Do You Have to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Comments
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?You are almost here. Stop thinking materialistically and trying to understand at that level. One God, three entities, the physical term person tries to represent but falls short of.
Ok, so I change from "persons" to your term "entities" ... it just doesn't change a thing. Why are there only three ENTITIES in your God? Why are the other ENTITIES not being considered and what happened to these "Godhead-entities" ??
You can search scripture but only 3 (entities/persons/hypostasis') makeup the One God.
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@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
Ok, so I change from "persons" to your term "entities" ... it just doesn't change a thing. Why are there only three ENTITIES in your God? Why are the other ENTITIES not being considered and what happened to these "Godhead-entities" ?You can search scripture but only 3 (entities/persons/hypostasis') makeup the One God.
Well, sorry, Dave_L .... I already mentioned a few others in my post!
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
Ok, so I change from "persons" to your term "entities" ... it just doesn't change a thing. Why are there only three ENTITIES in your God? Why are the other ENTITIES not being considered and what happened to these "Godhead-entities" ?You can search scripture but only 3 (entities/persons/hypostasis') makeup the One God.
Well, sorry, Dave_L .... I already mentioned a few others in my post!
But only three, Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit, with God's attributes.
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@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
Ok, so I change from "persons" to your term "entities" ... it just doesn't change a thing. Why are there only three ENTITIES in your God? Why are the other ENTITIES not being considered and what happened to these "Godhead-entities" ?You can search scripture but only 3 (entities/persons/hypostasis') makeup the One God.
Well, sorry, Dave_L .... I already mentioned a few others in my post!
But only three, Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit, with God's attributes.
WOW ... so you think the Creator does not have God's attributes? How about the Almighty, also without God's attributes?
Very funny is that you think that the Son has God's attributes ... when it is rather plain and clear that he died and yet one of God's attributes is immortality ... -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
Ok, so I change from "persons" to your term "entities" ... it just doesn't change a thing. Why are there only three ENTITIES in your God? Why are the other ENTITIES not being considered and what happened to these "Godhead-entities" ?You can search scripture but only 3 (entities/persons/hypostasis') makeup the One God.
Well, sorry, Dave_L .... I already mentioned a few others in my post!
But only three, Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit, with God's attributes.
WOW ... so you think the Creator does not have God's attributes? How about the Almighty, also without God's attributes?
Very funny is that you think that the Son has God's attributes ... when it is rather plain and clear that he died and yet one of God's attributes is immortality ...You are still thinking materialistically. “So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination.” (Acts 17:29)
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@Dave_L said:
But only three, Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit, with God's attributes.
WOW ... so you think the Creator does not have God's attributes? How about the Almighty, also without God's attributes?
Very funny is that you think that the Son has God's attributes ... when it is rather plain and clear that he died and yet one of God's attributes is immortality ...You are still thinking materialistically.
So you once again refuse to address what has been the point being discussed and make some false claim about me as a person ...
Dave_L, WHY do you not have the honesty to admit that your previous arguments were shown to be plain false and in error?? WHY attack the messenger just because you obviously do not like the message??“So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination.” (Acts 17:29)
This verse of scripture has nothing to do with what we were discussing ... and by throwing it in you display another of your typical traits of evading points made by others which question your points.
When points you made are challenged and/or questioned, why do you then not engage directly those points given by others and provide more scripture evidence as to why that other point is in correct, etc.? Instead, you throw in unrelated verses and make attacks on the person ... WHY?
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
But only three, Father, Son/Word, and Holy Spirit, with God's attributes.
WOW ... so you think the Creator does not have God's attributes? How about the Almighty, also without God's attributes?
Very funny is that you think that the Son has God's attributes ... when it is rather plain and clear that he died and yet one of God's attributes is immortality ...You are still thinking materialistically.
So you once again refuse to address what has been the point being discussed and make some false claim about me as a person ...
