The Holy Spirit [The Biblical View] -- Intelligent Being, Influence ("It") or God?

C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989
edited July 2018 in Bible Questions

Given that non-trinitarians have relegated Jesus to a created being, an angel or some kind of lieutenant God, given certain powers to save mankind, one wonders, what is their view of the Holy Spirit? Better yet, what does the Bible teaches about the Holy Spirit? What is said of the Spirit's nature, character, role, existence, power, and relationship to the Father and the Son? Is the Holy (ghost) Spirit God? Does the Bible teach that the Spirit should be understood to be an influence or Heavenly force? What are the true teachings? Should we pray to the Spirit? What are the biblical manifestations of the Spirit at creation and among men? These and other questions need to be asked to further understand God through His revealed Word. CM

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  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:
    Given that non-trinitarians have relegated Jesus to a created being, an angel or some kind of lieutenant God, given certain powers to save mankind, one wonders, what is their view of the Holy Spirit?

    I am amazed about your reading and comprehending ability ... which seems to actually be replaced by a rather wild imagination

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    As for the meaning of "spirit", I'd suggest you start by doing a study of each passage in the NT where the word "spirit" occurs .... here's a list of occurrences in the gospel according to Matthew:

    Mt 3,16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    Mt 4,1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    Mt 5,3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Mt 10,20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    Mt 12,18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

    Mt 12,28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    Mt 12,43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

    Mt 14,26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

    Mt 22,43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

    Mt 26,41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.

    Have a good look at the text of the verses themselves and the respective contexts ... and would think, you can already determine that there are several different and distinct usages of the word "spirit" found just in these passages.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    Ooops ... just noticed that I forgot to add those passages to my above list of occurrences in Matthew where the KJV translates "ghost" instead of "spirit" ...thus here are some more verses for consideration:

    Mt 1,18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    Mt 1,20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

    Mt 3,11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

    Mt 12,31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    Mt 12,32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

    Mt 27,50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mt 28,19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:
    ... one wonders, what is their view of the Holy Spirit? Better yet, what does the Bible teaches about the Holy Spirit?

    My understanding of the term "[the] Holy Spirit" or "[the] holy spirit" in short is simple and plain and as follows:
    (1) The One Who is God is HOLY (cp. eg. Isa 6:3 - "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory.") and He us SPIRIT (cp John 4:24 - "God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.")
    Thus, in some contexts, I believe the expression "the Holy Spirit" is a reference to God Himself ... similar to how God Himself is called "the Creator" because He created heavens and earth, or is called "the Almighty" because He is all mighty, or is called "the Father" because He is the Father of Messiah Jesus and all who believe on him, etc. None of these terms are speaking about "God-Persons", but they are descriptive terms used for the same one "Person" Who alone is the true God and to Whom all these terms refer.

    (2) In other contexts, "[the] holy spirit" is a term which refers to God's gift to believers, that which God gives or the power by which God acts, etc ... (cp. expressions such as "receive the holy spirit", "be sealed with holy spirit", "baptize with holy spirit", etc.)

    There are occurrences of the word "spirit" without the adjective "holy" in certain contexts which also have the meaning of one of the above.

    On the other hand, there are occurrences of the word "spirit" without the "holy" in other contexts which have no reference to God or that which God gives, etc ... and in each case, it is always the context which provides the key information to determine the correct meaning and usage of the word.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Given that non-trinitarians have relegated Jesus to a created being, an angel or some kind of lieutenant God, given certain powers to save mankind, one wonders, what is their view of the Holy Spirit?

    I am amazed about your reading and comprehending ability ... which seems to actually be replaced by a rather wild imagination

    What are you trying to say here? CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    Thanks for the texts. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks for the texts. CM

    You are welcome ... what do you make of the texts? how do you interpret the texts and what they say in their respective contexts?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks for the texts. CM

    You are welcome ... what do you make of the texts? how do you interpret the texts and what they say in their respective contexts?

    any further input from you, C_M, or others on the topic?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688
    edited July 2018

    Here's a verse from Luke 1 in which "the Holy Spirit" is mentioned:

    Lk 1:15 (NASB 95)
    15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

    What does this verse teach about "the Holy Spirit"?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    @Wolfgang said:
    Here's a verse from Luke 1 in which "the Holy Spirit" is mentioned:

    Lk 1:15 (NASB 95)
    15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

    What does this verse teach about "the Holy Spirit"?

