Purgatory: Is it Biblical? If not, what is its Origin?
C Mc
Posts: 4,404
I've heard of this concept before. I think it needs a full airing, given that it was raised in a recent post. To avoid stepping on the flow of the Universalism discussion, I ask it here:
- What is Purgatory?
- Where did it come from?
- Who's in charge of it?
- Where is it?
- Does Purgatory exist today?
- What qualifies one for purgatory?
- How and when is one release from Purgatory?
- Does the Bible teach it?
These and other questions can, and should, be asked of this subject. What is your understanding? CM
Comments
This heresy is of Catholic origin. It came about to justify those who are not so righteous, they go into some halfway house called purgatory where they are purified and made ready for paradise.
On December 19th, 1513 at the Fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimes) declaring,
“We do condemn and reprobate all who assert that the intelligent soul is mortal”.
This was directed against the growing “heresy” of those who denied the natural immortality of the soul, and the avowed conditional immortality of man. The Bull also decreed that those who adhere to such erroneous assertions should be shunned and punished as heretics.
At death, there is no surviving entity called the soul. The soul is dead; it is not immortal. In other words, the soul is simply the person, not a part of the person. It does not and cannot survive death. The person in this state is totally unaware of anything; the Bible calls it a sleep. The soul is not in hell, heaven, or purgatory because it doesn’t exist. At the resurrection, the person is raised again from the dead and becomes a living soul. This concept was held at the time of Luther and exposured by English reformer William Tyndale who argued against Thomas Moore in favor of soul sleep.
There are generally two views concerning the state of the dead among Christians. The first view asserts that when a person dies, his soul survives death and continues to exist in someplace. For those who are saved, they go straight into paradise. For those who are not so righteous, they go into some halfway house called purgatory (Catholic view) where they are purified and made ready for paradise. For those who are rebellious sinners they go straight to hell to suffer in the eternal flames, but never able to die. For most Protestants, there is no intermediate place; one goes to hell or heaven after death. More later. CM
SOURCES:
No purgatory found in the Bible. I don't know about its origins ...
Wolfgang,
See above. CM
Purgatory
The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory was not invented but it dates to ancient Judaism. Please see the following article,
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory
As an observant Jew, Our Lord would have believed in Purgatory. Now, can we see evidence of this in His teachings? The answer is, yes. He teaches it both implicitly and explicitly.
Implicitly
In Matt. 12:31-32 we read the following,
31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
Now, Our Lord suggests that some sins can be forgiven since He states, "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that some sins can be forgiven in the next life. Let's eliminate a couple of possibilities. He cannot be referring to Heaven since those in Heaven are already forgiven and He cannot be referring to Hell since those in Hell are beyond forgiveness. The question now becomes, how is a person forgiven in the next life and where does this forgiveness take place? The only answer is Purgatory.
Explicitly
In Luke 12: 40-48 we read the following,
40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."
What can we gather form this passage?
1. This passage is referring to the time of death as is evidenced from v. 40
2. In verses 43-44 if the servant has been faithful to the master then he gets a good reward(Heaven).
3. If the servant was not faithful to the master then he will get Hell(verses 45-46.
4. Our Lord also offers two other possibilities. In verses 47 and 48 one servant got a severe beating while the other did not get a severe beating. These beatings are finite in nature. If this is not in reference to either Heaven or Hell then where are these beatings carried out in the afterlife? The only answer is Purgatory.
@JMJ and @byGeorge,
It's time to correct your current understanding of "Purgatory." For starters, please read a recent article on the topic: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/what-is-purgatory-is-it-in-the-bible.html
As stated above:
The purgatory heresy is of Catholic origin. It came about to justify those who are not so righteous, they go into some halfway house called purgatory where they are purified and made ready for paradise. On December 19th, 1513 at the Fifth Lateran Council, Pope Leo X issued a Bull (Apostolici regimes).
Nothing happens in the grave, regardless how one lived before death. Nothing but decay takes place. No praying for the dead or they are watching us. It's a hard truth, but reality. Man is not mortal. Only God is immortal.
"Purgatory" is not "purging from sin". Purgatory must not and cannot be called "sanctification" as purported by @byGeorge. "Sanctification" is by faith in Christ (Rom. 6:22; 1 Thes. 4:3-4; 5:23; I Pet. 1:2).
