Jesus, The Christ, Is God (Without Human-reasoning or Approval)

C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

The Word of God (Bible) is true and the ultimate authority. Human reasoning can never satisfy or comprehend the things of God alone. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God has revealed himself. A man has the option and freedom to accept or reject the revelations. It's just that simple. God has given enough to accept, believe and to start the spiritual journey of Christian Living. What God is, exceeds man's ability to fully comprehend. The key is revelation and faith.

God's existence, love, ability, power, and manifestations are not limited to man's approval or comprehension. Man is the created and not the Creator. Man is lower than the angels. Let us not lose sight of our place and abilities. God can become a man, but man can NEVER become God. So, let us choose to believe The Almighty, who "is", "was" and "is to come"; and stop carrying the Devil's water of doubt and unbelief.

I invite all at CD to join me in giving "proof" (implied and explicit) from the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) that Jesus is God. What say ye? CM

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Comments

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,271

    @C_M_ said:
    The Word of God (Bible) is true and the ultimate authority. Human reasoning can never satisfy or comprehend the things of God alone. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God has revealed himself. A man has the option and freedom to accept or reject the revelations. It's just that simple. God has given enough to accept, believe and to start the spiritual journey of Christian Living. What God is, exceeds man's ability to fully comprehend. The key is revelation and faith.

    God's existence, love, ability, power, and manifestations are not limited to man's approval or comprehension. Man is the created and not the Creator. Man is lower than the angels. Let us not lose sight of our place and abilities. God can become a man, but man can NEVER become God. So, let us choose to believe The Almighty, who "is", "was" and "is to come"; and stop carrying the Devil's water of doubt and unbelief.

    I invite all at CD to join me in giving "proof" (implied and explicit) from the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) that Jesus is God. What say ye? CM

    John Chapter 1

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,271

    Actually, the whole book of John.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    I would submit this for starters.

    “as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) (NET)

    "The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798.

    Sharp pointed out that in the construction article-noun-καί-noun (where καί [kai] = “and”), when two nouns are singular, personal, and common (i.e., not proper names), they always had the same referent. Illustrations such as “the friend and brother,” “the God and Father,” etc. abound in the NT to prove Sharp’s point. The only issue is whether terms such as “God” and “Savior” could be considered common nouns as opposed to proper names.

    Sharp and others who followed (such as T. F. Middleton in his masterful The Doctrine of the Greek Article) demonstrated that a proper name in Greek was one that could not be pluralized. Since both “God” (θεός, theos) and “savior” (σωτήρ, sōtēr) were occasionally found in the plural, they did not constitute proper names, and hence, do fit Sharp’s rule.

    Although there have been 200 years of attempts to dislodge Sharp’s rule, all attempts have been futile. Sharp’s rule stands vindicated after all the dust has settled. For more information on Sharp’s rule see ExSyn 270–78, esp. 276. See also 2 Pet 1:1 and Jude 4.

    Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    Jesus is God-- Proof!

    1. He Is Worshiped by the Angels

    Jesus receives worship from the angels upon his entry into the heavenly world (Heb. 1:6). The fact that the angels are commanded by God to worship Jesus signifies that Jesus himself is God.

    The text appears to be taken from Deut 32:43 LXX, or less likely, Ps 96:7 LXX. The uncertainty of the source of the citation stems from the fact that the quotation in Hebrews corresponds to no known extant version.

    The author of Hebrews now, however, applies the verse to Jesus; the angels are urged to worship the Son. Attridge suggests that the removal of the quotation from its original context made the (Gk.) "auto" ambiguous, allowing the author to apply the verse to Jesus.

    SOURCE:

    -- Attridge, Harold W. The Epistle to the Hebrews: A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews. Hermeneia – A Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible. Edited by Helmut Koester. Philadelphia: Fortress, 1989., p 57

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    @Dave_L said:
    I would submit this for starters.

    “as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) (NET)

    "The terms “God and Savior” both refer to the same person, Jesus Christ. This is one of the clearest statements in the NT concerning the deity of Christ. The construction in Greek is known as the Granville Sharp rule, named after the English philanthropist-linguist who first clearly articulated the rule in 1798...

    Thanks, Dave, Great find!

    @reformed said:

    John Chapter 1

    @reformed said:
    Actually, the whole book of John.

    Thanks, Reformed, for your contributions.

