Is Jesus Deity?
Comments
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The NT is actually silent on its own canonization process and NT may be quoting from a pre Masoretic text rather than the LXX as the evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls show (or even from the Targums), but still I am curious does this mean that you accept the all of the LXX as being inspired and do you then use Bible that has an OT translated from the LXX?
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@Mitchell said:
The NT is actually silent on its own canonization process and NT may be quoting from a pre Masoretic text rather than the LXX as the evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls show (or even from the Targums), but still I am curious does this mean that you accept the all of the LXX as being inspired and do you then use Bible that has an OT translated from the LXX?I believe Jesus gives credibility to using translations above the closest thing we have to an original text. As I've always said, I interpret the OT through the NT writers who interpret it for me. And I don't form any hard fast conclusions on anything they omitted.
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I also believe that the NT as a whole gives credibility to using translations, but I am not convinced that means that translations are somehow inerrant and inspired.
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@Mitchell said:
I also believe that the NT as a whole gives credibility to using translations, but I am not convinced that means that translations are somehow inerrant and inspired.I believe just as we have four gospels that provide a clearer understanding when combined, many translations provide a fuller view.
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I also believe that multiple translations serve as good commentary on the text. I personally get a lot of reading Franz Delitzsch translation of New Testament into Hebrew and sometimes the Peshitta.
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@Mitchell said:
I also believe that multiple translations serve as good commentary on the text. I personally get a lot of reading Franz Delitzsch translation of New Testament into Hebrew and sometimes the Peshitta.Mitchell,
To fully appreciate your suggestion, what about the man, Franz Delitzsch, and his work in the translation of New Testament into Hebrew? A brief summary and/or a reference would be appreciated. CM -
@C_M_ said:
To fully appreciate your suggestionI was explaining what I do I was not suggesting or advising that others do the same
@C_M_ said:
what about the man, Franz DelitzschWho was he? He was a German Lutheran and a Christian Hebraist or Christian scholar of Hebrew (not just classical Hebrew) and Jewish literature. He is probably most famous in Christian cirlces for the Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament (COT) (10 vols.) (link). He was also an activist He defended the Jews from anti-Semitic attacks. An Orthodox Jewish writer named Pinchas Lapide (not a Christian/Messianic Jew) was a big fan of Franz Delitzsch and wrote much about him in "Hebrew in the church: The foundations of Jewish-Christian dialogue"
The old and free Jewish Encyclopedia has an article about him:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5063-delitzsch-franzand so does Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Delitzsch@C_M_ said:
and his work in the translation of New Testament into HebrewHere is an old article that describes the Hebrew NT translation:
The Hebrew New Testament of the British and foreign Bible society: a contribution to Hebrew philology by Delitzsch, Franz Julius, 1813-1890
http://www.archive.org/stream/hebrewnewtestame00deli#page/n0/mode/2up
andhttp://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3158076.pdfrefreqid=excelsior%3A6420683a462d014b7c5e7cdbe6de7862
In addition, the book I mentioned above Hebrew in the Church provides an overview and History of the different editions of that NT translation in Hebrew.
None, of that however explains why or how I can use his translation of the NT into Hebrew as a commentary. Later, I would like to exaplain more fully, but right I will say that there were a number of different NT concepts I thought were unreleated to the Hebrew Bible and were hellenistic pagan until I stubbled upon his NT translation in a library.
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how do these points regarding Delitzsch and Hebrew translations, commentary, etc have an effect on answering the question "Is Jesus Deity?"
I would deem it more appropriate to discuss and explore points which more directly relate to the topic of the threat ... -
This I am aware of. No misunderstanding here.
@C_M_ said:
what about the man, Franz DelitzschWho was he? He was a German Lutheran and a Christian Hebraist or Christian scholar of Hebrew (not just classical Hebrew) and Jewish literature. He is probably most famous in Christian cirlces for the Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament (COT) (10 vols.) (link). He was also an activist He defended the Jews from anti-Semitic attacks. An Orthodox Jewish writer named Pinchas Lapide (not a Christian/Messianic Jew) was a big fan of Franz Delitzsch and wrote much about him in "Hebrew in the church: The foundations of Jewish-Christian dialogue"
Thanks for sharing. You always give meaty responses and then some. Blessings, upon you.
@C_M_ said:
and his work in the translation of New Testament into HebrewHere is an old article that describes the Hebrew NT translation:
The Hebrew New Testament of the British and foreign Bible society: a contribution to Hebrew philology by Delitzsch, Franz Julius, 1813-1890
http://www.archive.org/stream/hebrewnewtestame00deli#page/n0/mode/2up
andIn addition, the book I mentioned above Hebrew in the Church provides an overview and History of the different editions of that NT translation in Hebrew.
