The Qur'an -vs- The Bible (Christian-KJV)

C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173
edited April 2018 in Apologetics

Given the fast growth rate of the Islamic Faith around the world, the use of the Qur'an is being seen in many homes and communities. Many are questions are being asked, as well as, the confusion of its status and value in today's society, especially in non-muslim countries. For example:

  1. Is the Qur'an a secular or a "Holy Book?"
  2. Can it be compared to the Bible? If so, how are they alike and different?
  3. What is the Qur'an's origin? Who is its author (s)?
  4. Does it speak of Jesus?
  5. Can Christian doctrine be found in the Qur'an?
  6. Are there any values or lessons for the Christian to learn?
  7. Which book is older- The Bible or The Qur'an?
  8. Is it possible to bring one to Christ using the Qur'an?

These and other questions are being asked in light of the times we're living and the accessibility of the Qur'an.

In addition, some seek to say some of the stories, events, and acts of violence in the Bible are in the Qur'an. Does it make a difference which book I read and believed? A case in point, a Muslim scholar Fareed Zakaria, in a Newsweek article entitled, “Why They Hate Us: The roots of Islamic Rage—and What We Can Do About it", wrote:

  • “The historian Paul Johnson has argued that Islam is intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion. Other scholars have disagreed, pointing out that Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in its condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti- Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare.” Is this a fair assessment of the teachings of the Koran and of the Bible?

How would you answer the questions above and the Muslim scholar, Fareed Zakaria? Is he correct in his conclusion? How to answer any of the questions in this OP depends on your understanding and familiarity of the Christian Bible. What say ye? CM

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Comments

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Interesting...thanks. What I notice most about the flaws in Judaism and Christianity is the replacing of scripture with tradition. And it's worse the more exposed to various christian denominations you become. And I assume Islam is the same. But must admit, I know very little about it. But I've learned, you can speak to anyone if you leave politics out of it. And I believe this includes having preference for national identities as well. That would be preferring Israel over the Palestinians, etc. Or Neo- Conservatism and their "defence planning guidance" agenda.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Dave_L said:
    Interesting...thanks. What I notice most about the flaws in Judaism and Christianity is the replacing of scripture with tradition. And it's worse the more exposed to various christian denominations you become. And I assume Islam is the same. But must admit, I know very little about it. But I've learned, you can speak to anyone if you leave politics out of it. And I believe this includes leaving out preference for national identities as well. That would be preferring Israel over the Palestinians, etc. Or Neo-Conservatism and their "defence planning guidance" agenda.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    @Dave_L said:
    Interesting...thanks. What I notice most about the flaws in Judaism and Christianity is the replacing of scripture with tradition..And I assume Islam is the same. But must admit, I know very little about it.

    This is good to admit. However, this is why CD exists. Say what you know and let others say the rest. At the end of the day, we're all blessed. For example, is the Bible "filled with poetry and contradictions", as the Muslim scholar Fareed Zakaria said?" Also, do you find in the Christian Bible condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers? Do you know how old the Christian Bible is? Lastly, do you find Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti- Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare?”

    But I've learned, you can speak to anyone if you leave politics out of it. And I believe this includes having preference for national identities as well....

    We can discuss both when we come to the place where humility and a teachable spirit can guide our theological endeavors instead of defensiveness and ideological politics. If it is true that “we know in part,” that we “see in a mirror dimly” (1 Cor 13:9, 12, ESV), then the strength of our convictions needs to be balanced with a deep awareness that our best efforts are flawed and that God uses those we disagree with to take the rough edges off our own opinions.

    Are you telling me you don't or one should discuss the death of Jesus? Didn't politics play a role in Jesus' crucifixion?

    Synoptic Gospels convey a real death sentence is indicated clearly (Matt 20:18-19; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 18:31-32). Jesus predicts that the chief priests and scribes will "condemn" Him to death (Mark 14:64). It is of greatest significance to the evangelists that Jesus is condemned to death as the Messiah by His contemporaries (Matt 26:63-64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:67-70).

    In a parallel affirmation, now before Pilate, Jesus acknowledges that He is king (Matt 27:11; Mark 15:1-2; Luke 23:1-3). Therefore, the Synoptics insist on the fact that as King and Messiah of the Jews Jesus was sentenced to be crucified (Matt 27:37; Mark 15:26; Luke 23:38; cf. John 19:19-22).

    According to Jewett, "in light of recent studies of the crucifixion, it is inappropriate to deny complicity on the part of Jewish authorities." Paul's declaration seems to agree with the report of the Gospels and with the theological evidence of the New Testament that some Jews carried upon themselves the responsibility of having killed the Lord Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God.