    There are more. Keep them coming. Let's narrow them to specific text or passages if possible. Remember, the Greek and Hebrew languages have much to add that English translation may not bring out with clarity. CM

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,489

    @C_M_ said:
    The Word of God (Bible) is true and the ultimate authority. Human reasoning can never satisfy or comprehend the things of God alone. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God has revealed himself. A man has the option and freedom to accept or reject the revelations. It's just that simple. God has given enough to accept, believe and to start the spiritual journey of Christian Living. What God is, exceeds man's ability to fully comprehend. The key is revelation and faith.

    God's existence, love, ability, power, and manifestations are not limited to man's approval or comprehension. Man is the created and not the Creator. Man is lower than the angels. Let us not lose sight of our place and abilities. God can become a man, but man can NEVER become God. So, let us choose to believe The Almighty, who "is", "was" and "is to come"; and stop carrying the Devil's water of doubt and unbelief.

    I invite all at CD to join me in giving "proof" (implied and explicit) from the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) that Jesus is God. What say ye? CM

    More from me to come later, CM, but for this moment I will note that those of us who believe the Bible teaches that Jesus was not God do not believe we carry "the Devil's water of doubt and unbelief."

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,271

    @Bill_Coley said:

    @C_M_ said:
    The Word of God (Bible) is true and the ultimate authority. Human reasoning can never satisfy or comprehend the things of God alone. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God has revealed himself. A man has the option and freedom to accept or reject the revelations. It's just that simple. God has given enough to accept, believe and to start the spiritual journey of Christian Living. What God is, exceeds man's ability to fully comprehend. The key is revelation and faith.

    God's existence, love, ability, power, and manifestations are not limited to man's approval or comprehension. Man is the created and not the Creator. Man is lower than the angels. Let us not lose sight of our place and abilities. God can become a man, but man can NEVER become God. So, let us choose to believe The Almighty, who "is", "was" and "is to come"; and stop carrying the Devil's water of doubt and unbelief.

    I invite all at CD to join me in giving "proof" (implied and explicit) from the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) that Jesus is God. What say ye? CM

    More from me to come later, CM, but for this moment I will note that those of us who believe the Bible teaches that Jesus was not God do not believe we carry "the Devil's water of doubt and unbelief."

    Most deceived people don't.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    I haven't seen a scripture which teaches that a human being can be the true God, have you?
    I also haven't seen a scripture which teaches that God is or can change into a human being, have you?

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,489

    @reformed said:

    Most deceived people don't.

    Reformed, your reply draws attention to a fundamental challenge we Christians face when we disagree with each other on significant theological matters. Do we explore our disagreements as differences of opinion, or as products of deception.

    My experience has been - and I hope you'll share your experience - such explorations of disagreements are much more productive and welcoming when each party to them assumes the other has come to his or her conclusions authentically, without the influence of deception. Such an assumption makes it easier for explorations to focus on issues rather than persons or personalities.

    As I say, I hope you'll share your experience.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Here are a couple of older manuscript translations based on Kurios in the LXX = God. So Kurios in the NT would also = God. Also note the Granville Sharp rule in translation.

    "Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." (Jude 1:5) (ESV)

    “Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5) (NET)

    The reading Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, “Lord”) or θεός (theos, “God”) for Ἰησοῦς (though 𝔓72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [theos Christos, “God Christ“] for Ἰησοῦς).

    In addition to the evidence supplied in NA27 for this reading, note also {88 322 323 424c 665 915 2298 eth Cyr Hier Bede}. As difficult as the reading Ἰησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.

    The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp’s rule (see note on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.

    Biblical Studies Press. (2005). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    In some passages, modern versions make a clearer statement about the divinity of Jesus than the KJV. This is especially true in Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 where they adhere to Granville Sharp’s rule. Sharp’s rule, simply stated is,

    When two common, singular nouns in the same case are connected by “kai” (and) and there is an article in front of the first noun only, both nouns refer to the same person or thing.

    Compare Titus 2:13 in the KJV and the RSV:

    • Looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (KJV).

    • Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (RSV).

    The wording of the KJV presents two Gods:

    • (1) “the great God” and
    • (2) “our Saviour Jesus Christ.”

    The RSV presents only one, “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

    The RSV is following Sharp’s rule of Greek grammar and thus renders a clearer statement on the deity of Jesus.