    Wolfgang, how do you define the "Holy Spirit"? CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Here's a verse from Luke 1 in which "the Holy Spirit" is mentioned:

    Lk 1:15 (NASB 95)
    15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

    What does this verse teach about "the Holy Spirit"?

    Wolfgang, how do you define the "Holy Spirit"? CM

    C_M, quit your game playing, please. In addition, I asked what the verse teaches about "the Holy Spirit" ... so, please, answer or if you don't know then admit that you do't know or if you know but don't want to tell then be honest and tell us that you refuse to answer the question.

    How I define the "Holy Spirit" is not relevant. Was it not YOU who started this thread? IF so, why don't you define the terms you are using in the topic line?

    I gave a whole list of verses from Mat where the term is used and mentioned that the text and context would determine the meaning of the particular usage ... I would think that the same applies to this verse from Lk 1:15 ...

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Wolfgang, how do you define the "Holy Spirit"? CM

    C_M, quit your game playing, please. In addition, I asked what the verse teaches about "the Holy Spirit" ... so, please, answer or if you don't know then admit that you do't know or if you know but don't want to tell then be honest and tell us that you refuse to answer the question.

    How I define the "Holy Spirit" is not relevant...

    Huh!

    Was it not YOU who started this thread? IF so, why don't you define the terms you are using in the topic line?

    Yes, you're right! I started the thread. Please, REVIEW why I started the thread. Here is the OP:

    @C_M_ said:
    Given that non-trinitarians have relegated Jesus to a created being, an angel or some kind of lieutenant God, given certain powers to save mankind, one wonders, what is their view of the Holy Spirit? Better yet, what does the Bible teaches about the Holy Spirit? What is said of the Spirit's nature, character, role, existence, power, and relationship to the Father and the Son? Is the Holy (ghost) Spirit God? Does the Bible teach that the Spirit should be understood to be an influence or Heavenly force? What are the true teachings? Should we pray to the Spirit? What are the biblical manifestations of the Spirit at creation and among men? These and other questions need to be asked to further understand God through His revealed Word. CM

    NOW, Who's playing games?

    I gave a whole list of verses from Mat where the term is used and mentioned that the text and context would determine the meaning of the particular usage ... I would think that the same applies to this verse from Lk 1:15 ...

    So, how do you define the Holy Spirit? The question remains if you choose to answer.

    Wolfgang said: "please, answer or if you don't know then admit that you do't know or if you know but don't want to tell then be honest and tell us that you refuse to answer the question."

    Be at peace with God, others, and self. I will see you around the forums. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    So, how do you define the Holy Spirit? The question remains if you choose to answer.

    I already provided a whole list of occurrences of the term in Mt, as well as a verse from Luke 1. These verses and their contexts provide very well how I understand the term.

    Lk 1:15 (NASB 95)
    15 “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.

    For example, carefully read Lk 1:15 and note what it says about the holy spirit ... this verse and context speaks / defines the holy spirit as something with which John the baptist would be filled from even his mother's womb.

    There is my simple and plain understanding of what the verse says ... how do you define the term as to what the words mean??

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688
    edited July 2018

    Here are some more verses from Luke where the term "holy spirit" /" holy ghost" is used:

    Lk 1,41
    And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
    Lk 1,67
    And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    Here we read of Elisabeth and also of Zacharias being filled with holy spirit ... which can hardly mean that they were filled with the "3rd person of God"!!

    Another occurrence of the term "the holy spirit" in Lk 11:

    Lk 11:13
    If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    Here we have Jesus' own words recorded and he defines and speaks of "the holy spirit" as something which will be given to believers by God, his Father.

    Does "one person of God" (the Father) give "a 3rd person of God" (the Holy Spirit) as a gift to believers??? Or is it rather clear that Jesus is not talking about "the 3rd person of God" !!

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    And a few more rather illuminating verses concerning "the Holy Spirit (Ghost)" which are very simple and easy to understand, from the gospel of John

    Joh 1,33
    And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    John the baptist defines and speaks about the holy spirit as something with which the one coming after him would baptize ... Does anyone understand John the baptist to be saying that he knew or taught something here about a "2nd person of God" baptizing people with "the 3rd person of God"?

