Do we really understand Death?

Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

The bible says Christians go to heaven when they die. And Paul’s says he prefers dying and being with the Lord over living on earth.

The bible also speaks of the wicked receiving greater eternal punishment for greater sins. And those who sin more suffer more. (This is not a debate about hell. If you do not think hell exists. Or if you believe God saves all in the end, please excuse yourself from hijacking this thread).

Because of this, do we properly evaluate the death we see around us? Are we creating more problems in saving lives that we would be letting events take their course? Do we preserve the life of the wicked so they can sin and suffer more for it? Do we preserve our Christian lives so we can suffer the dangers and miseries of old age in place of eternal bliss?

Was the slaughter of the Canaanites an act of God's mercy? Or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah a means to reduce their suffering in eternity? How about all the death we see around us? How about Christians facing death not defending themselves?

Any thoughts welcome.

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Comments

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,075

    @Dave_L said:
    The bible says Christians go to heaven when they die. And Paul’s says he prefers dying and being with the Lord over living on earth.

    The bible also speaks of the wicked receiving greater eternal punishment for greater sins. And those who sin more suffer more. (This is not a debate about hell. If you do not think hell exists. Or if you believe God saves all in the end, please excuse yourself from hijacking this thread).

    Because of this, do we properly evaluate the death we see around us? Are we creating more problems in saving lives that we would be letting events take their course? Do we preserve the life of the wicked so they can sin and suffer more for it? Do we preserve our Christian lives so we can suffer the dangers and miseries of old age in place of eternal bliss?

    Was the slaughter of the Canaanites an act of God's mercy? Or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah a means to reduce their suffering in eternity? How about all the death we see around us? How about Christians facing death not defending themselves?

    Any thoughts welcome.

    Hey Dave.

    I think that we should always try to preserve life. I don't think that there is any indication that we should just let things take their course. Jesus healing people who were dying or in some cases already dead are great examples.

    The slaughter of those civilizations was punishment for their wickedness on this earth.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:
    The bible says Christians go to heaven when they die. And Paul’s says he prefers dying and being with the Lord over living on earth.

    The bible also speaks of the wicked receiving greater eternal punishment for greater sins. And those who sin more suffer more. (This is not a debate about hell. If you do not think hell exists. Or if you believe God saves all in the end, please excuse yourself from hijacking this thread).

    Because of this, do we properly evaluate the death we see around us? Are we creating more problems in saving lives that we would be letting events take their course? Do we preserve the life of the wicked so they can sin and suffer more for it? Do we preserve our Christian lives so we can suffer the dangers and miseries of old age in place of eternal bliss?

    Was the slaughter of the Canaanites an act of God's mercy? Or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah a means to reduce their suffering in eternity? How about all the death we see around us? How about Christians facing death not defending themselves?

    Any thoughts welcome.

    Hey Dave.

    I think that we should always try to preserve life. I don't think that there is any indication that we should just let things take their course. Jesus healing people who were dying or in some cases already dead are great examples.

    The slaughter of those civilizations was punishment for their wickedness on this earth.

    I understand your point. But according to the bible, less life = less sin to answer for. And this does not affect the elect. Jesus says all whom the Father gave to him will come to him. This means none will die before their time.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    @Dave_L I am sure this is not what you mean, but the logical extension of your argument to me would seem to be that killing all the unsaved (or letting them die as soon as possible) would be an act of mercy. Help me out here. What about Hell? Wouldn't they be better off here than there? I suppose in all eternity a few years here or there wouldn't matter much.

    Our theologies may not align on a few points, but I think letting them live is the better option because they still have an opportunity to see their sin, recognize Christ as their savior, accept Christ as their Lord, repent and be saved.

    Another challenge is, regardless of our soteriological details, how do we figure out who is saved or unsaved?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @GaoLu said:
    @Dave_L I am sure this is not what you mean, but the logical extension of your argument to me would seem to be that killing all the unsaved (or letting them die as soon as possible) would be an act of mercy. Help me out here. What about Hell? Wouldn't they be better off here than there? I suppose in all eternity a few years here or there wouldn't matter much.

