unto the coming of the Lord??

    The writer of the letter of Hebrews reminds the recipients of the letter in Heb 10:37 "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry." You and others declare and believe that "he that shall come will come but has tarried for almost 2000 years and will tarry a yet unknown period of time longer"
    What happened? Since the two positions are diametrically opposed and contradict each other, they cannot both be correct, so then who is correct?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,130

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    >

    To say it isn't talking about ethnic, national Israel is laughable given the context of the entire passage. Israel in the entire passage is talking about ethnic Israel then that one instance all of a sudden it is different? No sir.

    “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” (Romans 11:23) (KJV 1900)

    To what are they grafted in? Themselves? Unbelieving broken off Israel?

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