Why did God create Satan?

My understanding is that the angels existed, and Satan and his demons fell before the creation of heaven and earth.
Given the facts that there's no redemption for fallen angels, and God knew from the beginning that a third of his angels would fall, why did he create them in the first place? Or let them roam the earth instead of banishing them to hell right away?

Human sin is bad enough as it is, but through Satan's influence it becomes even worse.

My provisional understanding is that God uses Satan as a tool for salvation. If Satan had not entered Judas Iscariot (Luke 22:3), then Judas would not have betrayed Jesus, there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no sacrifice for our sins.

But could God not have brought about Jesus' crucifixion in a different manner, without requiring Satan's " involuntary assistance"?

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Comments

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,268

    Of course God could have brought the crucifixion out differently. But the same question can be asked, why would God create the people who would sin and never repent?

    Ultimate answer, for his glory.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    My perspective is that Free Will best explains this.

    God must have created Satan for God's glory. For love and glorification by created creatures to be authentic, free will seems necessary. With authentic free will comes risk of disobedience/sin. In perfect love is both justice and grace. Justice requires a penalty for sin. Grace is offered by God through the sacrifice of the physical life of His Son, Jesus Christ. Somehow all that works out for God's glory.

    Satan is an example of one who chose not to obey, sought personal glory and will be punished. Some angels apparently have chosen well. Apparently, no humans have chosen well.

    Did God foreknow all this? We speculate, but it seems almost certain that He must have. Yet, for love and glory to be authentic, this was a necessary outcome.

    However all this really works out, I like what @reformed says: "Ultimate answer, for his glory."

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Free will doesn't solve the problem of evil. If God knew Satan and people would choose sin and then created what He saw. He caused it to happen by creating it. And all sinful acts were locked into his perfect knowledge and therefore unchangeable.

  • @Jan said:
    Given the facts that there's no redemption for fallen angels, and God knew from the beginning that a third of his angels would fall, why did he create them in the first place? Or let them roam the earth instead of banishing them to hell right away?

    First thanks for posing an astute and thought provocating question

    Based on the assumption that
    (1) God knows everything (Psalm 147:5, Psalm 139:1-4, Isaiah 40:28, Isaiah 46:9-10, 1 Kings 8:39)
    (2) and the Assumption that God and his ways/acts are perfect/good (Psalm 18:30, Matthew 5:48 , Mark 10:18)

    I believe that the Angels (who were to fall or choose to do wrong) and Ha-Satan (the advisory) were created because ultimately (and for reasons far beyond my understanding) it was/is good for them to exist as a tool/pawn in God's perfect/good plan.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,720

    Did God create a living being Satan?
    Also, who or what is Satan?

    I would recommend to carefully observe that the word "satan" actually means "adversary" and perhaps may not be the proper name or title of one particular being, such as a fallen angel, etc. even though that seems the most popular idea among Christians for centuries.
    Judas Iscariot in his mind and heart decided to betray Jesus for money to fulfill his greed as a thief and therewith made himself Jesus' adversary (satan) ... cp. various other statements made about Judas in the gospels. Judas was responsible and guilty of the betrayal, it was not some "fallen angel Satan" who somehow entered into Judas and made him do what he did ... Judas was the culprit, it was not Satan with Judas being just "a neutral tool"

  • JanJan Posts: 249

    @Wolfgang said:
    I would recommend to carefully observe that the word "satan" actually means "adversary" and perhaps may not be the proper name or title of one particular being, such as a fallen angel, etc. even though that seems the most popular idea among Christians for centuries.

    I've never looked into demonology in detail. There's Satan, the Devil, Lucifer and Beelzebul. To me, they all refer to the same being, but the last two are personal names. But I might be mistaken. Is it really important? Not that I wanted to address Satan either by his title or personal name.
    I really should do some serious study of Dr. Heiser's books. They should contain many answers.