"Sanctification" is:
The word "sanctify" comes from two Latin words: "to make holy." Therefore, sanctify has the added connotation of moral uprightness, spiritual thinking, and issuing in a life of goodness and godliness. A selfish life is not part of the process of sanctification. It is living a spiritual life in direct opposition to living according to the flesh (John 3:6; Rom 8:5-14; 1 Cor 2:12-14; Gal 5:16-6:1).
Biblical spirituality means to be:
The crux of sanctification:
This results in a blessed identification of our life with Christ and our will with His will. It is while we live not when we are dead. CM
Further Reading:
PS. More later computer giving trouble. CM
Purgatory is a God dishonoring pagan doctrine from Greek Mythology. The pagan doctrine was adopted by the Catholic trinitarian church and re-named Hades. But the teaching is the same. Pagan worshippers claimed that if you did not worship the triad of gods, then one of the gods would toture you in the afterlife for all eternity. Many false religions adopted this teaching and refer to this place as Hell.
It's unbiblical and nothing short of satan worship who taught the first LIE, At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die." (Genesis 3:4)
Faith in the blood of Jesus, not time in a so-called purgatory, purifies a person from sin. The Bible says that “the blood of [God’s] Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin” and that “Jesus Christ . . . freed us from our sins by his blood.” (1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5, New American Bible) Jesus gave “his life as a ransom for many” to pay for their sins.—Matthew 20:28, NAB.
Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.
Oops! Correction!
@C Mc typed by mistake the following:
Nothing happens in the grave, regardless how one lived before death. Nothing but decay takes place. No praying for the dead or they are watching us. It's a hard truth, but reality. Man is not mortal. Only God is immortal.
The correct statement should read:
Nothing happens in the grave, regardless of how one lived before death. Nothing but decay takes place. No praying for the dead, or they are watching us. It's a hard truth, but reality. Man IS mortal. Only God is immortal.
Notice:
PS. If one read the whole post, you would have probably caught it. Context reveals.
Something DOES happen in the grave, if you ever studied biology or real life in your backyard. The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out….
It’s what happens beyond the grave that most interests Christians.
There is much we don’t know precisely about the state of the person after the body dies. There are many absurd ideas. Christians know (JW’s of course deny) there is a resurrection. What that is exactly spiritually and physically we don’t know, but neither is it so complicated. A real body and person will rise up in full life as the Bible describes multiple places.
We can tell who is attempting to deceive and who has truth by what they deny and how they deny basic simple Bible truth.
@Truth sais:
Something DOES happen in the grave, if you ever studied biology or real life in your backyard. The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out….
I agree with this. Please re-read my statement above. Nothing happens in the grave when it comes to the deceased having knowledge, pain, spiritual improvement, joy, suffering, love, hate, worries, a voice, any dealings or influence in the lives of the living. The dead know not anything! This is a hard truth! Saying otherwise sounds good at funerals, but it's NOT biblical the truth. There continuation to improve themselves (the dead) to make one ready for heaven (purgatory). This has nothing to do with JWs.
What I said is biblical. This is why we live for the Lord while we have life. We can't pray for the dead or to the dead. See the link below: https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/4925/#Comment_4925
This may be disappointing to you, but the dead are in the grave waiting for Jesus to return, as He has promised (John 14:1-4). See also, 1 Thess 4:13-18, the Bible shares what it would be like when Jesus comes. "... the dead in Christ shall rise first".
1 Thess 4:13-18
13-- But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 -- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 -- For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 -- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 -- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 -- Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
See my thread on "LET THE DEAD REST IN PEACE": https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/958/let-the-dead-rest-in-peace
Please, read the entire thread-- Bible truth and reason. CM
Purgatory....nah. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.
To pin down many details about what must be or cannot be after the body is buried might be like nailing Jello to a wall. We can amuse ourselves with speculation.
The dead know not anything! This is a hard truth!
Not sure what is hard about such a truth. Seems rather self-evident to me.
Saying otherwise sounds good at funerals, but it's NOT biblical the truth.
I am not sure what else we hear at funerals, but we do have "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." And, "This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise." Perhaps other passages as well. That be a time thing, or something else. I am skeptical of anyone who claims to have dogmatic answers not written clearly in the Bible.
Comforting Christians left behind when a person "goes to be with Jesus" or "is now united with grandma" probably isn't a bad thing so long as we recognize that the ticking of a clock may be more relevant in our sunup-sundown world than it is in the scope of eternity. If we want God and "souls passed on" to conform to our earth clocks, we may be left with absurd conclusions or a lot of head scratching.