    Our theologies may not align on a few points, but I think letting them live is the better option because they still have an opportunity to see their sin, recognize Christ as their savior, accept Christ as their Lord, repent and be saved.

    Another challenge is, regardless of our soteriological details, how do we figure out who is saved or unsaved?

    Nobody dies before their time. So it is a none issue in view of this. But what I'm saying is that even the slaughter of the Canaanites was an act of God's mercy, just as Paul's delivering the incestuous Corinthian to Satan for the destruction of the flesh.

    We see the horrors of Canaan but overlook the mercy.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367

    I understand now what you are saying. Thanks.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    Not really talking about that. But about death to the wicked as an act of mercy keeping them from suffering more severe punishment in Hell.

  • GaoLuGaoLu Posts: 1,367
    edited October 2018
    In your theology, how bad is hell for a baby that has died?
    Post edited by GaoLu on
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @GaoLu said:
    In your theology, how bad is hell for a baby that has died?

    Not as bad as it would be for a geezer who lived a life of debauchery.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,075

    @Dave_L said:

    Not really talking about that. But about death to the wicked as an act of mercy keeping them from suffering more severe punishment in Hell.

    Death to the wicked is not an act of mercy. Not sure how in the world you would arrive at that conclusion.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    Not really talking about that. But about death to the wicked as an act of mercy keeping them from suffering more severe punishment in Hell.

    Death to the wicked is not an act of mercy. Not sure how in the world you would arrive at that conclusion.

    It of course is wrath, but less sin to answer for can also be attributed to God's goodness.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,075

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    Not really talking about that. But about death to the wicked as an act of mercy keeping them from suffering more severe punishment in Hell.

    Death to the wicked is not an act of mercy. Not sure how in the world you would arrive at that conclusion.

    It of course is wrath, but less sin to answer for can also be attributed to God's goodness.

    So what is your point exactly? I'm confused..

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    Not really talking about that. But about death to the wicked as an act of mercy keeping them from suffering more severe punishment in Hell.

    Death to the wicked is not an act of mercy. Not sure how in the world you would arrive at that conclusion.

    It of course is wrath, but less sin to answer for can also be attributed to God's goodness.

    So what is your point exactly? I'm confused..

    Early death = less sin = less suffering in hell = goodness of God in cutting life short for the reprobate.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,075

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    Not really talking about that. But about death to the wicked as an act of mercy keeping them from suffering more severe punishment in Hell.

    Death to the wicked is not an act of mercy. Not sure how in the world you would arrive at that conclusion.

    It of course is wrath, but less sin to answer for can also be attributed to God's goodness.

    So what is your point exactly? I'm confused..

    Early death = less sin = less suffering in hell = goodness of God in cutting life short for the reprobate.

    Where do you see evidence of less suffering in hell?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    The bible says Christians go to heaven when they die. And Paul’s says he prefers dying and being with the Lord over living on earth.

    Careful, careful ... context - both textual and historic - should be observed. Prior to the resurrection becoming reality at the last day of that age, believers did NOT go to heaven when they died but rather are said to have been in Hades (the realm of the dead) from where they were raised and changed with the resurrection on the last day. Only after the coming of the Lord and the resurrection becoming reality, the believers/Christians then living will not go to Hades when they die but will be changed in a moment's time and be received up in the presence of God (heaven).

    Paul's reference was in connection with his hope of being alive at the time of the coming of the Lord and being changed and received into heaven without first going to Hades.

    The bible also speaks of the wicked receiving greater eternal punishment for greater sins.

    Any Scripture passage which actually promotes such an idea?

    And those who sin more suffer more. (This is not a debate about hell. If you do not think hell exists. Or if you believe God saves all in the end, please excuse yourself from hijacking this thread).