    Judas Iscariot in his mind and heart decided to betray Jesus for money to fulfill his greed as a thief and therewith made himself Jesus' adversary (satan) ... cp. various other statements made about Judas in the gospels. Judas was responsible and guilty of the betrayal, it was not some "fallen angel Satan" who somehow entered into Judas and made him do what he did ... Judas was the culprit, it was not Satan with Judas being just "a neutral tool"

    I absolutely agree. Satan has tempted him, but that can't be an excuse for his own sinful act. Judas Iscariot gave in to temptation, acted accordingly, and was personally punished for the deed.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,720

    @Jan said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Judas Iscariot in his mind and heart decided to betray Jesus for money to fulfill his greed as a thief and therewith made himself Jesus' adversary (satan) ... cp. various other statements made about Judas in the gospels. Judas was responsible and guilty of the betrayal, it was not some "fallen angel Satan" who somehow entered into Judas and made him do what he did ... Judas was the culprit, it was not Satan with Judas being just "a neutral tool"

    I absolutely agree. Satan has tempted him, but that can't be an excuse for his own sinful act. Judas Iscariot gave in to temptation, acted accordingly, and was personally punished for the deed.

    Cp. Jam 1:14, the actual temptation is happening inside the person not on the outside ("But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.")

    The expression "Then entered Satan into Judas ..." involves obviously a figure of speech, and emphasizes the moment in which Judas decided to become Jesus' adversary, enmity being in his heart, decision of betrayal made, etc ... the temptation had been in his greed which was so low that a few pieces of silver that had been offered were sufficient for him to become Satan (adversary, enemy) to Jesus.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    Sorry, late to the conversation.

    Brethren,

    A natural response to the OP could be: What? Have you taken a leave of absence from your spiritual mind? Some facts must be known. God made Lucifer, an angel, perfect and upright and not Satan.

    • Angels excel in strength; move with a speed greater than that of light; and possess powers not given to man. (Psalm 103:20, Daniel 9:21; Isaiah 37:36; 2 Kings 19:35) They pronounce and execute judgment upon the great of the earth; protect and encamp about the saints of God, and have the power to bind even Satan. (Daniel 4:13, 17; Psalm 34:7; Revelation 20:2).

    • Angels are unitary beings without family life as we know it, with all its endearing ties. Angels have no fathers or mothers, brothers or sisters, sons or daughters. They do not marry; hence, are strangers to some of the deepest experiences of life. Angels have never known the joys of childhood, nor have they ever brought a new life into the world; they have never felt the exaltation of motherhood or fatherhood. Nor, by way of contrast, have they ever passed through the deep waters, anxiously watching by the bedside of one of their own little ones, and seen life slowly ebb away. The deep and exalted experiences of conjugal love, of father and mother love, as well as of their sorrows, are not vouchsafed the angels.

    They have never faced imprisonment or torture, nor have they known the surpassing joy of being lifted from the mire of sin into the kingdom of God. Conversion is a closed book to them as far as personal experience is concerned, and they have never heard the sweet news of sins forgiven. As far as we can judge, the most profound and sacred of life's experiences as we know them here are denied them. Angels are ministering spirits, servants, while we are children and heirs (Hebrews 1:14; Galatians 4:1,2).

    God did not create Satan, but He did create Lucifer, who became Satan, and because of this creation, certain necessities rest upon God.

    He is in no way responsible for sin, but there are some things which He is obligated to do because of sin's existence. It is this the author has in mind when he uses the word "behoove" Hebrews 2:17.

    In Gen 3:1, the serpent was no ordinary snake, but is identified in Revelation 12:9; 20:2 as the “devil” and “Satan”—the “original serpent.” Of him Atkinson writes:

    • “The devil was a creature of God, whose creation fell in the period referred to in Gen. 1:1. He was a moral being of exalted nature and the first in whom moral evil manifested itself. We read of his creation and life before his fall, his fall itself and his final annihilation in Ezek. 28:11-19. His name Satan **means that he is **the adversary and accuser of the people of God, and his Greek name of ‘devil’ emphasizes his part in separating God and man. . . .
    • “It seems impossible to assemble all that the Bible says about him [Satan] without coming to the conclusion that he is a super-human personal being of high order, created perfect like all God’s creatures, but the author of evil through the conception of an evil thought and the formation of an evil choice in his will. Indeed it is impossible to conceive of the entrance of moral evil into God’s creation apart from the existence of such a personality .”