    There must be and should be a separation of church and state, but not to discuss politics, is a bit too much of the "head in the sand", for me. CM

    SOURCES:

    --- Bammel, Ernst. "The Trial before Pilate." In Jesus and the Politics of His Day. Edited by E. Bammel and C. F. D. Moule, 415-51. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1984.

    -- Reicke, Bo I. "Judaeo-Christianity and the Jewish Establishment, AD 33-66." In Jesus and the Politics of His Day. ed. E. Bammel and C. F. D. Moule, 145—52. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984.

    -- Jewett, Robert. The Thessalonian Correspondence: Pauline Rhetoric and Millenarian Piety. Philadelphia, PA: Fortress Press, 1986, 38.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    How do we discuss politics without alienating those of opposing political views? All politics, whether conservative or progressive = Carnal mindedness, with a BIG "C".

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    @Dave_L said:

    How do we discuss politics without alienating those of opposing political views?

    Dave,

    “Politics is when people choose their words and actions based on how they want others to react rather than based on what they really think”. “The greatest obstacle to effective leadership is people pursuing their own agenda rather than seeking God’s will” without being even aware of their doing so. Many have noticed the frequent discrepancy between profession and action, “Those who make it hardest to be a Christian in this world are the other Christians”.

    History has proven that issues of power and politics can muddy theological considerations. However, we can navigate the two to meaningful discussions and holy living.

    All politics, whether conservative or progressive = Carnal mindedness, with a BIG "C".

    I am almost afraid to ask you where did you get this? Are you suggesting Jesus was "Carnal minded?" Perhaps, you should look up the word "politics". See the last reference below. However, let's not get lost here. Remember the OP. CM

    SOURCES:

    -- Lencioni, P. (2002). The five dysfunctions of a team: A leadership fable. San Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass, p 88.

    -- Blackaby, H. T., & Blackaby, R. (2001). Spiritual leadership: Moving people on to God's agenda. Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman, p 23.

    -- Enroth, R. M. (1992). Churches that abuse. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, p. iX.

    --John Howard Yoder, The Politics of Jesus (1994) (Mennonite writer examines the political implications of Christ's life and teaching, esp. in regard to non-violence).

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    Where did Jesus or any NT figure preach politics? “They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:5–6) (KJV 1900)

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    @Dave_L said:
    Where did Jesus or any NT figure preach politics?

    Dave,
    Good question, however, I will not continue to discuss this matter in this thread. I will do it elsewhere. Notwithstanding, a short answer to your question is in the definition of the word "politics", as I said in my previous post. Also, consider some of the resources I suggested. Until the new subject post, remember this OP. Blessings! CM

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @C_M_ said:

    @Dave_L said:
    Where did Jesus or any NT figure preach politics?

    Dave,
    Good question, however, I will not continue to discuss this matter in this thread. I will do it elsewhere. Notwithstanding, a short answer to your question is in the definition of the word "politics", as I said in my previous post. Also, consider some of the resources I suggested. Until the new subject post, remember this OP. Blessings! CM

    Nice sharing with you CM. Thanks for your posts.

  • JanJan Posts: 269

    The only reason that Islam is still growing is the high birth rate among Muslims. In fact, the apostacy rate among Muslims is on an all-time high.

    And now to the questions:

    1. Is the Qur'an a secular or a "Holy Book?"

    How do you define a "Holy Book"? To me, a "Holy Book" must necessarily contain the infallible word of God.

    Since the Qur'an claims that Jesus was not crucified (and therefore implies he never rose), it is not infallible, and therefor not a Holy Book.

    1. Can it be compared to the Bible? If so, how are they alike and different?

    They are in no way alike. To the Muslim, the Qur'an is the eternal word of God, similar to what Jesus himself is to a Christian. Muslim belief is that the Quar'an is a verbatim copy of the heavenly Qur'an that has existed unchanged since eternity.

    Little do they know that the Qur'an has been standardized only in the 1920, and there are still dozens of different versions around. It is also proven that a number of suras have been lost. Muslim scholars do their best to keep these facts from the flock, but thank God this kind of information can easily be found on the internet these days.

    1. What is the Qur'an's origin? Who is its author (s)?

    Since there are numerous cases in which suras are suddenly revealed to Muhammad to justify his previous acts (such as marrying his own adopted son's wife, or slaughtering a barely armed Meccan caravan during the holy month), it is obvious to me that the Qur'an has mere human authorship.

    1. Does it speak of Jesus?

    It speaks of a distorted version of Jesus.

    1. Can Christian doctrine be found in the Qur'an?

    It contains distorted Christian doctrine.

    1. Are there any values or lessons for the Christian to learn?

    Scattered around here and there... but not worth the hassle separating them out from all the rest.