    I am not hijacking this thread, but would like for you to substantiate your assumptions and claims.
    As far as I can see in Scripture, even one sin causes the loss of eternal life and being condemned to eternal death.

    Because of this, do we properly evaluate the death we see around us?

    Are you referring to people dying at the end of their life on earth with "the death around us" ? This death may not even be related to a person committing a sin ... as many innocent people (such as babies who have never overstepped a command of God and thus never committed a sin) have died this death.

    Are we creating more problems in saving lives that we would be letting events take their course?

    This is a totally "backwards" and therefore false logic assumption. IF your logic here had any merit, then the best would be to kill other people as soon as you can get a hold of them so that they won't be able to commit any sin ... You indirectly promote murder as effective tool to save other people from the kind of hell you have in mind?

    Do we preserve the life of the wicked so they can sin and suffer more for it? Do we preserve our Christian lives so we can suffer the dangers and miseries of old age in place of eternal bliss?

    ??? sorry, but these questions express Insane thoughts ...

    Was the slaughter of the Canaanites an act of God's mercy? Or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah a means to reduce their suffering in eternity? How about all the death we see around us? How about Christians facing death not defending themselves?

    No ... as far as Canaanites and Sodom and Gomorrah, it was an act of God's justice.
    As far as the death seen around us, see above.
    As far as Christians not defending themselves, in most cases, it would be an act of rather obeying God than men

    Any thoughts welcome.

    Here I provided my thoughts in detail, which led me to question the validity of your questions and your theological position expressed thereby. Now, I would appreciate if you would IN DETAIL reply to the points I raised, and NOT reply with a "general swoop statement" and "empty repetition of your already stated point"

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    The bible says Christians go to heaven when they die. And Paul’s says he prefers dying and being with the Lord over living on earth.

    Careful, careful ... context - both textual and historic - should be observed. Prior to the resurrection becoming reality at the last day of that age, believers did NOT go to heaven when they died but rather are said to have been in Hades (the realm of the dead) from where they were raised and changed with the resurrection on the last day. Only after the coming of the Lord and the resurrection becoming reality, the believers/Christians then living will not go to Hades when they die but will be changed in a moment's time and be received up in the presence of God (heaven).

    Paul's reference was in connection with his hope of being alive at the time of the coming of the Lord and being changed and received into heaven without first going to Hades.

    The bible also speaks of the wicked receiving greater eternal punishment for greater sins.

    Any Scripture passage which actually promotes such an idea?

    And those who sin more suffer more. (This is not a debate about hell. If you do not think hell exists. Or if you believe God saves all in the end, please excuse yourself from hijacking this thread).

    I am not hijacking this thread, but would like for you to substantiate your assumptions and claims.
    As far as I can see in Scripture, even one sin causes the loss of eternal life and being condemned to eternal death.

    Because of this, do we properly evaluate the death we see around us?

    Are you referring to people dying at the end of their life on earth with "the death around us" ? This death may not even be related to a person committing a sin ... as many innocent people (such as babies who have never overstepped a command of God and thus never committed a sin) have died this death.

    Are we creating more problems in saving lives that we would be letting events take their course?

    This is a totally "backwards" and therefore false logic assumption. IF your logic here had any merit, then the best would be to kill other people as soon as you can get a hold of them so that they won't be able to commit any sin ... You indirectly promote murder as effective tool to save other people from the kind of hell you have in mind?

    Do we preserve the life of the wicked so they can sin and suffer more for it? Do we preserve our Christian lives so we can suffer the dangers and miseries of old age in place of eternal bliss?

    ??? sorry, but these questions express Insane thoughts ...

    Was the slaughter of the Canaanites an act of God's mercy? Or destroying Sodom and Gomorrah a means to reduce their suffering in eternity? How about all the death we see around us? How about Christians facing death not defending themselves?

    No ... as far as Canaanites and Sodom and Gomorrah, it was an act of God's justice.
    As far as the death seen around us, see above.
    As far as Christians not defending themselves, in most cases, it would be an act of rather obeying God than men

    Any thoughts welcome.