    More on Satan... CM

    -- Basil F. C. Atkinson, The Pocket Commentary of the Bible, Part I (Genesis 1-9), pp. 40.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,720

    @C_M_ said:

    God did not create Satan, but He did create Lucifer, who became Satan, and because of this creation, certain necessities rest upon God.

    Any Scripture support for such an idea as "Lucifer who became Satan" ??

    In Gen 3:1, the serpent was no ordinary snake, but is identified in Revelation 12:9; 20:2 as the “devil” and “Satan”—the “original serpent.”

    The problem was not the serpent ... the problem was ADAM who decided to disobey God's clear command and rather follow the "lust of the flesh" (cp "saw that the tree wa good for food"), the "lust of the eyes" (cp. "it was pleasant to the eyes") and the "pride of life" (cp. "tree to be desired to make one wise") ... cp. Gen 3:6 with 1Jo 2:16 !

    • “The devil was a creature of God, whose creation fell in the period referred to in Gen. 1:1.

    I know this is a widely accepted idea, but is there any Scripture support for this idea?
    The commonly cited passages from Eze 28 and Isa 14 are not talking about what they are (mis)interpreted to supposedly say

    • “It seems impossible to assemble all that the Bible says about him [Satan] without coming to the conclusion that he is a super-human personal being of high order, created perfect like all God’s creatures, but the author of evil through the conception of an evil thought and the formation of an evil choice in his will. Indeed it is impossible to conceive of the entrance of moral evil into God’s creation apart from the existence of such a personality .”

    When putting widespread theology fantasy about "Satan", "Devil" aside and taking a more careful look at what Scripture indeed does say (rather than what authors interpret into it), it is not all that difficult to note that one should recognize that these words are used with their regular sense and NOT as a proper name or a title, for therein lies the main problem for the difficulties often encountered when dealing with the subject.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    Good sensible article. Thanks for sharing that.

  • JanJan Posts: 249

    I've just noticed, it's already two years old, and not just published.
    I wonder why it popped up in my Facebook feed. But anyway, it's good to have found it.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,720

    From the article:

    As long as God offers freedom to his creation, the free moral agents (e.g. man) would possess the ability to do good or evil. So the question is not about Satan’s existence whereas the question should be about the presence of freedom.

    Indeed ... God created Adam with the ability to do good or evil, and God did create Adam to start out on the "good side" without Adam having been on or experienced ("knowing") evil. God even warned Adam -- in very clear and emphatic words -- what to do and what not to do in order to remain on the good side. One should note that God did not mention any fallen angel Satan/Devil as that evil one who would be causing evil!!

    Satan and his cohorts are busy causing evil in this world.

    Such is propagated by just about any and all theologians in some way ... but is that true??? Who caused evil to enter the world scene? Adam caused evil to enter the world ... by disobedience to God (cp Rom 5:12ff).

    Interesting is, that when confronted by God about his disobedience, Adam tried to place the cause and responsibility for evil on the woman, the woman passed it on to the serpent instead of taking responsibility for his deed.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005
    edited February 2

    It is usually argued that Satan as the archenemy of God is unknown in the Old Testament (See sources). The noun satan means "adversary, opponent" and is used for human and celestial beings. The first celestial being called Satan was the angel of the Lord (Num. 22:22, 32), hardly a demonic figure. Therefore, the noun cannot be used to determine the nature of the celestial being.

    The first time it is used as a proper name is in 1 Chronicles 21:1, to describe a being who incited David to take a census. Interestingly, in 2 Samuel 24:1, this same function is ascribed to God. This is understandable because evil powers are used by God to accomplish His own purposes. When those powers become a threat to His people, He protects them and limits their activities.

    Zechariah 3:1, 2, Satan is an accuser of the servants of God. The Angel of the Lord, the Lord and Satan are together. What is at stake is God's right to forgive His people. This evil power cannot tolerate God's forgiving grace and seeks to hinder sinners from enjoying fellowship with God.