    This difference can be seen again in 2 Peter 1:1:

    • Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (KJV).

    • Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ (RSV).

    The RSV **is clear that Jesus is both God and Saviour, while this important truth is obscured in the KJV. Is there then a conspiracy on the part of the men who produced the KJV to minimize the divinity of Jesus? No. We have looked at only two examples where **modern versions are clearer on Jesus’ deity than the KJV. There are others as well.

    Truth found truth shared. CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005

    Dave,
    Here is another example, John 1:18.

    • The KJV reads, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    • The NASB read, “only begotten God.”

    • The NIV, “but God the One and Only” instead of “only begotten Son.”

    The phrase, “only begotten Son,” appears in John 3:16, 18 where the theological context is the gift of God’s Son to the fallen human race. The theological context of the opening to John’s gospel, of which 1:18 is the summary, is the deity of Jesus, and “only begotten God” fits this context better than “only begotten Son.” Without a doubt, the modern versions make a stronger statement about Jesus’ deity than the KJV, especially the NIV where Jesus is called God.

    It appears that some KJV advocates criticize “only begotten God” because they do not understand what the phrase “only begotten” conveys. For example, one critic of modern versions says, “How can anyone claim that one that is begotten is at the same time essential God, equal in every respect to God the Father, and to God the Holy Spirit? This makes Christ to be a created Being” This writer is thinking of “only begotten” in terms of origin. What is not understood is that “only begotten” conveys the idea of uniqueness or priority.

    This concept is clearly illustrated in Hebrews 11:17 where Isaac is called Abraham’s “only begotten son.” Actually Isaac was not Abraham’s only begotten son for he had several sons, one of whom was Ishmael. But Isaac had priority. He had the birthright, and the covenant promises passed from Abraham through him to Jacob, thus he was the “only begotten son.”

    Because “only begotten Son” is used to describe Jesus’ relationship with the human race in John 3:16, 18, it is easy to see how a scribe could have harmonized John 1:18 with His unique position as Son. In the introduction to John’s gospel, Jesus is proclaimed as God, as the Creator, and in summarizing his introductory comments in 1:18, John proclaims Jesus’ priority, His uniqueness, His divinity— “the only begotten God.” What say ye? CM

    # SOURCE:

    -- Jay P. Green, Sr., The King James Only Controversy, 258.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @C_M_ said:
    Dave,
    Here is another example, John 1:18.

    • The KJV reads, “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    • The NASB read, “only begotten God.”

    • The NIV, “but God the One and Only” instead of “only begotten Son.”

    The phrase, “only begotten Son,” appears in John 3:16, 18 where the theological context is the gift of God’s Son to the fallen human race. The theological context of the opening to John’s gospel, of which 1:18 is the summary, is the deity of Jesus, and “only begotten God” fits this context better than “only begotten Son.” Without a doubt, the modern versions make a stronger statement about Jesus’ deity than the KJV, especially the NIV where Jesus is called God.

    It appears that some KJV advocates criticize “only begotten God” because they do not understand what the phrase “only begotten” conveys. For example, one critic of modern versions says, “How can anyone claim that one that is begotten is at the same time essential God, equal in every respect to God the Father, and to God the Holy Spirit? This makes Christ to be a created Being” This writer is thinking of “only begotten” in terms of origin. What is not understood is that “only begotten” conveys the idea of uniqueness or priority.

    This concept is clearly illustrated in Hebrews 11:17 where Isaac is called Abraham’s “only begotten son.” Actually Isaac was not Abraham’s only begotten son for he had several sons, one of whom was Ishmael. But Isaac had priority. He had the birthright, and the covenant promises passed from Abraham through him to Jacob, thus he was the “only begotten son.”

    Because “only begotten Son” is used to describe Jesus’ relationship with the human race in John 3:16, 18, it is easy to see how a scribe could have harmonized John 1:18 with His unique position as Son. In the introduction to John’s gospel, Jesus is proclaimed as God, as the Creator, and in summarizing his introductory comments in 1:18, John proclaims Jesus’ priority, His uniqueness, His divinity— “the only begotten God.” What say ye? CM

    # SOURCE:

    -- Jay P. Green, Sr., The King James Only Controversy, 258.

    I think once people understand Christ is God as far as his person or what we call spirit is concerned. And he has a fully divine set of attributes (nature), and a fully human nature (mind, or flesh and body without sin), it is easy to understand these types of passages.