    Next we read from about what Jesus himself said ...

    Joh 7,39
    (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Here we are told that Jesus spoke about "the Holy Ghost", here also just called "the Spirit", which would be given and which would be received by believers. Once again, this is not speaking about "the Spirit"/"the Holy Ghost" being a "3rd person of God", is it?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” (2 Corinthians 3:17–18)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Dave_L said:
    “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is present, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” (2 Corinthians 3:17–18)

    And what does the verse say when considering it in light of the many other verses that were already listed here in various posts?
    Is it contradicting what the other verses clearly state? If not, how does it harmonize with those verses along the lines of "scripture interprets scripture"?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    It says the Holy Spirit is the Lord.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Dave_L said:
    It says the Holy Spirit is the Lord.

    Reading a bit more carefully, one can notice that the verse has 3 distinct uses of the word "spirit" without the adjective "holy" in 3 different expressions: (a) "the lord is the spirit", (b) "where the spirit of the Lord is present", and (c) "from the Lord, who is the spirit". Two of these connect "lord" and "spirit" by stating that the lord IS the spirit. One however speaks of "the spirit OF the Lord" ... quite different.
    Thus, the verse does NOT state what you claim it says ... as it does not even use the term "the holy spirit". Nor does it say "the spirit is the lord", but rather "the lord is the spirit" which may not be exactly the same, depending on the usage of the word "is" in the expression.

    You also did not really answer my question about what the verse says in light of the many other verses that were already listed ... do you care to answer?
    Furthermore, I would appreciate if you answered the other question I asked, "Is it contradicting what the other verses clearly state? If not, how does it harmonize with those verses along the lines of "scripture interprets scripture"?

    When you say above "the Holy Spirit is the Lord", do you mean the 2nd person of God IS (=) the 3rd person of God?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    If you think in materialistic ways, looking for an analogy to represent God, you will probably fail. But One God shares divine attributes among three self willed entities who are one in perfection and purpose.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Dave_L said:
    If you think in materialistic ways, looking for an analogy to represent God, you will probably fail. But One God shares divine attributes among three self willed entities who are one in perfection and purpose.

    I am waiting for your answers to the questions you were asked ... instead of adding more ideas and an evasive statements which only leaves more questions.
    What is your last sentence here ("One God shares divine attributes among three self willed entities who are one in perfection and purpose") supposed to say and mean? One God shares divine attributes ... ?? among three self willed entities ?? etc.

    By the way, I agree with Jesus when he declared that he and God, his Father, were one, and I would say it was a oneness in purpose.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    If you think in materialistic ways, looking for an analogy to represent God, you will probably fail. But One God shares divine attributes among three self willed entities who are one in perfection and purpose.

    I am waiting for your answers to the questions you were asked ... instead of adding more ideas and an evasive statements which only leaves more questions.
    What is your last sentence here ("One God shares divine attributes among three self willed entities who are one in perfection and purpose") supposed to say and mean? One God shares divine attributes ... ?? among three self willed entities ?? etc.

    By the way, I agree with Jesus when he declared that he and God, his Father, were one, and I would say it was a oneness in purpose.

    Only God is perfect in the absolute sense. And three share this perfection and eternity. All else is created.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    Here are verses from Romans in which the term "the holy ghost" occurs:

    Rom 5:5
    And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    The holy ghost / holy spirit is something that is given to believers.

    Rom 9:1 I
    say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost ... bearing witness IN the holy spirit.
    Rom 14:17
    For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Here we read that the kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy IN the holy spirit ... again, these uses are not referring to a 3rd person of God, are they?

    A few more from 1Co follow:

    1Cor 6:19
    What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

    The holy spirit is IN the believer, has been given by God to the believer ... again, this verse does not speak about a 3rd person of God.

    1Cor 12:3
    Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    This verse speaks about someone speaking and saying something BY the holy spirit. Also, the two expressions "spirit of God" and "the holy spirit" are used interchangeably in this verse.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @Dave_L said:
    It says the Holy Spirit is the Lord.

    In light of your belief in the Holy Trinity, are you saying above that the Holy Spirit (3rd person of God) is the Lord (the Son, 2nd person of God, who is claimed to be the Lord?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,324

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    It says the Holy Spirit is the Lord.