    But possibly the most significant use of the noun satan is recorded in the book of Job, where he is described as the greatest enemy of God (Job 1:7; 2:2). Like the "lying spirit" in the vision of Micaiah, he is a member of the heavenly council and is under the control of the Lord, unable to act in total independence from Him. He is certainly the accuser of Job before the heavenly assembly and the instigator of disease and disaster. In the dialogue with God, Satan is, in fact, attacking God's system of government (See source). He is arguing that God buys human service, and he nurtures selfishness by blessing and protecting human beings. God's way of ruling the universe is not controlled by disinterested love, he argues, but rather by the principle of "I give in order to receive."

    This is an attack on God's rule of love and grace. Here the true nature of the demonic in the Old Testament is revealed. This demonic being came to be known as Satan.

    Truth found truth shared. CM

    SOURCES:

    • -- Peggy L. Day, An Adversary in Heaven: Satan in the Hebrew Bible (Atlanta: Scholars, 1988), 5, 6.

    • -- David J. A. Clines, Job 1-20 (Dallas, Tex.: Word, 1989), 18-27.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Jan said:
    My understanding is that the angels existed, and Satan and his demons fell before the creation of heaven and earth.
    Given the facts that there's no redemption for fallen angels, and God knew from the beginning that a third of his angels would fall, why did he create them in the first place? Or let them roam the earth instead of banishing them to hell right away?

    Human sin is bad enough as it is, but through Satan's influence it becomes even worse.

    My provisional understanding is that God uses Satan as a tool for salvation. If Satan had not entered Judas Iscariot (Luke 22:3), then Judas would not have betrayed Jesus, there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no sacrifice for our sins.

    But could God not have brought about Jesus' crucifixion in a different manner, without requiring Satan's " involuntary assistance"?

    Without sin we have nothing to reveal God's mercy, righteousness, grace, wrath, sovereignty, goodness .....

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    @Jan said:
    My understanding is ... Satan and his demons fell before the creation of heaven and earth.

    Are you sure about this? Do you want to change your views on Satan and his demons falling BEFORE the creation of heaven and earth? What support can you share for your preliminary reasoning on this matter?

    Given the facts that there's no redemption for fallen angels, and God knew from the beginning that a third of his angels would fall, why did he create them in the first place? Or let them roam the earth instead of banishing them to hell right away?

    • Could it be that God allowed the full manifestation of his love to be seen in the face of rebellion or opposition? God doesn't force anyone to do anything, even, the right thing.

    Human sin is bad enough as it is, but through Satan's influence, it becomes even worse.

    Does it really matter? Sin is a sin! Any broken relationship with God is a sin. Sin is rebellion. It's thinking to know better than God or seeks to replace Him.

    My provisional understanding is that God uses Satan as a tool for salvation. If Satan had not entered Judas Iscariot (Luke 22:3), then Judas would not have betrayed Jesus, there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no sacrifice for our sins.

    1. Did Satan enter Judas by force or after he was invited in?
    2. Are you saying God and Satan is some kind of co-laborers?
    3. What constitutes salvation?
    4. Are you trying to say God needs rebellion and unsavory characters to show love and divinity?
    5. To be clear, are you suggestion man and the earth couldn't live in the bliss of God and holiness without Satan or rebellion?
    6. When it comes to Judas Iscariot, what drove the train of event, prophecy or God's foreknowledge of predestination?

    But could God not have brought about Jesus' crucifixion in a different manner, without requiring Satan's "involuntary assistance"?

    1. Is your real question, could Jesus have died in a different manner other than crucifixion? If yes, would it have met the requirements of man's redemption as demanded of heaven?
    2. Did God required Satan's "involuntary assistance" or he knew the hearts (hardness) of the religious leaders and the Roman Government?

    Jan,
    I know it's an old post but viewed with new eyes. In the OP you raised some provocative questions, at the least and troubling questions, at best. Please, consider my questions to bring clarity of understanding to your points. I hope you don't mind the questions. Thanks for your consideration. CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    @Dave_L said:

    @Jan said:

    Without sin we have nothing to reveal God's mercy, righteousness, grace, wrath, sovereignty, goodness .....

    Watch it! Is not love encompasses all these things? CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Jan said:

    Without sin we have nothing to reveal God's mercy, righteousness, grace, wrath, sovereignty, goodness .....