Dave_L, WHY do you not have the honesty to admit that your previous arguments were shown to be plain false and in error?? WHY attack the messenger just because you obviously do not like the message??“So since we are God’s offspring, we should not think the deity is like gold or silver or stone, an image made by human skill and imagination.” (Acts 17:29)
This verse of scripture has nothing to do with what we were discussing ... and by throwing it in you display another of your typical traits of evading points made by others which question your points.
When points you made are challenged and/or questioned, why do you then not engage directly those points given by others and provide more scripture evidence as to why that other point is in correct, etc.? Instead, you throw in unrelated verses and make attacks on the person ... WHY?
Try think about it this way. Jesus prays that the church (billions of people) would be one, as he and the Father are one. In marriage the husband and wife are one. God (one spiritual body) with three consciousness' agreeing in one.
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@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
When points you made are challenged and/or questioned, why do you then not engage directly those points given by others and provide more scripture evidence as to why that other point is in correct, etc.? Instead, you throw in unrelated verses and make attacks on the person ... WHY?Try think about it this way. Jesus prays that the church (billions of people) would be one, as he and the Father are one.
Ok ... so then, IF indeed Jesus=God because of him "being one with the Father", the church then as being one with the Father=God??
In marriage the husband and wife are one.
They are one what?? One human? How and in what regard are husband and wife one?
God (one spiritual body) with three consciousness' agreeing in one.
Well, with "agreeing" you provide the key to a proper understanding of such "are one" passages above ... BUT, the truth that the man Jesus lived in agreement with God, His Father, did NOT make him to actually be God, his Father (nor did it make him "God, the {something else}".
When a number of people "agree" and "are in agreement", it does NOT mean they become something else, they remain the same number of people.
When believers live in obedience to God's will, they are doing what Jesus did ... obey God, and are then "one with God" ... BUT they are not God. -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
When points you made are challenged and/or questioned, why do you then not engage directly those points given by others and provide more scripture evidence as to why that other point is in correct, etc.? Instead, you throw in unrelated verses and make attacks on the person ... WHY?Try think about it this way. Jesus prays that the church (billions of people) would be one, as he and the Father are one.
Ok ... so then, IF indeed Jesus=God because of him "being one with the Father", the church then as being one with the Father=God??
In marriage the husband and wife are one.
They are one what?? One human? How and in what regard are husband and wife one?
God (one spiritual body) with three consciousness' agreeing in one.
Well, with "agreeing" you provide the key to a proper understanding of such "are one" passages above ... BUT, the truth that the man Jesus lived in agreement with God, His Father, did NOT make him to actually be God, his Father (nor did it make him "God, the {something else}".
When a number of people "agree" and "are in agreement", it does NOT mean they become something else, they remain the same number of people.
When believers live in obedience to God's will, they are doing what Jesus did ... obey God, and are then "one with God" ... BUT they are not God.Only God is without beginning or end. And only three entities have this attribute. Namely the Father, Son/word, and Holy Spirit. So in this sense the three are One. But the New Birth gives us eternal life. Eternal life is also without beginning or end. So there was never a time when we were not part of God's thoughts or plans. So in this sense we are included in God.
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@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?Sir,
We must accept the revealed Word of God (Bible). What God self-disclosed through whatever means, however long, accept it! our pea-brain can comprehend but so much of Divinity, in general, and at one time. Why is it seems that if the Inspired Word of God doesn't make sense in Wolfgang's head a thing is not true or irrational?
God is, what he said He is, and much more. If He chooses to limit Himself (incarnate) or manifest Himself in three distinct Beings, that is His right and power to do so. God doesn't need your and anyone permission to do so. God is not a slave to Himself or His own powers. God can do as he pleases. However, we have the assurance He will be fair, just, faithful, gracious, merciful in all His doings and dealings. In short, "we can trust God, where we can't trace Him"!