    Here I provided my thoughts in detail, which led me to question the validity of your questions and your theological position expressed thereby. Now, I would appreciate if you would IN DETAIL reply to the points I raised, and NOT reply with a "general swoop statement" and "empty repetition of your already stated point"

    Paul clears up all of the confusion about what happens when believers die.

    “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” (Philippians 1:23)

    We can adjust other passages to accommodate this or that theory, but here Paul specifically says we are with Christ. Elsewhere Peters says this is Heaven where Jesus reigns at the right hand of God on David's Throne.

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    Paul clears up all of the confusion about what happens when believers die.

    “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” (Philippians 1:23)

    We can adjust other passages to accommodate this or that theory, but here Paul specifically says we are with Christ. Elsewhere Peters says this is Heaven where Jesus reigns at the right hand of God on David's Throne.

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31)

    As already mentioned before, CONTEXT is what determines the correct and true meaning.

    And as I already mentioned and thought you would do, you did: Refused to answer in detail and instead threw some more of your theology in a post.

    This tactic however makes it impossible to have any meaningful exchange with you about any Biblical topic or text

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Paul clears up all of the confusion about what happens when believers die.

    “For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:” (Philippians 1:23)

    We can adjust other passages to accommodate this or that theory, but here Paul specifically says we are with Christ. Elsewhere Peters says this is Heaven where Jesus reigns at the right hand of God on David's Throne.

    “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.” (Acts 2:30–31)

    As already mentioned before, CONTEXT is what determines the correct and true meaning.

    And as I already mentioned and thought you would do, you did: Refused to answer in detail and instead threw some more of your theology in a post.

    This tactic however makes it impossible to have any meaningful exchange with you about any Biblical topic or text

    Paul's context remains unchanged even though the passage cited can stand on it own.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:
    Paul's context remains unchanged even though the passage cited can stand on it own.

    ???
    Where are your answers to my other questions in regards to your original post?

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Paul's context remains unchanged even though the passage cited can stand on it own.

    ???
    Where are your answers to my other questions in regards to your original post?

    I won't invest the time because Paul solves the riddle for us, saying believers are with the Lord upon death.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Where are your answers to my other questions in regards to your original post?

    I won't invest the time because Paul solves the riddle for us, saying believers are with the Lord upon death.

    Well ... I trust you have made it sufficiently clear that it's not worth for anyone to invest any time in replying to your posts.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,209

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Where are your answers to my other questions in regards to your original post?

    I won't invest the time because Paul solves the riddle for us, saying believers are with the Lord upon death.

    Well ... I trust you have made it sufficiently clear that it's not worth for anyone to invest any time in replying to your posts.

    This is fine, but lacks reason other than revenge.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,710

    @Dave_L said:
    The bible says Christians go to heaven when they die. And Paul’s says he prefers dying and being with the Lord over living on earth.

    Wolfgang answered Dave with the following:

    @ Wolfgang said: "Careful, careful ... context - both textual and historic - should be observed. Prior to the resurrection becoming reality at the last day of that age, believers did NOT go to heaven when they died but rather are said to have been in Hades (the realm of the dead) from where they were raised and changed with the resurrection on the last day. Only after the coming of the Lord and the resurrection becoming reality, the believers/Christians then living will not go to Hades when they die but will be changed in a moment's time and be received up in the presence of God (heaven).
    "Paul's reference was in connection with his hope of being alive at the time of the coming of the Lord and being changed and received into heaven without first going to Hades".

    If I am misrepresenting his position, I apologize in advance. Regardless, Wolfgang is free and capable of clarifying any misunderstanding. As I reflect, he comes close to what the Bible actually teaches and a composite of texts give support.

    In a discussion with @Bill_Coley on this subject matter, in another thread, I think it's necessary to follow up on this topic here: When a Christian or anyone dies, where does he or she goes (heaven or "hell" [grave]) according to the Bible and some historical teachings over time?