    Watch it! Is not love encompasses all these things? CM

    Love loves the truth too. And without Satan the truth remains unknown. How can we worship God not having been forgiven much?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Jan said:

    Without sin we have nothing to reveal God's mercy, righteousness, grace, wrath, sovereignty, goodness .....

    Watch it! Is not love encompasses all these things? CM

    Love loves the truth too. And without Satan the truth remains unknown. How can we worship God not having been forgiven much?

    Dave,
    I agree with you:

    @Dave_L said: "Love loves the truth too".

    Creation in general and man, in particular, is a manifestation of God's love. However, I can hardly restrain myself from denouncing your statement in the strongest terms:

    @Dave_L said: And without Satan the truth remains unknown. How can we worship God not having been forgiven much?

    1. Are you serious?
    2. Are you really saying God is not or can't be known without Satan?
    3. Are you saying God can't be worshipped without man being forgiven?
    4. Are you saying God can't be known without sin, rebellion, decay, hatred, and vice exist first or side by side?

    This sounds like a "pagan" or "heathen" religion. Are you saying God has to prove Himself or earn the rights to exist? I hope I am misunderstanding your statements. If I am not you are saying God owes his exist to Satan or sin. This is blasphemy! God is so much more than what we can see, hear, or comprehend. CM

  • JanJan Posts: 249

    @C_M_ said:

    @Jan said:
    My understanding is ... Satan and his demons fell before the creation of heaven and earth.

    Are you sure about this? Do you want to change your views on Satan and his demons falling BEFORE the creation of heaven and earth? What support can you share for your preliminary reasoning on this matter?

    Since I advanced on my studies of Mike Heiser's material since I started this thread, I consequently revised several of my views.

    Satan rebelled in Eden.

    https://ref.ly/logosres/unseenrealm?ref=Page.p+77&off=1708

    Given the facts that there's no redemption for fallen angels, and God knew from the beginning that a third of his angels would fall, why did he create them in the first place? Or let them roam the earth instead of banishing them to hell right away?

    In the light of the "unseen realm", I withdraw most of what I said in this sentence…
    Some of the Elohim rebelled, not the angels. And it is doubtful that it was a third of them.

    • Could it be that God allowed the full manifestation of his love to be seen in the face of rebellion or opposition? God doesn't force anyone to do anything, even, the right thing.

    And that's true for the Elohim too.

    Human sin is bad enough as it is, but through Satan's influence, it becomes even worse.

    Does it really matter? Sin is a sin! Any broken relationship with God is a sin. Sin is rebellion. It's thinking to know better than God or seeks to replace Him.

    Not all sin is equal.

    My provisional understanding is that God uses Satan as a tool for salvation. If Satan had not entered Judas Iscariot (Luke 22:3), then Judas would not have betrayed Jesus, there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no sacrifice for our sins.

    1. Did Satan enter Judas by force or after he was invited in?

    It doesn't say. We can only speculate. True believers can't be possessed by force. But then, was Judas a true believer? Probably not.

    1. Are you saying God and Satan is some kind of co-laborers?

    No. I'm not saying anything different than what you said: "This is understandable because evil powers are used by God to accomplish His own purposes."

    1. What constitutes salvation?

    Jesus' death on the cross. Salvation is available for everyone. No limited atonement.

    1. Are you trying to say God needs rebellion and unsavory characters to show love and divinity?

    Not quite. He needs our free will though. Otherwise we'd be nothing but puppets, capable of obedience, but incapable to love or to be loved.

    1. To be clear, are you suggestion man and the earth couldn't live in the bliss of God and holiness without Satan or rebellion?

    Well they did live in the bliss of God and holiness in Eden.
    But the fall was inevitable, with or without fallen Elohim.
    So the question is whether sustainable life in the bliss of God and holiness would be possible without Satan's rebellion.
    And since his rebellion plays such an important role in salvation history, I'm certainly open to that idea.

    1. When it comes to Judas Iscariot, what drove the train of event, prophecy or God's foreknowledge of predestination?

    Logically, free will drives foreknowledge, not the other way around, even if temporally God's foreknowledge existed prior the Judas Iscariot's free decision.