Both of you trinitarian nut jobs deny that Jesus Christ is the Resurrection. Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;" (John 11:25)
A person rejecting Jesus because his name starts with the letter "J" is not exercising faith in the name Jesus. Would you like to see your dead loved coming back?
Learn why Jesus died for the ones exercising fatih in him. https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODBibleTeachings/pub-jwbcov_201505_11_VIDEO
Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.
@BroRando said to ________________ & _____________________,
Both of you trinitarian nut jobs deny that Jesus Christ is the Resurrection.
My brother,
If you are addressing me or whomever, calm down, there is no need to go out of your way to name-call. You usually repeat the same basic materials, if not the identical thing, around these forums. I would like to know:
@BroRando, if you are the person you say you are and not the person I perceive you to be, let's reason together given that you may be a "Traveling overseer." Agree?
@BroRando, all you have to do is ask if you want to know my view or faith in the resurrection. You don't have to make accusations. You BELIEVED in the resurrection of JWs MEMBERS. You appear to be starched, "dye-in-wool" JW. I cite your Translation:
We are all prisoners of death. No matter what we do, there is no escape. But Jehovah has the power to release us from death. And he has promised that “, is to be brought to nothing.”—( NWT).
Imagine the relief you will feel when you don’t have to worry about dying! But Jehovah will not only remove death. He will also bring those who have already died back to life. Think what that will mean for you. He promises that those “powerless in death” will live again. ( NWT) This is what the Bible calls the resurrection.
You don't believe in Jesus' bodily resurrection. JWs teach that it was a spiritual resurrection and deny a physical-material resurrection. Your Organization explains away Jesus' missing body, simply that it "dissolved into gases." Am I correct about this? Yes? or No?
Read the biblical account in Matt 28:2-10 ...
2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it.
3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
4The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified.
6“He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying.
7“Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.”
8And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples.
9And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
10Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (Mt 28:2–10). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
The same crucified body of Jesus resurrected. This is supported by the fact that Jesus possessed His crucifixion wounds (stigmata) that He put forward as evidence of his resurrection. He even invited witnesses to touch them. Yes, Christ will have his scars in heaven, but we will not. This is due to the fact that Christ’s scars are a trophy to Him and a reminder to us of His love for humanity and that these wounds made salvation possible for all of us. The stigmata is a memorial of His great love and sacrifice for us. On the contrary, we will not have our scars in the afterlife since they are due to a fallen world and sin. We will be restored to perfection.
In addition, as mentioned above, if Christ’s body is not the same that died on the cross then there is no victory over death (see 1 Corinthians 15:54-55), since the body that died is still in the grave. Further, if the body is not the same body that died, where is the deceased body of Jesus? The tomb was empty. The empty tomb is consistent with the glorified body of Jesus as being the same body that died. What is more, the initial lack of recognition of Jesus what only temporary, which can be explained by either darkness (at the time Mary thought He was the Gardener), fear (disciples were hiding for fear of the Jewish religious leaders), Psychological trauma (disciples didn’t expect to see Jesus after he was killed, they were distraught), and false assumptions (they assumed Jesus was dead). [See Source below].
Like Wolfgang, why do you not accept the biblical account of Jesus' bodily resurrection? CM
PS. Let's try harder to behave better. CM
SOURCE:
https://calvarychapel.com/posts/evidence-for-the-resurrection-the-nature-of-christs-resurrected-physical-body
Trinitarians are antichrists, they reject the Body of Christ. That's because trinitarians reject that Jesus Christ died once and for all time.
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” (John 6:51)
For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)
Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.
@BroRando,
This is why I questioned a human is behind what's posted in your name. You pretend to be responding to me but go off into your canned "talking points." When I thought you were about to be reasonable, you lapsed into your machine functionality. Maybe you weren't talking to me? As I said before, it's a waste of time to try to communicate with you or whatever @BroRando is. When you get around to my post above, let me know. Until then, I would consider @BroRando posts computer ....... .CM
To my Bible Believing Posters,
Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead. It’s a radical departure from historic Christian teaching. The WBTS says that Jesus’s resurrection was purely spiritual and only appeared as physical. This is similar to Wolfgang’s position. However, from the WBTS literature, they proclaim:
“Jehovah God did not leave his Son dead in the grave, but raised him to life on the third day. He was not given human life again, because that would have meant that he was taking back the ransom price. But he was ‘made alive in the spirit’ (1 Pet. 3:18, NWT). During a period of forty days after his resurrection[,] he appeared visibly to his disciples a number of times, in materialized bodies, to prove that he really had been raised from the dead” (Truth, p. 52).