    1. Which book is older- The Bible or The Qur'an?

    Since the Qur'an speaks of the Bible, and the oldest complete Bible manuscripts date hundreds of years before the Qur'an was written, it is clear that the Bible is much older.

    Muslims claim that the Bible we have today was corrupted after the Qur'an was written, but literally all manuscript finds disprove that claim.

    There's a dilemma here. The Qur'an claims that it affirms the truth of the Old Testament and New Testament. Yet the Old Testament and New Testament that existed at the time of Muhammad are the same OT and NT that exist today, and contradict the Qur'an historically and doctrinally in most major points.

    1. Is it possible to bring one to Christ using the Qur'an?

    Interestingly, yes. There seem to be at least two distinct ways to bring Muslims to Christ: by using the Qur'an and by attacking the Qur'an.

    In addition, some seek to say some of the stories, events, and acts of violence in the Bible are in the Qur'an. Does it make a difference which book I read and believed? A case in point, a Muslim scholar Fareed Zakaria, in a Newsweek article entitled, “Why They Hate Us: The roots of Islamic Rage—and What We Can Do About it", wrote:

    There is violence in the Bible as well, however, it is largely descriptive and not prescriptive. In the few cases of prescriptive violence in the Bible, these are very specific cases during the taking of Canaan by the Israelites, and not valid today. To the Christian, Jesus message of complete non-violence and peacefulness is the only valid message.

    Violence in the Qur'an however is prescriptive in most cases, to all Muslims at all times. Sura 9, the most violent of them all, is the last sura written by Muhammad, and abrogates all previous (contradicting) peaceful statements.

    • “The historian Paul Johnson has argued that Islam is intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion. Other scholars have disagreed, pointing out that Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in its condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti- Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare.” Is this a fair assessment of the teachings of the Koran and of the Bible?

    We must distinguish between Islam as a religion, and Muslims. Islam is "intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion". The Qur'an may contain peaceful passages, but they have mainly been abrogated. Also, the Qur'an names Muhammad as the prime example of a perfect life that every Muslim is supposed to copy in as many aspects as possible. From the life of Muhammad (Hadith), however, we can mostly derive a lot of violence, hatred, sexism, and more violence and hatred.

    Muslims, however, especially in the West, honestly believe that Islam means "peace" and is essentially a religion of peace.

    Virtually all Muslims I know are peaceful and friendly and toleranr, have picked the few peaceful aspects of their religion, and probably have never been taught all the gory details.

    Muslims in general are far from being intrinsically intolerant and violent.

    More details here:
    https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/55767/no-god-but-one-allah-or-jesus
    https://www.youtube.com/user/Acts17Apologetics

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Jan said:
    The only reason that Islam is still growing is the high birth rate among Muslims. In fact, the apostacy rate among Muslims is on an all-time high.

    And now to the questions:

    1. Is the Qur'an a secular or a "Holy Book?"

    How do you define a "Holy Book"? To me, a "Holy Book" must necessarily contain the infallible word of God.

    Since the Qur'an claims that Jesus was not crucified (and therefore implies he never rose), it is not infallible, and therefor not a Holy Book.

    1. Can it be compared to the Bible? If so, how are they alike and different?

    They are in no way alike. To the Muslim, the Qur'an is the eternal word of God, similar to what Jesus himself is to a Christian. Muslim belief is that the Quar'an is a verbatim copy of the heavenly Qur'an that has existed unchanged since eternity.

    Little do they know that the Qur'an has been standardized only in the 1920, and there are still dozens of different versions around. It is also proven that a number of suras have been lost. Muslim scholars do their best to keep these facts from the flock, but thank God this kind of information can easily be found on the internet these days.

    1. What is the Qur'an's origin? Who is its author (s)?

    Since there are numerous cases in which suras are suddenly revealed to Muhammad to justify his previous acts (such as marrying his own adopted son's wife, or slaughtering a barely armed Meccan caravan during the holy month), it is obvious to me that the Qur'an has mere human authorship.

    1. Does it speak of Jesus?

    It speaks of a distorted version of Jesus.

    1. Can Christian doctrine be found in the Qur'an?

    It contains distorted Christian doctrine.

    1. Are there any values or lessons for the Christian to learn?

    Scattered around here and there... but not worth the hassle separating them out from all the rest.

    1. Which book is older- The Bible or The Qur'an?

    Since the Qur'an speaks of the Bible, and the oldest complete Bible manuscripts date hundreds of years before the Qur'an was written, it is clear that the Bible is much older.

    Muslims claim that the Bible we have today was corrupted after the Qur'an was written, but literally all manuscript finds disprove that claim.