None, of that however explains why or how I can use his translation of the NT into Hebrew as a commentary. Later, I would like to exaplain more fully, but right I will say that there were a number of different NT concepts I thought were unreleated to the Hebrew Bible and were hellenistic pagan until I stubbled upon his NT translation in a library.
It's always nice to consider the source. The pesty little reality of presuppositions stands over all translations and theologies as a mother hen over her chicks. Your information was a necessary deviation. CM
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Much of the discussion on this thread (including that which you have been a part of) has absolutely nothing to do with answering the question "Is Jesus Deity?".
@Wolfgang said:
I would deem it more appropriate to discuss and explore points which more directly relate to the topic of the threat ...So, would I, but I am sure you are very well aware how this thread keeps getting taken of the track.
Post edited by Mitchell on -
If we were trying to answer the question of the OP (Is Jesus Deity?) based on opinion or ideological preferences then I think we can simply agree to disagree.
On the other hand, if we are dealing if Scripture (and we are) then defining that scripture and defining our method of understanding and interpreting that scripture is of big importance for us to understand each other. Anyone can claim that the Scriptures say XYZ about Jesus (or any other issue) but how does one go about showing evidence of his/her claims about Scripture to others? I would answer through the use of exegesis and logically presented arguments.
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@Mitchell said:
If we were trying to answer the question of the OP (Is Jesus Deity?) based on opinion or ideological preferences then I think we can simply agree to disagree.On the other hand, if we are dealing if Scripture (and we are) then defining that scripture and defining our method of understanding and interpreting that scripture is of big importance for us to understand each other. Anyone can claim that the Scriptures say XYZ about Jesus (or any other issue) but how does one go about showing evidence of his/her claims about Scripture to others? I would answer through the use of exegesis and logically presented arguments.
This is the basic problem. There are too many in this forum who will not accept the inspiration of the Bible and its truth, as authority over human opinions and rationales. Failure to accept the Bible as authority to settle all matters of God, we will be ever writing and counter challenging, but not going anywhere; like a lab mouse, on a treadwheel. Sad! CM
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@C_M_ said:
This is the basic problem. There are too many in this forum who will not accept the inspiration of the Bible and its truth, as authority over human opinions and rationales.How so? Who here on this forum will not accept the inspiration of the Bible and its truth?
Failure to accept the Bible as authority to settle all matters of God, we will be ever writing and counter challenging, but not going anywhere; like a lab mouse, on a treadwheel. Sad! CM
Indeed ... who on this forum fails to accept the Bible as authority to settle all matters of God?
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Was Jesus Deity?
Peter says: “and you killed the Creator of Life, whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.” (Acts 3:15)
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@Dave_L said:
Was Jesus Deity?
Peter says: “and you killed the Creator of Life, whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.” (Acts 3:15)You are quoting a somewhat at best unusual translation ("Creator of Life") of these words of Peter.
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant?? -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Was Jesus Deity?
Peter says: “and you killed the Creator of Life, whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.” (Acts 3:15)You are quoting a somewhat at best unusual translation ("Creator of Life") of these words of Peter.
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant??ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ creator, author etc.
③ one who begins or originates, hence the recipient of special esteem in the Gr-Rom. world, originator, founder
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 138). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
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@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
You are quoting a somewhat at best unusual translation ("Creator of Life") of these words of Peter.
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant??ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ creator, author etc.
③ one who begins or originates, hence the recipient of special esteem in the Gr-Rom. world, originator, founderArndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 138). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
And your answers to those questions I asked (quoted above) would be?
Perhaps another question for clarification needs to be added: What "life" is meant in the expression "Creator/Author of life" ?I'd appreciate if you would actually answer the questions ...
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
You are quoting a somewhat at best unusual translation ("Creator of Life") of these words of Peter.
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant??ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ creator, author etc.
③ one who begins or originates, hence the recipient of special esteem in the Gr-Rom. world, originator, founderArndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 138). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
And your answers to those questions I asked (quoted above) would be?
Perhaps another question for clarification needs to be added: What "life" is meant in the expression "Creator/Author of life" ?I'd appreciate if you would actually answer the questions ...
All of your above questions depend on how you view Christ. My view is that He is God the creator of all in Spirit (the part of him that says "I", "me"). And being God, His Spirit cannot die. And His mind or soul, the seat of memory and appetite is perfectly and incorruptibly human, born of the virgin without Adam's inherited curse. And his body also is perfectly and incorruptibly human. Being without sin.