    In light of your belief in the Holy Trinity, are you saying above that the Holy Spirit (3rd person of God) is the Lord (the Son, 2nd person of God, who is claimed to be the Lord?

    God = Lord.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    So God = Lord .... but according to Peter in Acts 2, God made Jesus to be both lord and Christ. Something a little different from what you are saying ...

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    A few more occurrences of the word "spirit" in Galatians

    Gal 3,2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Gal 3,3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    Gal 3,5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    Gal 3,14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    The verses speak of receiving the spirit, ministering the spirit, having begun in the spirit and that the spirit was promised ... seems rather plain and clear that these texts have nothing whatever to do with a 3rd person of a Trinity God.

    Gal 4,6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

    How would this relate to a Trinity Godhead ??

    Gal 4,29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
    Gal 5,5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Again, these two passages also seem to have nothing to do with a "3rd Trinity Godhead person"

    Gal 5,16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    Gal 5,17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    Gal 5,18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Gal 5,22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    Gal 5,25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    Is it not clear that expressions like the ones used here, such as "walk in the spirit", "be led of the spirit", "fruit of the spirit", "live in in the spirit" are not speaking about a "3rd Trinity Godhead person" ??

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    The word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible, however, the concept of the Trinity is present and is progressively revealed. From it, one can learn the lesson of how important it is to gradually present this teaching to our friends so that they may also step by step become familiar with it and grow into a full understanding of God’s truth.

    The term "elohim" is used 2,603 times in the Hebrew Bible (See Source below). Several names or titles are used in the Hebrew Scripture for God, like Yahweh (LORD), El (God), Elohim (God), Elyon (Most High), El Elyon (God Most High), Adonay (Lord), Shadday (Almighty), El Shadday (God Almighty), etc.

    Another title as a grammatical plural for the living God (besides Elohim) is Adonay (Lord). This term is used only for the true God and never designates pagan gods. He is the Lord of His household. See, for examples, Gen 18:30; Exod 34:23; Deut 10:17; Josh 3:11, 13; Pss 35:23; 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Isa 6:1; Dan 1:2; Mal 1:6.

    From the Scripture, the concept of the Trinity is taught. I make no apologies and am I not ashamed. This is beyond human reasoning and comprehension. It's a part of God's self-disclosure of himself (revelation). Just because man's "pea-brain" can't wrap itself around who God is One in three-distinct Beings, it doesn't mean that it's nonsense or God is not. It is through faith (Heb 11:1) a measure God has given to every. In addition, one's faith grows by hearing the Word of God (via "Inspired" - "God breathe" as they were moved by the Holy Spirit).

    God surpasses even the best mathematical formulas, like 1+1+1=1 (illogical one) or 1x1x1=1 (mathematically correct), or graphic designs, like the triangle or the circle with three parts inside, or the unity of two persons in a harmonious marriage. All these analogies cannot express adequately the inner unity and harmony within the three persons of the Godhead.

    The Holy Spirit is a divine person, equal in substance, power, and glory with the Father and the Son is manifested throughout Scripture.

    The Holy Spirit is a Personal Being

    • (a) Some have questioned whether the Holy Spirit is a distinct person or only the “power” or “force” of God. There are a number of verses where the Holy Spirit is mentioned together with the Father and the Son (Matt 28:19; 1 Cor 12:4-6; 2 Cor 13:14). This indicates that the Father and the Son are persons, the Holy Spirit, therefore should also be a person.
    • (b) Frequently, the masculine pronoun “he” is used in reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13,14), in spite of the fact that the word for Spirit in Greek (pneuma) is neuter and not masculine.
    • (c) The word “counselor” or “comforter” (parakletos) uniformly refers to a person, not a force.
    • (d) The Holy Spirit According to Scripture:

    ----- 1. Speak (Acts 8:29)
    ----- 2. Teach (John 14:26)
    ----- 3. Bear witness (John 15:26)
    ----- 4. Intercede on behalf of others (Rom 8:26-27)
    ----- 5. Distribute gifts to others (1 Cor 12:11)
    ----- 6. To forbid or allows certain things (Acts 16:6-7).
    ----- 7. According to Ephesians 4:30, the Holy Spirit can also be grieved by people.

    All these activities are characteristic of a person not a force.