    Let me say at this point, this subject matter is very personal, personal deep and emotionally tied to one's faith. This is why what God said, through Divine Revelation, the Bible in utmost importance. This is view the ultimate authority of all Christian bodies that accept the "inspiration" (God breathe) of the Bible.

    Secondly, one determine if a man (humans) is immortal according to Scripture. That is what is death? Is it a succession of life knowledge in the present world? This could be a thread by itself.

    Death is defined as:

    In Dan 12:2, the Bible defines “and many of those who sleep” literally means “of those sleeping” and refers to the dead. Death is often compared with sleep: 1 Sam 28:15; Jer 51:39,57: Job 3:13; 14:12; Isa 26:19; Pss 13:4; 90:5-6.

    The that needs to be asked and answered: is death the end of existence or transition to another dimension?

    a. What happens at death?
    b. The immortality of the soul and Spiritism.
    c. Sin and death.

    Unbeknown to many, the Bible does supplies answer the despite history, heresies, and denominational dogma. More can be said later. As for now, let the truth speak her truth through inspiration. See what the Bible said about a man at death. Read each text and find a new peace: Eccl 3:19; 9:5-6, 10; Pss 6:5; 30:9; 104:29–30; 146:4.

    How does the belief that death is an unconscious sleep affect how you live in relationship with Jesus each day? In a recent survey, it was found the people expressed that they can live every day to its fullest, not be afraid of death, knows Christ is coming back; it brings joy, gives peace, everything belongs to God and the right understanding the dead are asleep among other things.

    The writers of the Bible speak of the State of Man in Death:

    Job

    • "But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: so man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. ... If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."— Job 14:10-14.

    Psalmist

    • "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."—Psalm 146:3, 4.

    Solomon

    • "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." —Ecclesiastes 9:5.

    Daniel

    • "And at that time shall Michael stand up, . . . and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." —Daniel 12:1, 2.

    Jesus

    • "After that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." — John 11:11-14.

    Paul

    • "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. . . . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." — 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.

    "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."—1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

    The biblical description of death is that of termination or annihilation (Job 7:21; 14:12). When the person dies, nothing remains, as the breath of life returns to God and the body decomposes to the basic elements from which it was formed (Ps 146:4; Eccl 12:7; cf. Gen 2:7; Job 33:4; Eccl 9:5, 6, 10).

    Thirdly, the main point is when one dies, where he or she goes according to the Bible?
    As precious as a loved one is people die. There are disposed of in one of several ways:

    1. Cremation
    2. Burial (land or sea)
    3. Mausoleum
    4. Body to medical-school students practice on cadavers, or
    5. Body-part merchants.

    The general or the most popular way, to dispose of the dead, in many countries (as in Bible times) is a burial. Today in many places casket, cemetery, and interment into the ground. Other countries, cremation is, due to a lack of space. This final place of the body to one earth (burial) can be done with or without a ceremony (formal, short or long).

    Need I say more? Any questions. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @C_M_ said:
    Death is defined as:
    In Dan 12:2, the Bible defines “and many of those who sleep” literally means “of those sleeping” and refers to the dead. Death is often compared with sleep: 1 Sam 28:15; Jer 51:39,57: Job 3:13; 14:12; Isa 26:19; Pss 13:4; 90:5-6.

    The term "sleep" in reference is used in reference to "death" as part of the figure of speech euphemism by which some fact is stated with a less harsh term.

    The literal truth is this: A dead person is DEAD (that is, NOT ALIVE in any way, shape or form); a sleeping person is ALIVE.

    A dead person will live again with the resurrection and change effected with the resurrection and afterwards.

    The that needs to be asked and answered: is death the end of existence or transition to another dimension?

    In the context, you appear to be speaking about "death" as the end of the earthly life, which marks the end of one's earthly existence.

    a. What happens at death?
    b. The immortality of the soul and Spiritism.
    c. Sin and death.