So by this, you can see how I answer each question.
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@Bill_Coley for one...
Failure to accept the Bible as authority to settle all matters of God, we will be ever writing and counter challenging, but not going anywhere; like a lab mouse, on a treadwheel. Sad! CM
Indeed ... who on this forum fails to accept the Bible as authority to settle all matters of God?
@Bill_Coley for one....
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Was Jesus Deity?
Peter says: “and you killed the Creator of Life, whom God has raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.” (Acts 3:15)You are quoting a somewhat at best unusual translation ("Creator of Life") of these words of Peter.
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant??If they are saying the Originator of life, that's God. John 1 says God. Not hard to find if you simply read Scripture.
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@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant??...
And your answers to those questions I asked (quoted above) would be?
Perhaps another question for clarification needs to be added: What "life" is meant in the expression "Creator/Author of life" ?I'd appreciate if you would actually answer the questions ...
All of your above questions depend on how you view Christ. My view is that He is God the creator of all in Spirit (the part of him that says "I", "me"). And being God, His Spirit cannot die. And His mind or soul, the seat of memory and appetite is perfectly and incorruptibly human, born of the virgin without Adam's inherited curse. And his body also is perfectly and incorruptibly human. Being without sin.
So by this, you can see how I answer each question.
I have no clue how your condensed sermon answers the questions I asked ... evading as your manner is ... very frustrating for anyone who is actually interested in a proper exchange and discussion.
If you were honest, you would have written a simple statement, such as
"I am not willing to answer your questions " -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
So, the Jews actually killed God/Deity/the "Creator" of Life?
Also, which God then raised the "Creator" of Life from the dead?
Since Peter claimed that he and the apostles were witnesses ... where can we read that they even once stated that Jesus was God (Deity) ??
In v.13 Peter states that Jesus was God's servant ... The Deity/God/Creator was God's (His own) servant??...
And your answers to those questions I asked (quoted above) would be?
Perhaps another question for clarification needs to be added: What "life" is meant in the expression "Creator/Author of life" ?I'd appreciate if you would actually answer the questions ...
All of your above questions depend on how you view Christ. My view is that He is God the creator of all in Spirit (the part of him that says "I", "me"). And being God, His Spirit cannot die. And His mind or soul, the seat of memory and appetite is perfectly and incorruptibly human, born of the virgin without Adam's inherited curse. And his body also is perfectly and incorruptibly human. Being without sin.
So by this, you can see how I answer each question.
I have no clue how your condensed sermon answers the questions I asked ... evading as your manner is ... very frustrating for anyone who is actually interested in a proper exchange and discussion.
If you were honest, you would have written a simple statement, such as
"I am not willing to answer your questions "If you ask how God can die, I already answered he cannot.
If you ask if Jesus is God how can He then die? I answered that he also had a human body and soul that died but his Spirit (God) did not.
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@C_M_ said:
Thanks for sharing. You always give meaty responses and then some. Blessings, upon you.For some reason, I did not see this post till now? Well, better late than never. Thank you again for the feedback.
@C_M_ said:
It's always nice to consider the source. The pesty little reality of presuppositions stands >over all translations and theologies as a mother hen over her chicks.That is the truth!
And, that, in my opinion, is also part of the reason it is very difficult to say on topic on a number of the threads. Sometimes rather than dealing with Scripture people are actually only dealing with their theologies and ideologies. That is not to say that have a theology is wrong. -
@Mitchell said:
And, that, in my opinion, is also part of the reason it is very difficult to say on topic on a number of the threads. Sometimes rather than dealing with Scripture people are actually only dealing with their theologies and ideologies. That is not to say that have a theology is wrong.Indeed ... I would add that at times certain theologies are essentially regarded as being Scripture or a summary of Scripture etc., and contradictions to actual Scripture are then done away with as not really being contradictions etc.
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Is Jesus Deity? Notice that Jesus says he will raise his body from the dead. And Peter says God raised him from the dead.
“Jesus replied, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”” (John 2:19)
“But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:21)
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” (Acts 5:30)
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@Wolfgang said:
@Mitchell said:
And, that, in my opinion, is also part of the reason it is very difficult to say on topic on a number of the threads. Sometimes rather than dealing with Scripture people are actually only dealing with their theologies and ideologies. That is not to say that have a theology is wrong.Indeed ... I would add that at times certain theologies are essentially regarded as being Scripture or a summary of Scripture etc., and contradictions to actual Scripture are then done away with as not really being contradictions etc.
And this isn't one of them.