    ------------------ -------------- ------------ -----------
    Before God, we are like a small child with an extremely limited understanding. It is said that Augustine was walking at the seashore while thinking about the vastness of God and the mystery of the Trinity. He saw a small boy who was pouring sea water repeatedly into his hole in the sand. “What are you doing?” Augustine asked the boy. “Well, I am trying to pour the ocean into my hole!” he answered. Then Augustine whispered to himself (in another version of the story, Augustine heard a voice from heaven saying): “You silly man, you try a similar thing, to put an infinite God into the boundaries of your small brain.”

    Many on CD need to consider this parable in thinking about God as One (Trinity). CM

    SOURCE:

    -- Even-Shoshan, Abraham. 1993. A New Concordance of the Old Testament. Jerusalem, Israel: Kiryat Sefer Publishing House, (1993:69-74).

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,688

    @C_M_ said:
    The word “Trinity” never appears in the Bible, however, the concept of the Trinity is present and is progressively revealed.

    On what is this assumption based? how can a concept appear in the Bible, yet not once be defined or named ?? Shouldn't this fact that the concept is not mentioned alone be sufficient evidence that the concept itself isn't present in the Bible but rather is only a false extra-biblical interpretation?

    From it, one can learn the lesson of how important it is to gradually present this teaching to our friends so that they may also step by step become familiar with it and grow into a full understanding of God’s truth.

    What logic is expressed in this statement?

    The term "elohim" is used 2,603 times in the Hebrew Bible (See Source below). Several names or titles are used in the Hebrew Scripture for God, like Yahweh (LORD), El (God), Elohim (God), Elyon (Most High), El Elyon (God Most High), Adonay (Lord), Shadday (Almighty), El Shadday (God Almighty), etc.

    And all these refer to only ONE INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT BEING ... in the NT more often referred to as "the Father"

    Another title as a grammatical plural for the living God (besides Elohim) is Adonay (Lord). This term is used only for the true God and never designates pagan gods. He is the Lord of His household. See, for examples, Gen 18:30; Exod 34:23; Deut 10:17; Josh 3:11, 13; Pss 35:23; 45:11; 114:7; 135:5; Isa 6:1; Dan 1:2; Mal 1:6.

    The use of the plural rather than singular is what determines the usage and meaning of the term as a reference to that same ONE INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT BEING mentioned in the previous paragraph. In contrast, the singular would be a reference to any other "lord".

    From the Scripture, the concept of the Trinity is taught.

    See above ... nothing in Scripture teaches the Trinity. The plain truth about it is that It is solely a concept which -- as a doctrine and dogma -- was not even known until the 3rd and 4th century AD. Certain "Trinity" Godheads were known before only in some other ancient pagan mythological religions (Babylon, Egypt, etc)

    I make no apologies and am I not ashamed. This is beyond human reasoning and comprehension.

    Not at all ... the Trinity is a concept developed by humans and thus by human reasoning, it is an attempt to classify "Gods" into certain categories etc and to define "God" ... but in a manner which is obviously contrary to OT and NT revelation in Scripture; and in order to impose it on Christianity, the big fat claim "despite the obvious Three (imagined gods) it really is only One (supposedly real god)" is declared to be "beyond human reasoning" and "a great mystery" which "must be accepted by faith".
    Of course, with such an idea which then was supported by political and physical force even to the point of execution, this doctrine of devils was then in the 4th century AD established as binding for "true followers of the one and only true church" ...

    It's a part of God's self-disclosure of himself (revelation).

    How could it be when God's self-disclosure in the Bible is plain and clear regarding Him (a singular individual Being) and knows nothing about a "Trio" or "Triunity" or "Trinity" ???

    Just because man's "pea-brain" can't wrap itself around who God is One in three-distinct Beings, it doesn't mean that it's nonsense or God is not. It is through faith (Heb 11:1) a measure God has given to every. In addition, one's faith grows by hearing the Word of God (via "Inspired" - "God breathe" as they were moved by the Holy Spirit).

    See above ... Biblical faith/believing/trust is based on Biblical information (revealed Word of God). Having faith in, putting trust in, believing "something" does NOT make that "something" to be true!! When the "something" is a lie, a person believing it does not change that lie into truth, but rather the person is believing a lie.
    Why is it that Christians seem to not want to realize this simple plain truth ??