    In order to comment further on these points, one might need additional threads.

    Unbeknown to many, the Bible does supplies answer the despite history, heresies, and denominational dogma. More can be said later. As for now, let the truth speak her truth through inspiration. See what the Bible said about a man at death. Read each text and find a new peace: Eccl 3:19; 9:5-6, 10; Pss 6:5; 30:9; 104:29–30; 146:4.

    One must recognize that these passages address death and state of the dead prior to the resurrection becoming a reality. With the coming of the Lord and resurrection becoming a reality, those believers living at the time and thereafter will be changed (mortality to immortality, corruptible to incorruptible, etc) ... cp 1Co 15.

    How does the belief that death is an unconscious sleep affect how you live in relationship with Jesus each day?

    Death is no unconscious sleep ... such a belief contradicts the meaning of death, in that it makes the dead person to supposedly not be really dead but only sleeping.
    See above for the use of the figure of speech euphemism in this context.
    We should live every day in light of the hope of receiving eternal life in the presence of God ...

    In a recent survey, it was found the people expressed that they can live every day to its fullest, not be afraid of death, knows Christ is coming back; it brings joy, gives peace, everything belongs to God and the right understanding the dead are asleep among other things.

    See above ...

    Thirdly, the main point is when one dies, where he or she goes according to the Bible?

    Prior to the resurrection becoming reality, the dead went to hades, gravedom, the realm of the dead ... With the resurrection becoming reality, the believers in Christ do not go to hades, gravedom, but are changed in a moment and are received up into the presence of God.

    As precious as a loved one is people die. There are disposed of in one of several ways:
    1. Cremation
    2. Burial (land or sea)
    3. Mausoleum
    4. Body to medical-school students practice on cadavers, or
    5. Body-part merchants.

    One should note that this concerns only the earthly body of a person who died.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,710

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Death is defined as:
    In Dan 12:2, the Bible defines “and many of those who sleep” literally means “of those sleeping” and refers to the dead. Death is often compared with sleep: 1 Sam 28:15; Jer 51:39,57: Job 3:13; 14:12; Isa 26:19; Pss 13:4; 90:5-6.

    The term "sleep" in reference is used in reference to "death" as part of the figure of speech euphemism by which some fact is stated with a less harsh term.
    The literal truth is this: A dead person is DEAD (that is, NOT ALIVE in any way, shape or form); a sleeping person is ALIVE.
    A dead person will live again with the resurrection and change effected with the resurrection and afterwards.

    Wolfgang,
    Thanks for sharing your understanding of death. After posting and before reading this, I was made aware that care should be taken in using "sleep" to define death. Of course, Jesus can use it, as Creator of all things. I hope to share my findings of using "sleep" to describe death. It could be misleading as you alluded too.

    Prior to the resurrection becoming reality, the dead went to hades, gravedom, the realm of the dead ... With the resurrection becoming reality, the believers in Christ do not go to hades, gravedom, but are changed in a moment and are received up into the presence of God.

    A little more unpacking would be helpful. "The realm of the dead ...? What is this? Where is this? How long is this? What about those who died without Christ, where do they go? Would all people be changed?

    Keep studying. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    The term "sleep" is used in reference to "death" as part of the figure of speech euphemism by which some fact is stated with a less harsh term.
    The literal truth is this: A dead person is DEAD (that is, NOT ALIVE in any way, shape or form); a sleeping person is ALIVE.
    A dead person will live again with the resurrection and change effected with the resurrection and afterwards.

    Wolfgang,
    Thanks for sharing your understanding of death. After posting and before reading this, I was made aware that care should be taken in using "sleep" to define death.

    The term "sleep" does not define death, in other words, death is not a kind of sleep. That would only be the case if the word "sleep" were used in its literal meaning rather than in a figure of speech. However, dead people are not sleeping in a literal sense, because "sleeping" in its literal sense refers to a living being/person who will awake after a short time of rest and continue in their current life. Such is not the case with a dead person.

