A simple illustration of Sovereignty and Free Will.

Dave_L

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat chooses to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and also the goat choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God controls the reasons.

London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession: Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;

“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

GaoLu

Cute story and I see a lot of relevance there. I will keep and use it. Thanks.

One problem with the analogy, a minor detail, is that a holy God is not of such low moral character as to create a man for evil and to put a carrot to do evil in front of his creations whom He created to have evil desires.

James corrects any such nonsense like this:

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him. When tempted, no one should say, “- God” is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed." -James 1:12-14

Dave_L

@GaoLu said:
Cute story and I see a lot of relevance there. Thanks.

One problem with the analogy, a minor detail, is that a holy God is not of such low moral character as to create and put a carrot to do evil in front of his creations whom He created to have evil desires.

James corrects any such nonsense like this:

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him. When tempted, no one should say, “- God” is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed." -James 1:12-14

I understand what you are saying, but please consider God's wrath for sin and his using sin to punish sin. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) The trade off is whether the wicked control God, or if he controls them?

“Jesus answered them, “I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34)

GaoLu

Sinful practice leads to slavery to sin, as Jesus says. Not the other way around.

[Deleted User]

@Dave_L said:
I understand what you are saying, but please consider God's wrath for sin and his using sin to punish sin.

God is using sin to punish sin? I see no such idea mentioned or taught anywhere in Scripure .... but then, since I do not believe in a Trinity God(s), I might just be a terrible fellow under sin who can't even read the Bible ?

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) The trade off is whether the wicked control God, or if he controls them?

The wicked do not control God, nor does God control the wicked.

God has made everlasting life available via the accomplished work of His Messiah, the man Jesus of Nazareth giving his life a ransom as sin-sacrifice. Everlasting life is granted as a gift to that person (sinner), who believes (trusts) in what God has accomplished through Messiah Jesus ... the person (sinner) who does not believe in God's Son and the redemptive work which he accomplished through his sacrifice, will not see eternal life but remains under God's righteous punishment for sin, which is "eternal death / no eternal life".

“Jesus answered them, “I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34)

Indeed ... so what does that have to do with your above claim?

Dave_L

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
I understand what you are saying, but please consider God's wrath for sin and his using sin to punish sin.

God is using sin to punish sin? I see no such idea mentioned or taught anywhere in Scripure .... but then, since I do not believe in a Trinity God(s), I might just be a terrible fellow under sin who can't even read the Bible ?

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36) The trade off is whether the wicked control God, or if he controls them?

The wicked do not control God, nor does God control the wicked.

God has made everlasting life available via the accomplished work of His Messiah, the man Jesus of Nazareth giving his life a ransom as sin-sacrifice. Everlasting life is granted as a gift to that person (sinner), who believes (trusts) in what God has accomplished through Messiah Jesus ... the person (sinner) who does not believe in God's Son and the redemptive work which he accomplished through his sacrifice, will not see eternal life but remains under God's righteous punishment for sin, which is "eternal death / no eternal life".

“Jesus answered them, “I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave of sin.” (John 8:34)

Indeed ... so what does that have to do with your above claim?

If you are aware that God uses sin to punish sin, it stands out when you read through your bible. Some of the worst cases are in Deuteronomy 28 where greater sins follow previous sins.

Pharaoh is another good example. Also King Saul...etc.