    God surpasses even the best mathematical formulas, like 1+1+1=1 (illogical one) or 1x1x1=1 (mathematically correct), or graphic designs, like the triangle or the circle with three parts inside, or the unity of two persons in a harmonious marriage. All these analogies cannot express adequately the inner unity and harmony within the three persons of the Godhead.

    All such attempts at "justifying" or "explaining" the false dogma of the Trinity only show that it is a false human designed and defined dogma ... which really can NOT be true, no matter how loud or how much anyone claims it is.

    The Holy Spirit is a divine person, equal in substance, power, and glory with the Father and the Son is manifested throughout Scripture.

    "The Holy Spirit" is in certain contexts in Scripture used as a reference to the ONE SINGULAR INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT BEING who is also in Scripture referred to as Almighty, Creator, YHWH, Father, Ancient of Days, Most High, etc. These are not "distinct persons of God", but solely descriptive titles, etc of only ONE "God person". There are NOT Three (Father, Holy Spirit, Son) or more or less "persons of the Godhead".

    In by far most other occurrences of the term holy spirit in the Scriptures, it is a reference to what God, the Holy Spirit, gives to those who believe in Him and in Messiah Jesus as a gift (the gift holy spirit).

    Before God, we are like a small child with an extremely limited understanding. It is said that Augustine was walking at the seashore while thinking about the vastness of God and the mystery of the Trinity. He saw a small boy who was pouring sea water repeatedly into his hole in the sand. “What are you doing?” Augustine asked the boy. “Well, I am trying to pour the ocean into my hole!” he answered. Then Augustine whispered to himself (in another version of the story, Augustine heard a voice from heaven saying): “You silly man, you try a similar thing, to put an infinite God into the boundaries of your small brain.”

    Indeed ... that is exactly what Trinitarians are trying to do ... put God into their "Holy Trinity" hole in the sand, instead of accepting that God is NOT such a construct, but indeed only ONE INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT BEING (and not three distinct persons of some sort).

    Many on CD need to consider this parable in thinking about God as One (Trinity).

    See note just above ...

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,989

    @Wolfgang said:
    A few more occurrences of the word "spirit" in Galatians

    Gal 5:5-- For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    Proverbs 10:28 talks about the hope of the righteous. For this hope, see Joel 3:16; Galatians 5:5; Ephesians 2:12, 13; Colossians 1:27; 1 Thessalonians 5:8; 1 Timothy 1:1; Titus 1:2; 2:13. You'll see a common thread running through all of these verses.

    It is obvious that God's ministration of righteousness (referring here to His justifying action) belongs with the presence of the Spirit. In Romans 5:5, the Christian's future hope of sharing the glory of God is based upon the present experience of the love of God, given through the Spirit.

     -- This confident hope is nothing else but "the final verdict of acquittal in the divine judgment."—H. Ridderbos, **The Epistle of Paul to the Churches of Galatia**, (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1965), p. 189.
    

    For more on Galatians 5:5, read for yourself the source below: Caspar Schwenckfeld, "Exposition of Ezekiel 17, Galatians 5:5, and Hebrews 3:14," Letters and Treatises of Caspar Schwenckfeld von Qssiqn— 1552-1 554, in Corpus Schwenckfeldianorum, 14 vols., ed. Ellsworth Schultz (Leipzig: Breitkopf E. Hartel, 1935), 13:34.

     --In 1541, Schwenckfeld published the Great Confession on the Glory of Christ. Many considered the writing to be heretical. He taught that Christ had two natures, divine, and human, but that he became progressively more divine.
    

    The Holy Spirit was mightily at work in the book of Acts (See Acts 3:1-11; 6:3-8; 9:36-42; 16:25-34, etc). We must remember the many statements concerning the need of the Holy Spirit in the life of every believer. No one should minimize the importance of the Holy Spirit in the Christian’s life.

    The Holy Spirit was to reveal “the deep things of God” to the believer (1 Corinthians 2:10), to seal him as God’s own possession (Ephesians 1:13), and to be the assurance of Christ’s presence with His church “even unto the end of the world.” Matthew 28:20. See also John 14:21-23.

    Additional Source:
    -- George E. Ladd. The Holy Spirit in Galatians, In Current Issues in Biblical and Patristic Interpretation, edited by G. F. Hawthorne, 211-216. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1975.

    A contribution to and an expansion of the conversation on the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:5). CM

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