    There's a dilemma here. The Qur'an claims that it affirms the truth of the Old Testament and New Testament. Yet the Old Testament and New Testament that existed at the time of Muhammad are the same OT and NT that exist today, and contradict the Qur'an historically and doctrinally in most major points.

    1. Is it possible to bring one to Christ using the Qur'an?

    Interestingly, yes. There seem to be at least two distinct ways to bring Muslims to Christ: by using the Qur'an and by attacking the Qur'an.

    In addition, some seek to say some of the stories, events, and acts of violence in the Bible are in the Qur'an. Does it make a difference which book I read and believed? A case in point, a Muslim scholar Fareed Zakaria, in a Newsweek article entitled, “Why They Hate Us: The roots of Islamic Rage—and What We Can Do About it", wrote:

    There is violence in the Bible as well, however, it is largely descriptive and not prescriptive. In the few cases of prescriptive violence in the Bible, these are very specific cases during the taking of Canaan by the Israelites, and not valid today. To the Christian, Jesus message of complete non-violence and peacefulness is the only valid message.

    Violence in the Qur'an however is prescriptive in most cases, to all Muslims at all times. Sura 9, the most violent of them all, is the last sura written by Muhammad, and abrogates all previous (contradicting) peaceful statements.

    • “The historian Paul Johnson has argued that Islam is intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion. Other scholars have disagreed, pointing out that Islam condemns the slaughter of innocents and prohibits suicide. Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in its condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti- Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare.” Is this a fair assessment of the teachings of the Koran and of the Bible?

    We must distinguish between Islam as a religion, and Muslims. Islam is "intrinsically an intolerant and violent religion". The Qur'an may contain peaceful passages, but they have mainly been abrogated. Also, the Qur'an names Muhammad as the prime example of a perfect life that every Muslim is supposed to copy in as many aspects as possible. From the life of Muhammad (Hadith), however, we can mostly derive a lot of violence, hatred, sexism, and more violence and hatred.

    Muslims, however, especially in the West, honestly believe that Islam means "peace" and is essentially a religion of peace.

    Virtually all Muslims I know are peaceful and friendly and toleranr, have picked the few peaceful aspects of their religion, and probably have never been taught all the gory details.

    Muslims in general are far from being intrinsically intolerant and violent.

    More details here:
    https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/55767/no-god-but-one-allah-or-jesus
    https://www.youtube.com/user/Acts17Apologetics

    Thanks for the post. It helps clear up a few things for me. I was always confused hearing what appeared to be double message from Muslims. I remember Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) being a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. So for the first time I saw the stereotype broken. And then I compare him to ISIS but still hold back thinking all Muslims are cut from the same cloth. Apart from Ali, and his opposition to violence I might think otherwise.

    But we see the same extremes in Christianity between violence and non resistance. So I don't think we can stereotype any religion.

  • JanJan Posts: 269

    Cassius Clay was a good man (by worldly standards), who was tragically deceived by Islam in multiple ways. His case actually displays very well that Islam not only pretends to be a religion of peace, but also a religion for the "oppressed coloured people" entirely ignoring that Muhammad had white skin, not coloured, and that over the centuries a whole lot more black slaves lived and died under Muslim dominance than under white Christian rule.

    Acts 17 Apologetcs also has a video about Clay.

  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    I can see how Ali would want a spiritual identity apart from the white folk who made life so miserable for blacks. And had the church been more Christ like he and others might not have felt so alienated from Christ by them. It's the same today when I speak out against Christians taking political sides. We preach to the choir while driving away the audience.

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 478

    Excellent and astute points Dave L!

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    @Jan said:
    The only reason that Islam is still growing is the high birth rate among Muslims. In fact, the apostacy rate among Muslims is on an all-time high.

    Is not this is the same reality of Catholic and Protestant Churches? I think I recall a Barna Report that a large percentage of churches grow biologically because of a lack of evangelism of outreach of inclusion. I stand to be corrected here.

    Before going further, I want to say, thanks very much, Jan, for taking the time to respond to my post.

    And now to the questions:

    1. Is the Qur'an a secular or a "Holy Book?"

    How do you define a "Holy Book"? To me, a "Holy Book" must necessarily contain the infallible word of God.

    Can a people declare thing holy (set apart for sacred use)? Am I to understand you to be saying that a "Holy Book" must be universally acknowledged to be recognized?

    Since the Qur'an claims that Jesus was not crucified (and therefore implies he never rose), it is not infallible, and therefor not a Holy Book.

    Did you cite a reference from the Qur'an for your above point? Does citing a quote saying Jesus was crucified makes the Christian Bible "Holy?"