    Chalcedonian Creed

    We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;

    truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;

    consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;

    in all things like unto us, without sin;

    begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    Very funny, folks ..... in most of the above there is a whole lot of human reasoning displayed in order to make Jesus to be God. And I thought that the topic was about "without human reasoning or approval"

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Wolfgang said:
    Very funny, folks ..... in most of the above there is a whole lot of human reasoning displayed in order to make Jesus to be God. And I thought that the topic was about "without human reasoning or approval"

    I'm not sharing the commonly recognized evidence for Christ's deity. It is all over the Internet for the curious. But who can forgive sins but God?

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    @Dave_L said:
    I'm not sharing the commonly recognized evidence for Christ's deity. It is all over the Internet for the curious. But who can forgive sins but God?

    Mk 2,10-11 (KJV)
    10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
    11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

    Do you rather want to join Jesus' accusers who had the following to say about who can forgive sins but God?

    Mk 2,6-7 (KJV)
    6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
    7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    Not only God can forgive sins, but also the Son of man ... and that man did because authority and power to do so had been given to him by God.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:
    I'm not sharing the commonly recognized evidence for Christ's deity. It is all over the Internet for the curious. But who can forgive sins but God?

    Mk 2,10-11 (KJV)
    10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
    11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

    Do you rather want to join Jesus' accusers who had the following to say about who can forgive sins but God?

    Mk 2,6-7 (KJV)
    6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
    7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    Not only God can forgive sins, but also the Son of man ... and that man did because authority and power to do so had been given to him by God.

    This is because Jesus is God. Only he can forgive sins. Raise the dead, heal amputees, create eyes from clay and spit. In-dwell the hearts of believers. How creepy would it be if Jesus was merely a man who did this?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,005
    edited May 2018

    See my thread on "Son of Man" -- Who is This Being? Is He Real or a Symbol? CM

    Post edited by C_M_ on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Not only God can forgive sins, but also the Son of man ... and that man did because authority and power to do so had been given to him by God.

    This is because Jesus is God.

    Says Dave_L ... Jesus said differently in the passages quoted from Mk 2.

    Only he can forgive sins. Raise the dead,

    Perhaps Peter then also was God ... ??

    Apg 9,36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
    Apg 9,37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid [her] in an upper chamber.
    Apg 9,38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring [him] that he would not delay to come to them.
    Apg 9,39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
    Apg 9,40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

    heal amputees, create eyes from clay and spit. In-dwell the hearts of believers. How creepy would it be if Jesus was merely a man who did this?

    How creepy was it that Peter raised Dorcas from the dead?

    How creepy was Elisha raising a child from the dead?

    2Ki 4,32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, [and] laid upon his bed.
    2Ki 4,33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
    2Ki 4,34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
    2Ki 4,35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Not only God can forgive sins, but also the Son of man ... and that man did because authority and power to do so had been given to him by God.

    This is because Jesus is God.

    Says Dave_L ... Jesus said differently in the passages quoted from Mk 2.

    Only he can forgive sins. Raise the dead,

    Perhaps Peter then also was God ... ??

    Apg 9,36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
    Apg 9,37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid [her] in an upper chamber.
    Apg 9,38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring [him] that he would not delay to come to them.
    Apg 9,39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
    Apg 9,40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

    heal amputees, create eyes from clay and spit. In-dwell the hearts of believers. How creepy would it be if Jesus was merely a man who did this?

    How creepy was it that Peter raised Dorcas from the dead?

    How creepy was Elisha raising a child from the dead?

    2Ki 4,32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, [and] laid upon his bed.
    2Ki 4,33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
    2Ki 4,34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
    2Ki 4,35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

    You're missing the point. If Jesus is just a man, and his spirit posses each follower, we have some seriously creepy stuff going on here.

    But, no man can do what Jesus did. Only God can fill those sandals.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    @Dave_L said:
    You're missing the point.

    I do't think I do ... seems more that someone else is missing - or more accurately - purposely ignoring the points I mentioned with the records from Acts 9 and 2Ki 4.

    If Jesus is just a man, and his spirit posses each follower, we have some seriously creepy stuff going on here.

    Why? what is so creepy about Jesus being "the last ADAM" (and not, a God turned into a man, a hybrid man or hybrid God, etc) ??