Christians affirm the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself prophesied His physical resurrection.
“Jesus answered and said to them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ The Jews, therefore, said, ‘It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?’” (John 2:19-20, NASB).
Jesus indicated the physical aspect of His resurrection when He appeared to His disciples.
“And He said to them, ‘Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have’” (Luke 24:38-39, NASB).
The physical nature of Jesus’ appearances is further substantiated Christ bodily resurrection:
There is no end to this organization robbing people of faith and distorting Bible truths. CM
Actually trintarians reject the blood and body of Christ. Trintarians and antichrists reject that Jesus sacrificed his flesh and therefore, deny the ransom sacrifice for Salvation.
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.' (1 Peter 3:18)
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I will give is my FLESH in behalf of the life of the world." (John 6:51) So, if for a fact, Jesus gave his flesh in behalf of the life of the world, then proclaiming that he took back the flesh he sacrificed would be wholly inaccurate. Satan and his demons got Billions of people to reject the flesh that Jesus sacrifced by claiming he lied and took his flesh back.
"So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way." (2 Corinthians 5:16)
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45)
Since Jesus became a life-giving spirit, he manifested in various fleshly bodies and many times without the wounds. Consider the account of Mary Magdalene, a faithful follower of Jesus Christ who went to the tomb for the purpose of dressing his wounds.
Notice the account, "After saying this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. Jesus said to her: “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” She, thinking it was the gardener, said to him: “Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” Jesus said to her: “Mary!” On turning around, she said to him in Hebrew:“Rab·boʹni!” (which means “Teacher!”) - John 20:14-16
"Moreover, some women from among us also astonished us, for they went early to the tomb and when they did not find his body, they came saying that they had also seen a supernatural sight of angels, who said he is alive." (Luke 24:22-23)
1) Jesus served and shared a meal with the two disciples in Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35).
Then some of those who were with us went off to the tomb, and they found it just as the women had said, but they did not see him.” So he (Jesus) said to them: “O senseless ones and slow of heart to believe all the things the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” And starting with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures. Finally they got close to the village to which they were traveling, and he made as if to travel on farther. But they urged him to remain, saying: “Stay with us, because it is almost evening and the day is nearly over.” With that he went in to stay with them. (Luke 24:24-30) Again, they did not see him because Jesus manifested in a different body with no wounds.
They only recognized him from the things he said and did. "And as he was dining with them, he took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and began handing it to them. At that their eyes were fully opened and they recognized him; but he disappeared from them." (Luke 24:31-32)
"And they got up in that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and they found the Eleven and those assembled together with them, who said: “For a fact the Lord was raised up, and he appeared to Simon!” Then they related the events on the road and how he became known to them by the breaking of the bread." (Luke 24:33-35)
Another account: "Then they remembered his words, and they returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the Eleven and to all the rest. They were Mary Magʹda·lene, Jo·anʹna, and Mary the mother of James. Also, the rest of the women with them were telling these things to the apostles. However, these sayings seemed like nonsense to them, and they would not believe the women." (Luke 24:8-11) Do you see the pattern? Jesus was manifesting in a different fleshly body without wounds.
"But Thomas, one of the Twelve, who was called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” (John 20:24) Evidently, they all gave the same witness that Jesus appeared to them but in a different body without wounds. Notice Thomas did not ask to see Jesus' body, "But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” (John 20:25)
Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: “May you have peace.” Next he said to Thomas: “Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop doubting but believe.” (John 20:26-27)
Notice the following verses exist for the reason he was manifesting in different fleshly bodies. To be sure, Jesus also performed many other signs before the disciples, which are not written down in this scroll. But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name." (John 20:30-31)
Yet, another account: Jesus appears again in a different body without wounds again! "However, just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” They answered: “No!” (John 21:4-5)
He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” So they cast it, but they were not able to haul it in because of the large number of fish. Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Now Simon Peter, on hearing that it was the Lord, put on his outer garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea." (John 21:6-7) Simon Peter plunging into the sea is 'an act of faith' my friends!
Jesus said to them: “Come, have your breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to ask him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord. Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and the same with the fish. This was now the third time that Jesus appeared to the disciples after being raised up from the dead." (John 21:12-14)
Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.