    Of course, Jesus can use it, as Creator of all things. I hope to share my findings of using "sleep" to describe death. It could be misleading as you alluded too.

    I would say Jesus used the rather common figure of speech euphemism "sleep" when speaking of Lazarus who had died.
    There is no need to falsely make Jesus the "Creator of all things" because of the misunderstanding of the word "sleep" in this context ... as if Jesus as Creator could use the term but other people could not .... eh, even we today use this figure euphemism when speaking of a dead person as having "fallen asleep"

    Prior to the resurrection becoming reality, the dead went to hades, gravedom, the realm of the dead ... With the resurrection becoming reality, the believers in Christ do not go to hades, gravedom, but are changed in a moment and are received up into the presence of God.

    A little more unpacking would be helpful. "The realm of the dead ...? What is this? Where is this? How long is this?

    It is a descriptive term to speak of the realm where all the dead prior to the resurrection are said to be and from where they are raised in the resurrection ...

    What about those who died without Christ, where do they go?

    Prior to the resurrection becoming reality with the Lord's coming on the last day of the OT Age All dead went to hades/gravedom, realm of the dead ... from where they are resurrected ... for the righteous a resurrection / change to life eternal, for the unrighteous a resurrection to judgment and second death.
    From that time when the resurrection became reality, the righteous living then and afterwards are in a moment changed to have eternal life in the presence of God; those without Christ already have been judged and are lost (eternal death, no life in the presence of God)

    Would all people be changed?

    The righteous are changed to incorruptible, immortal, spiritual body, etc ... unrighteous are under condemnation and are lost

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,710

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:

    A little more unpacking would be helpful. "The realm of the dead ...? What is this? Where is this? How long is this?

    It is a descriptive term to speak of the realm where all the dead prior to the resurrection are said to be and from where they are raised in the resurrection ...

    Where is this realm? Is it the grave? Is a part of the dead is elsewhere? Are the dead in heaven already? "Do we really understand death"? CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @C_M_ said:

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:
    A little more unpacking would be helpful. "The realm of the dead ...? What is this? Where is this? How long is this?

    It is a descriptive term to speak of the realm where all the dead prior to the resurrection are said to be and from where they are raised in the resurrection ...

    Where is this realm?

    As far as I understand, it is not a geographical place anywhere.

    Is it the grave?

    The grave is usually spoken of as a place where a dead person's body is buried.

    Is a part of the dead is elsewhere?

    What are you actually asking?

    Are the dead in heaven already?

    "heaven", the place of the presence of God, is reserved for those who believe in God and His Messiah. Prior to the resurrection, no believer who died was in heaven, but all dead were in hades awaiting the resurrection on the last day of the then age. WIth the resurrection and after the end of that age, dead believers of previous times were resurrected and received up into heavenly glory, then and afterwards living believers are changed and received up into heavenly glory in a moment (they do not go to hades first, seeing that hades has been done away with.

    "Do we really understand death"? CM

    We can really understand death to the degree God has revealed information concerning it in Scripture.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 2,710
    edited January 6

    @Wolfgang said:

    @C_M_ said:

    The grave is usually spoken of as a place where a dead person's body is buried.

    Is a part of the dead is elsewhere?

    What are you actually asking?

    I am emphatically asking can one "part" of the person survives death to the exclusion of other "parts"? Can it be verified? Is it biblical? Is this the belief of many, if not, most Christian?

    Are the dead in heaven already?

    "heaven", the place of the presence of God, is reserved for those who believe in God and His Messiah. Prior to the resurrection, no believer who died was in heaven, but all dead were in hades awaiting the resurrection on the last day of the then age. WIth the resurrection and after the end of that age, dead believers of previous times were resurrected and received up into heavenly glory, then and afterwards living believers are changed and received up into heavenly glory in a moment (they do not go to hades first, seeing that hades has been done away with.

    Is not the "righteous dead" will be raised at the second coming of Christ?