    But, no man can do what Jesus did. Only God can fill those sandals.

    As far as miracles and forgiving sins are concerned, I mentioned Acts 9 where we have the record of Peter raising someone from the dead, and 2Ki 4 with the record of Elisha raising a dead person; and in addition the record in Mk 2 where Jesus himself explains that he as a human being had been given the power and authority to forgive sins on earth.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Jesus gave Peter and the rest of the disciples the power to work miracles. But he is God. Only God can do what he did. And only God can give the power to others to do similar miracles.

    But it is creepy to think the entire church is possessed with the spirit of a man. This is way off the rails. As the omnipresent God however, he resides in the hearts of all believers making each complete.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    @Dave_L said:
    Jesus gave Peter and the rest of the disciples the power to work miracles.

    Elisha lived long before Jesus chose his disciples and apostles and gave them the power to do miracles.

    But he is God.

    No, he is the man Christ Jesus, and he himself declared that he could do nothing of himself but was equipped by God with holy spirit and power which then enabled him to do what he did.

    Only God can do what he did. And only God can give the power to others to do similar miracles.

    And God was the One Who did give the power to Jesus (cp Acts 10:38) when God anointed Jesus with holy spirit and power! Note that Jesus did not work any miracles prior to that event.

    But it is creepy to think the entire church is possessed with the spirit of a man.

    The church should not be possessed by any spirit .... spirit possession is Biblically only spoken of in reference to evil spirits who hold those whom they possess captive and under their control.

    God, via His holy spirit, NEVER possesses, that is takes over the control over) people ... thus what is seen nowadays in various "Pentecostal" circles as "slain in the spirit", etc is counterfeit. Such spirit possession is always by evil unclean spirits

    This is way off the rails. As the omnipresent God however, he resides in the hearts of all believers making each complete.

    The way God dwells in believers is more by believers having God's Word ( the Scriptures) dwell in their hearts ... cp Col 3:16)

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Jesus is God, not only in the NT, but in the Old as well. He was in Elisha and others but not in the same way he was the Messiah (God with us).

    “And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!”” (Galatians 4:6) (NET)

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837
    edited May 2018

    @Dave_L said:
    Jesus is God, not only in the NT, but in the Old as well.

    This is nothing but your assumption, voiced as a claim as if it were fact or truth. There is no Biblical support for such an idea ... as a matter of fact, it contradicts the most basic truths in Scripture about God and about His Messiah, the man Christ Jesus

    He was in Elisha and others but not in the same way he was the Messiah (God with us).

    No, Jesus was not in Elisha and others ... for the very simple reason, that the time had not been fulfilled for him to have been sent.
    God had given Elisha and others holy spirit upon them, and it was that power by which they were enabled by God to work miracles, receive revelation from God, etc.

    “And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!”” (Galatians 4:6) (NET)

    Yes, there is a distinction in the manner in which the man Christ Jesus is God's Son and in which believers are "sons of God".

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    We touched on this earlier, but the Greek Kurios in the LXX = YHWH.

    “And God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord (kurios).” Exodus 6:2 (LES = Septuagint)

    “God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD [YHWH].” Exodus 6:2 (ESV)

    “but Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord.” Acts 15:40 (ESV)

    “And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.” Acts 15:40 (KJV 1900)

    So again we see God and Lord used interchangably. Also in 2 Peter 2:1 and 2 Peter 2:11.

    The Greek word kurios is equivalent to the Hebrew word Yahweh or Jehovah when speaking of Jesus. This is the divine name for God. Jesus Christ is designated as the Lord in many New Testament references. This is the consistent truth of Scripture - Jesus is Yahweh or Jehovah.

    kurios = Jehovah in Exodus 6:2 in the LXX. Translated Lord 3,151 times in the NT as upper case Lord = Jehovah.

    Nestle-Aland

    “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” Jude 5 (ESV)

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,489
    edited May 2018

    @Dave_L said:
    We touched on this earlier, but the Greek Kurios in the LXX = YHWH.

    • In Acts 2.36, Peter declares that Jesus is Lord because God made him Lord, not because Jesus is God:

    "36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 2:36). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    • Paul makes a similarly clear distinction between God and the Lord Jesus in Romans 1.1-4. Jesus is the Son of God because God declared him to be the Son of God in the resurrection, not because Jesus was God:

    "1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, ..."