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@Dave_L said:
Is Jesus Deity? Notice that Jesus says he will raise his body from the dead. And Peter says God raised him from the dead.“Jesus replied, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”” (John 2:19)
“But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:21)
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” (Acts 5:30)
This is correct. @Wolfgang if Jesus claimed he would raise his body and is not God then that makes Jesus a liar and therefore could not pay for our sins.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
“Jesus replied, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”” (John 2:19)
“But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:21)
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” (Acts 5:30)This is correct. @Wolfgang if Jesus claimed he would raise his body and is not God then that makes Jesus a liar and therefore could not pay for our sins.
Really ? How come Acts 5:30 declares that NOT Jesus raised himself up, but rather "the God of our fathers" raised up Jesus ??? By, the way, numerous other verses declare the same, that it was NOT Jesus, but rather God (Whom Jesus said was his Father and of Whom Jesus said, that He (Jesus' Father) alone was true God ...
I would suggest to understand the one seemingly difficult verse (Joh 2:19) in light of the many clear verses (such as Acts 5:30, Rom 10:9,10. etc.) ... and NOT make a theology and dogma out of one verse which is misunderstood
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@Wolfgang said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
“Jesus replied, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”” (John 2:19)
“But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:21)
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” (Acts 5:30)This is correct. @Wolfgang if Jesus claimed he would raise his body and is not God then that makes Jesus a liar and therefore could not pay for our sins.
Really ? How come Acts 5:30 declares that NOT Jesus raised himself up, but rather "the God of our fathers" raised up Jesus ??? By, the way, numerous other verses declare the same, that it was NOT Jesus, but rather God (Whom Jesus said was his Father and of Whom Jesus said, that He (Jesus' Father) alone was true God ...
I would suggest to understand the one seemingly difficult verse (Joh 2:19) in light of the many clear verses (such as Acts 5:30, Rom 10:9,10. etc.) ... and NOT make a theology and dogma out of one verse which is misunderstood
The problem is that you cannot confess Jesus as the Lord (Greek Kurios) if you do not believe he is. Lord (Kurios) = God. Used by the LXX for YHWH hundreds of times.
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@Wolfgang said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
“Jesus replied, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”” (John 2:19)
“But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:21)
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” (Acts 5:30)This is correct. @Wolfgang if Jesus claimed he would raise his body and is not God then that makes Jesus a liar and therefore could not pay for our sins.
Really ? How come Acts 5:30 declares that NOT Jesus raised himself up, but rather "the God of our fathers" raised up Jesus ??? By, the way, numerous other verses declare the same, that it was NOT Jesus, but rather God (Whom Jesus said was his Father and of Whom Jesus said, that He (Jesus' Father) alone was true God ...
I would suggest to understand the one seemingly difficult verse (Joh 2:19) in light of the many clear verses (such as Acts 5:30, Rom 10:9,10. etc.) ... and NOT make a theology and dogma out of one verse which is misunderstood
It's not misunderstood. Jesus is God, therefore he did not lie.
How do you reconcile John 2:19 if Jesus is not God?
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Wolfgang said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
“Jesus replied, “Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again.”” (John 2:19)
“But he spake of the temple of his body.” (John 2:21)
“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.” (Acts 5:30)This is correct. @Wolfgang if Jesus claimed he would raise his body and is not God then that makes Jesus a liar and therefore could not pay for our sins.
Really ? How come Acts 5:30 declares that NOT Jesus raised himself up, but rather "the God of our fathers" raised up Jesus ??? By, the way, numerous other verses declare the same, that it was NOT Jesus, but rather God (Whom Jesus said was his Father and of Whom Jesus said, that He (Jesus' Father) alone was true God ...
I would suggest to understand the one seemingly difficult verse (Joh 2:19) in light of the many clear verses (such as Acts 5:30, Rom 10:9,10. etc.) ... and NOT make a theology and dogma out of one verse which is misunderstood
It's not misunderstood. Jesus is God, therefore he did not lie.
How do you reconcile John 2:19 if Jesus is not God?
But you must address a similar question, David: How do YOU reconcile Acts 5.30? If Jesus (God) raised himself, why do Peter and the apostles tell the council that the God of their ancestors raised Jesus? Why is there NO suggestion of Jesus' involvement in his own resurrection in the apostles' word to the council?
And if Jesus raised himself, how do YOU reconcile Acts 2.24, Acts 2.32, Acts 3.15, Acts 3.26, Acts 4.10, Acts 10.40, Acts 13.30, Acts 13.37, Romans 4.24-25, Romans 8.11, Romans 10.9, 1 Corinthians 6.14, 1 Corinthians 15.15, Galatians 1.1, Colossians 2.12, Hebrews 11.19, 1 Peter 1.21, and many others?
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