    "Do we really understand death"? CM

    We can really understand death to the degree God has revealed information concerning it in Scripture.

    Could this be true for many other things of God?

    • e.g. the Godhead, the Trinity, The Holy Spirit, creation, the incarnation, heaven, and the resurrection, righteous living translation at the Second coming, etc.? In light of the following texts:

    • "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
      Nor have entered into the heart of man
      The things which God has prepared for those who love Him" (1 Co 2:9 NKJV)

    • The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut 29:29 NKJV).

    • "Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Co 15:51–54 NKJV).

    As promised, I want to clarify that sleep is not an essential description of death, and on the lips of Jesus it only highlights the reality—and the imminence—of the resurrection (cf. John 11:23–25 NKJV). To correct my and others in the future, it's not appropriate to use sleep to understand the nature of death and by extension the condition in death or the ontological state of the dead. Neither the metaphor itself nor its use by Jesus allows such a procedure. Death is not sleep. One may resemble the other, but they are in fact two different things. As Bruce Reichenbach insists:

    • the metaphor ‘sleep’. . . does not describe the ontological state of the dead, but rather refers to the possibility of the deceased: that though they now no longer exist, by the power of God they can be recreated to live again.”

    Keep studying. CM

    Source:

    -- Bruce Reichenbach, Is Man the Phoenix? A Study of Immortality (Grand Rapids: Christian University Press, 1978), 185.

    Post edited by C_M_ on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,415

    @C_M_ said:

    I am emphatically asking can one "part" of the person survives death to the exclusion of other "parts"? Can it be verified? Is it biblical? Is this the belief of many, if not, most Christian?

    As far as I understand, Scripture does not make such distinctions between certain parts of a person dying and other parts of a person remaining alive ... which would actually then lead to a person not being really dead.
    I don't think such an idea can be verified from Scripture.
    I consider such "partial death / partial life" as not biblical.
    I don't know what many, if not most Christians believe ... what they believe most likely depends on what they have been taught, and what has been taught is not guaranteed to be biblical truth, but may also be false doctrine.

    Are the dead in heaven already?

    "heaven", the place of the presence of God, is reserved for those who believe in God and His Messiah. Prior to the resurrection, no believer who died was in heaven, but all dead were in hades awaiting the resurrection on the last day of the then age. WIth the resurrection and after the end of that age, dead believers of previous times were resurrected and received up into heavenly glory, then and afterwards living believers are changed and received up into heavenly glory in a moment (they do not go to hades first, seeing that hades has been done away with.

    Is not the "righteous dead" will be raised at the second coming of Christ?

    The resurrection of all who have died prior to the coming of the Lord happened with the coming of the Lord on the last day of that age. (cp. my earlier post)

    We can really understand death to the degree God has revealed information concerning it in Scripture.


    Could this be true for many other things of God?

    • e.g. the Godhead, the Trinity, The Holy Spirit, creation, the incarnation, heaven, and the resurrection, righteous living translation at the Second coming, etc.? In light of the following texts:

    This not only could be true, but I would say that it definitely is true

    As promised, I want to clarify that sleep is not an essential description of death, and on the lips of Jesus it only highlights the reality—and the imminence—of the resurrection (cf. John 11:23–25).

    The term "sleep" is used regarding "death" not only in situations where an imminent resurrection from the dead is in view .... Furthermore, please note that Lazarus was NOT resurrected from the dead in the sense of the resurrection on the last day (that is, raised to eternal life), rather he was raised to a continuation of his earthly natural life.

    To correct my and others in the future, it's not appropriate to use sleep to understand the nature of death and by extension the condition in death or the ontological state of the dead. Neither the metaphor itself nor its use by Jesus allows such a procedure. Death is not sleep. One may resemble the other, but they are in fact two different things.

    Surely, death is not sleep ... and therefore I don't think that the use of the term "sleep" in reference to "death" is the figure of speech metaphor, but rather the figure of speech euphemism.

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