    1. Can it be compared to the Bible? If so, how are they alike and different?

    They are in no way alike. To the Muslim, the Qur'an is the eternal word of God, similar to what Jesus himself is to a Christian. Muslim belief is that the Quar'an is a verbatim copy of the heavenly Qur'an that has existed unchanged since eternity.

    Little do they know that the Qur'an has been standardized only in the 1920, and there are still dozens of different versions around. It is also proven that a number of suras have been lost. Muslim scholars do their best to keep these facts from the flock, but thank God this kind of information can easily be found on the internet these days.

    Are there not a number of translations, manuscripts, and KJV editions around? Do we have all the words of Jesus, his acts, and the disciples recorded, in the Christian Bible? Are there not lost books of kings and judges of the OT? In short, are there writers and books mentioned in the Christian Bible that don't exist?

    1. What is the Qur'an's origin? Who is its author (s)?

    Since there are numerous cases in which suras are suddenly revealed to Muhammad to justify his previous acts (such as marrying his own adopted son's wife, or slaughtering a barely armed Meccan caravan during the holy month), it is obvious to me that the Qur'an has mere human authorship.

    1. Does it speak of Jesus?
    2. Can Christian doctrine be found in the Qur'an?

    It speaks of a "distorted version of Jesus" and "distorted Christian doctrine (s)",can we take the Qur'an lemons and correct Christian Lemonade?

    1. Are there any values or lessons for the Christian to learn?

    Scattered around here and there... but not worth the hassle separating them out from all the rest.

    Even a garbage pile of scrapped foods wrapped and untouched can be found by the hungry searcher. Can we help him search?

    1. Which book is older- The Bible or The Qur'an?

    Since the Qur'an speaks of the Bible, and the oldest complete Bible manuscripts date hundreds of years before the Qur'an was written, it is clear that the Bible is much older.

    • "Muslims believe that the Quran was verbally revealed by God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibril), gradually over a period of approximately 23 years, beginning on 22 December 609 CE, when Muhammad was 40, and concluding in 632, the year of his death.
    • "The Quran was collected under the auspices of committee of four senior ranking Companions headed by Zayd ibn Thabit. This compilation was kept by the Caliph Abu Bakr, after his death by his successor, Caliph Umar, who on his deathbed gave them to Hafsa bint Umar, his daughter and one of Muhammad's widows."
    • Muhammad's first revelation. Muhammad's first revelation was an event described in Islam as taking place in 610 AD, during which the Islamic prophet, Muhammad was visited by the archangel Gabriel, who revealed to him the beginnings of what would later become the Quran."
    1. Is it possible to bring one to Christ using the Qur'an?

    Interestingly, yes. There seem to be at least two distinct ways to bring Muslims to Christ: by using the Qur'an and by attacking the Qur'an.

    This interesting. To connect the dots of your responses the questions above I don't see how this is possible. You said:
    1. The Qur' ran "is not infallible, and therefore not a Holy Book."
    2. The Qur' ran is "in no way alike" to the Christian Bible.
    3. The Qur'ran has "proven that a number of suras have been lost."
    4. In The Qur' ran "there are numerous cases in which suras are suddenly revealed to Muhammad to justify his previous acts."
    5. In The Qur' ran values are "scattered around here and there... but not worth the hassle separating them out from all the rest."
    6. Then at whatever point, you would "attack the Qur'an."

    Why would a Muslims sit with you or subject himself to your reality of his book, religion, and leader?

    There an American English phrase "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." I just found out something amazing about flies, vinegar, and honey that turns this old idiom on its ear!

    • "The design of a fly trap that attracts them with vinegar, but traps them with honey. It's an inverted jar, and the flies, lured in by the smell of the vinegar (vinegar smells like rotting fruit to them, which they adore) are tricked into going higher up the jar, where the sides are coated with honey. They get stuck on the honey. I think the basic meaning of the saying remains intact, that if we want people to do what we want, we should be sweet and not rude to them."

    There must be a better way. Jan, let's see how can we reach Muslims with love and respect? Witness to them without turning them off. This would be a nice project for all in CD to share in another thread under the category of "Ministry Methods". More next time. CM

  • JanJan Posts: 269

    @Dave_L said:
    I can see how Ali would want a spiritual identity apart from the white folk who made life so miserable for blacks.

    Made? Still make...

    @C_M_ said:

    @Jan said:
    The only reason that Islam is still growing is the high birth rate among Muslims. In fact, the apostacy rate among Muslims is on an all-time high.

    Is not this is the same reality of Catholic and Protestant Churches? I think I recall a Barna Report that a large percentage of churches grow biologically because of a lack of evangelism of outreach of inclusion. I stand to be corrected here.

    Churches are mushrooming in places like China. I don't think that Christianity is globally reclining.
    It surely is declining in the West though.
    And Islam grows faster than Christianity.