    But could God not have brought about Jesus' crucifixion in a different manner, without requiring Satan's "involuntary assistance"?

    1. Is your real question, could Jesus have died in a different manner other than crucifixion? If yes, would it have met the requirements of man's redemption as demanded of heaven?

    Exactly. If this is the case, then Satan's rebellion would not have been necessary.

    1. Did God required Satan's "involuntary assistance" or he knew the hearts (hardness) of the religious leaders and the Roman Government?

    The hardness of their hearts was not sufficient. See 1 Cor 2:8.

    Jan,
    I know it's an old post but viewed with new eyes. In the OP you raised some provocative questions, at the least and troubling questions, at best. Please, consider my questions to bring clarity of understanding to your points. I hope you don't mind the questions. Thanks for your consideration. CM

    That's very much okay. It's good to revisit old threats like this from time to time.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    @Jan said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Jan said:
    My understanding is ... Satan and his demons fell before the creation of heaven and earth.

    Are you sure about this? Do you want to change your views on Satan and his demons falling BEFORE the creation of heaven and earth? What support can you share for your preliminary reasoning on this matter?

    Since I advanced on my studies of Mike Heiser's material since I started this thread, I consequently revised several of my views.

    That's good, a man growing in knowledge and grace.

    Satan rebelled in Eden.

    I have a problem with this again. Do you mean Adam and Eve rebelled in Eden and not so much the first act of Satan? Lucifer rebelled in heaven along with 1/3 of heavenly angels. They were cast out to the earth.

    Again is it not that Adam and Eve were warned (forbidden tree) and Lucifer (Satan) before they succumbed to rebellion?

    https://ref.ly/logosres/unseenrealm?ref=Page.p+77&off=1708

    Given the facts that there's no redemption for fallen angels, and God knew from the beginning that a third of his angels would fall, why did he create them in the first place? Or let them roam the earth instead of banishing them to hell right away?

    In the light of the "unseen realm", I withdraw most of what I said in this sentence…
    Some of the Elohim rebelled, not the angels. And it is doubtful that it was a third of them.

    • Could it be that God allowed the full manifestation of his love to be seen in the face of rebellion or opposition? God doesn't force anyone to do anything, even, the right thing.

    And that's true for the Elohim too.

    Human sin is bad enough as it is, but through Satan's influence, it becomes even worse.

    Does it really matter? Sin is a sin! Any broken relationship with God is a sin. Sin is rebellion. It's thinking to know better than God or seeks to replace Him.

    Not all sin is equal.

    I am troubled by this. Do you really mean that not all sins have the same consequences? "Sin is the transgression of the law". Not all sins are unto death (eternal or "second death"). Jesus came to defeat sin in the flesh and eradicate it from the earth.

    My provisional understanding is that God uses Satan as a tool for salvation. If Satan had not entered Judas Iscariot (Luke 22:3), then Judas would not have betrayed Jesus, there would have been no crucifixion, and therefore no sacrifice for our sins.

    1. Did Satan enter Judas by force or after he was invited in?

    It doesn't say. We can only speculate. True believers can't be possessed by force. But then, was Judas a true believer? Probably not.

    A closer read of the passage on Judas reveals that he is the only disciple who volunteered to join Jesus, on his own and was not called. Notwithstanding, Is it not true when one entertains to doubt of God (love, grace, mercy, power, etc) and openly rejects God's will, this is an invitation to invite Satan (Devil) into the life (heart), as Judas did? Failure to accept God's will is equivalent to leaving a door opened for the "Enemy" to enter.

    1. To be clear, are you suggestion man and the earth couldn't live in the bliss of God and holiness without Satan or rebellion?

    Well they did live in the bliss of God and holiness in Eden.
    But the fall was inevitable, with or without fallen Elohim.
    So the question is whether sustainable life in the bliss of God and holiness would be possible without Satan's rebellion.
    And since his rebellion plays such an important role in salvation history, I'm certainly open to that idea.