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ro 1:1–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    • Also note, the Greek word "kyrios" is NOT limited to a single, God-based, meaning. For example, in Acts 25.26, Festus refers to King Agrippa as "kyrios:"

    "26 But I have nothing definite to write to my lord about him. Therefore I have brought him before you all, and especially before you, King Agrippa, so that, after we have examined him, I may have something to write."

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 25:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    cf 2 Corinthians 1.24 for a verbal form of "lord" which in Greek is related to "kyrios." There, kyrios means to lord over, to dominate; it does not mean to be divine.

    Jesus has the same definition in mind when in the context of a command to wash each other's feet, he tells his disciples that they rightly call him Lord (kyrios):

    "12 When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you.

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 13:12–15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    Jesus is their lord (kyrios), the one whose direction and guidance they will follow.

    Finally, consider Genesis 23.1-16, where on more than one occasion the Hittites call Abraham "lord" (kyrios, in the Septuagint). To them, Abraham is lord (kyrios), but the word CLEARLY does not mean God.


    My point is the Greek word kyrios is used in multiple ways in Scripture, including when it refers to Jesus.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,271

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    Not only God can forgive sins, but also the Son of man ... and that man did because authority and power to do so had been given to him by God.

    This is because Jesus is God.

    Says Dave_L ... Jesus said differently in the passages quoted from Mk 2.

    Mark 2 does not say differently.

    Only he can forgive sins. Raise the dead,

    Perhaps Peter then also was God ... ??

    Apg 9,36 Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
    Apg 9,37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid [her] in an upper chamber.
    Apg 9,38 And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring [him] that he would not delay to come to them.
    Apg 9,39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
    Apg 9,40 But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning [him] to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.

    heal amputees, create eyes from clay and spit. In-dwell the hearts of believers. How creepy would it be if Jesus was merely a man who did this?

    How creepy was it that Peter raised Dorcas from the dead?

    Peter didn't. God did.

    How creepy was Elisha raising a child from the dead?

    2Ki 4,32 And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, [and] laid upon his bed.
    2Ki 4,33 He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the LORD.
    2Ki 4,34 And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm.
    2Ki 4,35 Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

    Elisha didn't, God did.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 1,837

    @reformed said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    How creepy was it that Peter raised Dorcas from the dead?

    Peter didn't. God did.

    How creepy was Elisha raising a child from the dead?

    Elisha didn't, God did.

    Well, you can say the very same concerning Jesus .... Jesus didn't, God did.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Bill_Coley said:

    @Dave_L said:
    We touched on this earlier, but the Greek Kurios in the LXX = YHWH.

    • In Acts 2.36, Peter declares that Jesus is Lord because God made him Lord, not because Jesus is God:

    "36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 2:36). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    • Paul makes a similarly clear distinction between God and the Lord Jesus in Romans 1.1-4. Jesus is the Son of God because God declared him to be the Son of God in the resurrection, not because Jesus was God:

    "1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, ..."

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ro 1:1–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    • Also note, the Greek word "kyrios" is NOT limited to a single, God-based, meaning. For example, in Acts 25.26, Festus refers to King Agrippa as "kyrios:"

    "26 But I have nothing definite to write to my lord about him. Therefore I have brought him before you all, and especially before you, King Agrippa, so that, after we have examined him, I may have something to write."

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 25:26). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    cf 2 Corinthians 1.24 for a verbal form of "lord" which in Greek is related to "kyrios." There, kyrios means to lord over, to dominate; it does not mean to be divine.

    Jesus has the same definition in mind when in the context of a command to wash each other's feet, he tells his disciples that they rightly call him Lord (kyrios):

    "12 When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you.

    The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Jn 13:12–15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

    Jesus is their lord (kyrios), the one whose direction and guidance they will follow.

    Finally, consider Genesis 23.1-16, where on more than one occasion the Hittites call Abraham "lord" (kyrios, in the Septuagint). To them, Abraham is lord (kyrios), but the word CLEARLY does not mean God.


    My point is the Greek word kyrios is used in multiple ways in Scripture, including when it refers to Jesus.

    If Jesus was man only, your assessment would be true. But he was Also God. “Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5) (NET)

    “as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” (Titus 2:13) (NET)

    “From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.” (2 Peter 1:1) (NET)

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