    The problem is that Muslims often use this as an argument for a truth claim, which is problematic an many ways.

    1. Is the Qur'an a secular or a "Holy Book?"

    How do you define a "Holy Book"? To me, a "Holy Book" must necessarily contain the infallible word of God.

    Can a people declare thing holy (set apart for sacred use)? Am I to understand you to be saying that a "Holy Book" must be universally acknowledged to be recognized?

    This is not at all what I'm saying. I was asking for the definition of Holy Book, and gave my personal definition as an example, according to which the Qur'an is not holy.

    Since the Qur'an claims that Jesus was not crucified (and therefore implies he never rose), it is not infallible, and therefor not a Holy Book.

    Did you cite a reference from the Qur'an for your above point? Does citing a quote saying Jesus was crucified makes the Christian Bible "Holy?"

    I don't think so. Should be somehow agree on a universal definition of "Holy Book", we can find out for certain.

    1. Can it be compared to the Bible? If so, how are they alike and different?

    They are in no way alike. To the Muslim, the Qur'an is the eternal word of God, similar to what Jesus himself is to a Christian. Muslim belief is that the Quar'an is a verbatim copy of the heavenly Qur'an that has existed unchanged since eternity.

    Little do they know that the Qur'an has been standardized only in the 1920, and there are still dozens of different versions around. It is also proven that a number of suras have been lost. Muslim scholars do their best to keep these facts from the flock, but thank God this kind of information can easily be found on the internet these days.

    **Are there not a number of translations, manuscripts, and KJV editions around?

    Oh, there are, and I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful that Christians throughout history preserved their manuscripts, enabling us today to do textual criticism and research the original text.

    On the other hand, all but one Qur'an manuscripts were burned by Uthman in 651, eliminating all versions that did not confrom to his standard text.

    The Hadith records an ample amount of examples that people afterwards complained about changes in the text, missing suras etc.

    Problem is that the Qur'an claims that it cannot be changed. Now history has recorded that changes did occur, and even worse, that the original has been lost.

    The Bible never makes such claim.

    Do we have all the words of Jesus, his acts, and the disciples recorded, in the Christian Bible?

    No, John explicitly write that it's incomplete.
    Jesus's original words were probably Aramaic, and we only have them in Greek. There has already been a loss of information through translation into Greek.
    Then the four Gospels sometimes record Jesus's words slightly differently, which is further evidence that we don't have the original words.

    However, the Bible doesn't claim that we have the original words, therefore it poses no problem to the Christian faith.

    Are there not lost books of kings and judges of the OT? In short, are there writers and books mentioned in the Christian Bible that don't exist?**

    Sure. Book of Jubilees etc. Again, the Bible makes no claim that it is the preserved copy of a heavenly manuscript. The Bible clearly identifies most of its human authors, and claims that the words were inspired by the Holy Spirit. There's no contradiction to that claim.

    Whereas there's plenty of contradiction to the claim that the Qur'an is a copy of a heavenly manuscript that cannot be changed or altered.

    1. Is it possible to bring one to Christ using the Qur'an?

    Interestingly, yes. There seem to be at least two distinct ways to bring Muslims to Christ: by using the Qur'an and by attacking the Qur'an.

    This interesting. To connect the dots of your responses the questions above I don't see how this is possible. You said:
    1. The Qur' ran "is not infallible, and therefore not a Holy Book."
    2. The Qur' ran is "in no way alike" to the Christian Bible.
    3. The Qur'ran has "proven that a number of suras have been lost."
    4. In The Qur' ran "there are numerous cases in which suras are suddenly revealed to Muhammad to justify his previous acts."
    5. In The Qur' ran values are "scattered around here and there... but not worth the hassle separating them out from all the rest."
    6. Then at whatever point, you would "attack the Qur'an."

    Why would a Muslims sit with you or subject himself to your reality of his book, religion, and leader?

    Why would a Muslim watch David Wood's videos? I think they do because they want to prove him wrong. Since he gives canonical evidence for each and every of his claims, Muslims can't disprove him.

    Muslims love to discuss and to debate, and if you can get them researching about missing suras, textual reliability, evidence for Jesus's crucificion etc., then that's excellent.

    There an American English phrase "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." I just found out something amazing about flies, vinegar, and honey that turns this old idiom on its ear!

    • "The design of a fly trap that attracts them with vinegar, but traps them with honey. It's an inverted jar, and the flies, lured in by the smell of the vinegar (vinegar smells like rotting fruit to them, which they adore) are tricked into going higher up the jar, where the sides are coated with honey. They get stuck on the honey. I think the basic meaning of the saying remains intact, that if we want people to do what we want, we should be sweet and not rude to them."