    1. When it comes to Judas Iscariot, what drove the train of event, prophecy or God's foreknowledge of predestination?

    Logically, free will drives foreknowledge, not the other way around, even if temporally God's foreknowledge existed prior the Judas Iscariot's free decision.

    But could God not have brought about Jesus' crucifixion in a different manner, without requiring Satan's "involuntary assistance"?

    1. Is your real question, could Jesus have died in a different manner other than crucifixion? If yes, would it have met the requirements of man's redemption as demanded of heaven?

    Exactly. If this is the case, then Satan's rebellion would not have been necessary.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Jan said:

    Without sin we have nothing to reveal God's mercy, righteousness, grace, wrath, sovereignty, goodness .....

    Watch it! Is not love encompasses all these things? CM

    Love loves the truth too. And without Satan the truth remains unknown. How can we worship God not having been forgiven much?

    Dave,
    I agree with you:

    @Dave_L said: "Love loves the truth too".

    Creation in general and man, in particular, is a manifestation of God's love. However, I can hardly restrain myself from denouncing your statement in the strongest terms:

    @Dave_L said: And without Satan the truth remains unknown. How can we worship God not having been forgiven much?

    1. Are you serious?
    2. Are you really saying God is not or can't be known without Satan?
    3. Are you saying God can't be worshipped without man being forgiven?
    4. Are you saying God can't be known without sin, rebellion, decay, hatred, and vice exist first or side by side?

    This sounds like a "pagan" or "heathen" religion. Are you saying God has to prove Himself or earn the rights to exist? I hope I am misunderstanding your statements. If I am not you are saying God owes his exist to Satan or sin. This is blasphemy! God is so much more than what we can see, hear, or comprehend. CM

    What is grace apart from Satan and wrath for sin?

  • JanJan Posts: 249

    @C_M_ said:

    @Jan said:
    Satan rebelled in Eden.

    I have a problem with this again. Do you mean Adam and Eve rebelled in Eden and not so much the first act of Satan?

    I mean that Satan rebelled in Eden first, before Adam and Eve rebelled.

    Ezekiel 28:12-17 gives evidence for that view. The setting of the entire event seems to be placed in Eden.

    Lucifer rebelled in heaven along with 1/3 of heavenly angels. They were cast out to the earth.

    Let me quote Mike Heiser on this myth directly.

    "One of my favorites is the idea that one-third of the angels rebelled with Satan before the creation of Adam and Eve. There isn’t a single verse in the Bible that says that. In fact, the only place where the language of “one third” accompanies a description of angels is Revelation 12—whose content is associated with the birth of the messiah and the subsequent persecution of believers. The war in heaven is a battle between good and evil to conquer the messiah and his people. It is clearly not set in the primeval past. And yet the idea has been passed on as doctrine."

    Not all sin is equal.

    I am troubled by this. Do you really mean that not all sins have the same consequences? "Sin is the transgression of the law". Not all sins are unto death (eternal or "second death"). Jesus came to defeat sin in the flesh and eradicate it from the earth.

    Luke 12:47-48. The unequal punishment proves that the sin of the two servants is unequal.

  • ASN_032ASN_032 Posts: 26

    If you assume that angels don't have a free will (as some Jewish streams, and very few Christian streams do) then it is very hard to explain why would God create Satan and our free will wouldn't be a good excuse because we could choose to do evil even if he didn't exist, if you'd ask why would we, my simple answer would be due to selfishness or immorality and we should also acknowledge that most people on earth do not worship the same god we do, if any.

    If you assume that angels do have a free will then it is very easy to explain, the leader of the angels who rebelled against God was Satan, and for that he was, is, and will be punished again, but from time to time he acts against God, because he also has his free will and he chose to do evil.

    For understanding our free choice, please read Deuteronomy 30:15-19 : "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,  I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"

    For understanding that everything is from God (including what we consider as bad), please read Isaiah 45:7 : "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

    My opinion is, that all living creatures have a free will, and that, of course, includes the angels, who disobeyed God, as we know, angels were directly created by God, therefore it would be appropriate to call them "Sons of God", therefore, please read Genesis 6:1-4 : "When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,  the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.  Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with[a] humans forever, for they are mortal[b]; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

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