Wolfgang, it takes an equal amount of faith to believe what you hold dear as truth and for the Trinitarians in their position. Could it be, Sir, a chance, that you may be wrong? Could it be a chance, that the Trinitarians are right? You see, Mr. Wolfgang, "...without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). CM
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@C_M_ said:
We must accept the revealed Word of God (Bible).
I agree ... the problem is: The Holy Trinity "God in 3 persons" is not revealed in the Bible.
What God self-disclosed through whatever means, however long, accept it!
I endeavor to do so ...
Why is it seems that if the Inspired Word of God doesn't make sense in Wolfgang's head a thing is not true or irrational?
The inspired Word of God makes perfect sense in my head ... what doesn't make sense is the man made fantasy "Holy Trinity God".
God is, what he said He is, and much more.
I agree ...
If He chooses to limit Himself (incarnate) or manifest Himself in three distinct Beings, that is His right and power to do so.
The problem is, God has not limited Himself ...
God doesn't need your and anyone permission to do so.
Trinitarians are "defining God" and indoctrinate millions of people with a view of God that is not Biblical.
Wolfgang, it takes an equal amount of faith to believe what you hold dear as truth and for the Trinitarians in their position.
The point is not how much believing / faith it takes ... the BIG difference is in WHAT is believed or in WHAT one puts one's trust. Is it something that flat out contradicts the Bible (=> the Trinity dogma) or is it what Scripture does plainly teach??
Could it be, Sir, a chance, that you may be wrong?
There is always a possibility that I may be wrong ... just as there is the same possibility for any Trinity believer may be wrong.
Could it be a chance, that the Trinitarians are right?
Having been on both sides, it is rather clear to me from my own experience that there is no chance that Trinitarians are right in their teaching of a "Trinity Godhead / 3 Persons Godhead", etc ... As a matter of fact, the doctrine about THREE are each God is nothing else but "TRITHEISM (3 Gods), no matter how loud or bold or often they add their claim that "despite 3 God-persons, they are only One God". Such claim does NOT change that in effect and in truth they are propagating 3 Gods with their teaching.
You see, Mr. Wolfgang, "...without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). CM
C_M,
Indeed ... Do you realize that it speaks of "God" as a HE (single person) ?? Even in the version you quoted it does not speak of "God" as a "THEY".Now, after having replied in detail to the points you raised, why did you not simply answer the straight forward simple questions I asked above:
@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?I would certainly appreciate if you just straight forwardly answered the questions !!
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@Wolfgang said:
Now, after having replied in detail to the points you raised, why did you not simply answer the straight forward simple questions I asked above:
@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?I would certainly appreciate if you just straight forwardly answered the questions !!
Could it be that my answer is in my questions? CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Wolfgang said:
Now, after having replied in detail to the points you raised, why did you not simply answer the straight forward simple questions I asked above:
@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?I would certainly appreciate if you just straight forwardly answered the questions !!
Could it be that my answer is in my questions? CM
No ... you did not even ask any questions!
I asked you those very simple questions and even repeated them above ... so, please, answer them or tell us that you refuse to answer, or that you have no answer, or whatever is actually the case.
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Are these not questions:
- Why is it seems that if the Inspired Word of God doesn't make sense in Wolfgang's head a thing is not true or [rational] irrational?
- Could it be, Sir, a chance, that you may be wrong?
- Could it be a chance, that the Trinitarians are right?
It's not the ones you may prefer, but these are questions. CM
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@C_M_ said:
Are these not questions:
- Why is it seems that if the Inspired Word of God doesn't make sense in Wolfgang's head a thing is not true or [rational] irrational?
- Could it be, Sir, a chance, that you may be wrong?
- Could it be a chance, that the Trinitarians are right?
I provided answers to these already ... see https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/6623/#Comment_6623
And these questions did NOT answer to the very simple questions you had been asked, instead they display your manner of evading answers.
It's not the ones you may prefer, but these are questions. CM
See above ... I answered your questions in this post
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