    There must be a better way. Jan, let's see how can we reach Muslims with love and respect? Witness to them without turning them off. This would be a nice project for all in CD to share in another thread under the category of "Ministry Methods". More next time. CM

    There's also a cultural aspect. in Middle Eastern culture, people defend their positions with zeal and passion. If you don't show the same, even if your argements are the better ones, you're not going to convince many. You still gotta do it with love and respect, of course.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173
    edited April 2018
  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,328

    @Jan said:

    @Dave_L said:
    I can see how Ali would want a spiritual identity apart from the white folk who made life so miserable for blacks.

    Made? Still make...

    Yes, excellent point. I'm aware of racism in the News. But we have zero tolerance for racism locally with few exceptions.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    @Jan said: There's also a cultural aspect. in Middle Eastern culture, people defend their positions with zeal and passion. If you don't show the same, even if your argements are the better ones, you're not going to convince many. You still gotta do it with love and respect, of course.

    Jan, as promised, I wanted to start exploring ways Christians can reach Muslims with love and respect. Discover ways to witness to them without turning them off. I hope others would join in. See new OP under the category of "Ministry Methods". CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    Christians and Muslims are in the “parallels and overlapping sections of the Bible and the Qur’an”.

    a) There is only one God (Deut 6:4; Mk 12:29; Muhammad 47:19).
    b) God created everything (Gen 1:1; Ash-Shura 42:11).
    c) Creation lasted for six days (Ex 20:11; Qaf 50:38)
    d) God is omnipotent (1 Tim 6:16; Al-Anam 6:103).

    Is it obvious that these texts in the Bible and the Qur’an are referring to the same God? What say ye? CM

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    There is an urgent need for Christians to reach Muslims.

    CD Family,

    Did you know that there are more Muslims than Methodist Christians in the United States now. Many Muslims now live in large cosmopolitan centers like Amsterdam, London, Paris, Sydney, Toronto, Los Angeles and New York (See sources below).

    Islam has rapidly grown to become the second largest religion, with more than one billion followers, or about one-fifth of the world's total estimated population today.

    The world's total estimated population in 1996 was about 5.8 billion (now about 7 billion), of which Muslims numbered about 1.1 billion (approx). If we don't go to them, they are coming to us or being converted to Islam under our noses. The question remains, how do we reach them for Christ? For starters, we need to begin to understand them as a people, their culture, their "Holy Book", The Qur'an.

    If you have any helpful, practical, functional suggestions, please share them in the thread entitled: "Witnessing to Muslims: Effective Methods For Christians." CM

    SOURCES:

    -- Norman L. Geisler and Abdul Saleeb, Answering Islam: The Crescent in Light of the Cross (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1993), 9.

    -- William J. Saal, Reaching Muslims for Christ (Chicago: Moody, 1993), 23.

    -- David B. Barrett, "Annual Statistical Table on Global Mission: 1996," International Bulletin of Missionary Research 20 (1996): 25.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    From the OP, can the Quran be compared to the Bible? How are they alike and different?

    The Bible 

    • The Bible was written over a period of about 1,500 years by many authors in a variety of historical and cultural settings.
    • It helps to explain most of the seeming discrepancies in the Bible.
    •  New Testament is based on more than 5,000 manuscripts, many of which can be dated to within 300 years of their original authorship, with some much earlier.
    • The Bible is not like the Quran in its origins, textual history, and self understanding.

    The Qur'an

    • Records the very words of God to Mohammad the prophet.
    •  Every word in the Qur'an is sacred.  
    • Muslims do not believe in translating the Qur'an and must study it in its original Arabic form.
    • The Qur'an was spoken by one man over a period of about 20 years. When Mohammad spoke, people wrote his words on palm stalks and stone tablets. 
    • The Qur'an was spoken by one man over a period of about 20 years. 
    • When Mohammad spoke, people wrote his words on palm stalks and stone tablets. 

    What say ye? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,527

    The Koran is evil in every way.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    So are guns, mass shooters, , crooked politicians, slaveholders, the rich not paying their fair share in taxes, racists, Christian Churches refusing LGBTQ people at the door, locking kids in cages, cops shooting a man in his own apartment, etc.

    Evil things and people are given a defense and a news channel to promote their talking points in the USA. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,527

    No, guns are not evil in every way. The rich DO pay their fair share in taxes, this is a lie of the left that says they don't and is flat ignorant. Christians refusing sin in the church is not evil. Nobody is locking kids in cages.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173
    edited October 21

    Reformed,

    Let's not get lost here. Guns were made to kill! God didn't make them nor did He ordained its creation. It was the evil in the heart of men's to take life. Your politics seem to blind you to tact  and sensitivity in dealing with others or with difficult issues") and the sweetness of Jesus.

    Let's keep the main thing the main thing":

    In order to reach muslims for Christ, we establish relationships. We must acknowledge what they hold dear as their "Holy Book". We must seek common ground, as well as, reflect contrasts.

    Let's not forget, the Christian's greatest tool is his personal testimony, in light of The Word. Calling "The Koran is evil in every way", is not moving forward or effective in reaching the large and growing Muslim population. Have you forgotten the examples of Jesus and other biblical parables in relating to non-believers? e.g. Jesus at Simon's house, the Good Samaritan, Jesus going to Zacchaeus' house, the woman caught in adultery, etc.

    God, “Himself, is kind to ungrateful and evil men” (Luke 6:35). Remember the virtuous woman, "She opens her mouth with wisdom, and on her tongue is the law of kindness (Proverbs 31:26).

    "Every word of kindness is reported before the throne of God". The Psalmist says, “Because Thy loving kindness is better than life, my lips shall praise Thee” (Ps 63:3). In all, “kindness is an unmistakable and essential characteristic of love" (Cf. 1 Cor. 13:4). CM

    Sources:

    • E. Beyreuther, New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 2:106.
    • So Spicq, Theological Lexicon of the New Testament 3:515.
    Post edited by C_M_ on
  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,527

    There is no common ground with Islam.

    Acknowledgeing that they claim it is a holy book does not make it one nor should we affirm it.


    Calling a book evil in every way is not unkind no matter how you try to spin it. It's truth.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,173

    Not so fast, Mr. Reformed. "Slow your roll"!

    @CM said:

    1. "We must acknowledge what they hold dear as their "Holy Book".
    2. "We must seek common ground" -- Similarities
    3. "Reflect contrasts-- opposites or differences

    To acknowledge what a person holds dear, is not the same as making their book "Holy". It's like a salesperson, listening to a customer for needs and value. We must see where a person is coming to properly respond or to help. Even in war, one must gauge the enemy's ideology, strength, and strategy to effectively counter his attacks. So, the above three are necessary to make inroads into the Muslim Community effectively reaching them for Christ (Matt. 28:18-20).

    For starters, let's look at the name "Michael":

    The Bible mentions Michael (his name means “Who is like God?”) in five passages:

    1. In Dan 10:13, Michael is presented as one of the chief princes.
    2. In Dan 10:21, Michael is the only one who is able to help Gabriel in his battle over the minds of the Persian leaders. He is also portrayed as thePrince of God’s people.
    3. Dan 12:1 depicts Michael as the One who stands for His people, that is, he is their intercessor, protector, and help in the time of trouble. He is pictured as the great Prince.
    4. According to Jude 1:9, Michael has authority to resurrect Moses and is characterized as an archangel.
    5. In Rev 12:7, Michael is the leader of the heavenly army and defeats Satan and his fallen angels. His victory is described in a colorful manner.

    When the above texts are connected with 1 Thess 4:16-18 and John 5:26- 29, it becomes evident that Michael’s voice is the voice of the archangel, and this is the voice of Jesus at the resurrection day. On the basis of his role, authority, position, and mission one may conclude that Michael is Christ.

    On the other hand:

    Muslims also believe in the existence of Mikal (biblical Michael) and those who oppose him will suffer Allah’s judgment:

    “Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His Angels and His Messengers, and Jibril and Mikal, then surely Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers” (Qur’an 2:98).

    This is the only but highly significant reference to Michael in the Qur’an.

    So, you see, let's be slow to dismiss offhand that "The Koran is evil in every way". I am sure, there are other points of "common grounds" to be highlighted. Somewhere, I heard that, "all religions have some truth, but not all religions are Christian." Truth found truth shared. Be blessed brother, Reformed. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,527

    No. Give ZERO credit to false religions and their documents. Do not give them an inch.

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 478


    Yet, Paul did so for the sake of relating the message of gospel to people the see Acts 17:22, Acts 17:28, 1 Corinthians 15:33, and Titus 1:12. Paul quotes a Hymn to Zeus by Aratus, Epimenides of Phaestus, and, Menander. Paul does not praise their works, but he does not ignore their their documents either. For our sake Paul even explains this concept here: 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,736

    @Mitchell posted:

    Yet, Paul did so for the sake of relating the message of gospel to people the see Acts 17:22Acts 17:281 Corinthians 15:33, and Titus 1:12. Paul quotes a Hymn to Zeus by Aratus, Epimenides of Phaestus, and, Menander. Paul does not praise their works, but he does not ignore their their documents either. For our sake Paul even explains this concept here: 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

    You offer a necessary and well made point. Thanks.

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