Searching Discussion

Follow-up to An update on my Bible study group's Christology study is this "Searching Discussion" that may become quite verbose.

@Searching May 29 I think I owe you a little more than I wrote yesterday so... I stated I'm a former witness, but that may not be completely true since I was not disfellowshipped but just quit going to meetings over 40 years ago. I have found that vast majority of people that left were disfellowshipped or knew they were going to be for various reasons. When I left there were a number of things I was discouraged about, but nothing doctrinally. To explain it in detail would take a couple pages. I did go back a few years ago for a few months but found it different than what I remembered. When I was attending meetings about 60% of the congregation I was in were in their 20's. Vibrant, full of energy, and we had a lot of fellowship with each other, but the congregation I went to were about 70% old folks, like me, and I never felt at home there. Maybe it was because they knew I had not attended for 40 years and were suspicious. If so I don't blame them. I now find it hard to believe they are the "only ones" if you know what I mean.

Thank you for sharing. My journey toward Being Holy as God is Holy has felt like a roller coaster ride having many ups & downs with magnificent Holy Highs intermixed with discouraging/depressing down times.

Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) published 2022 American survey results on 16 May 2023 => Religion and Congregations in a Time of Social and Political Upheaval that includes 56 % of All Americans attending religious services at least a few times a year in 2013 dropped to 43 % in 2022. Also "In 2022, about one in four Americans (24 %) say they were previously a follower or practioner of a different religious tradition or denomination than the one they belong to now, up from 16 % in 2021."

@Searching May 29 I have attended many churches over the years from Pentecostal to Baptist. Some for a number of years. Some had great speakers, one in particular had a great pastor and a couple had great music that could move you, but I always found them lacking in the truth. Every once in a while I will go on a site such as this to see if I can find someone that can refute their teachings of the trinity, hell, Jesus bodily resurrection, etc., but to no avail. Each time I do I'm always more convinced in the Witness teaching than before. Yet, I know the everything about them, so I know they're not perfect in their teaching. I'm in quite a quandary and have been for many years.

What are Watchtower Society teaching fallacies ?

Watchtower Society teaching of Jesus = Michael the Archangel is puzzling/perplexing to me. My understanding is Watchtower Society teaching that Michael's life force was transferred into the human baby of Jesus. Electricity description of life force says nothing identifiable as Michael went into the human body of Jesus. Hence, the Watchtower Society teaching of Jesus = Michael the Archangel makes no sense to me: no reason to believe that an Archangel became Jesus. Related puzzle is what happened to Archangel Michael when life force was transferred. Does Michael the Archangel have pre-Jesus & post-Jesus incarnations ?

To me, Watchtower Society teaching has two deities: God the Father & a god Michael the Archangel (as the man Jesus).

The name "Michael" means "Who is like God ?" that is different than words of Jesus in John 17, who experienced being by the glorious side of God the Father & Loved before the foundation of the world.

John 17:1-26 LEB  (with Hebrew word usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: אלהים as God) =>

Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you — just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them — everyone whom you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true אלהים God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have glorified you on earth by completing the work that you have given me to do. And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they understand that all the things that you have given me are from you, because the words that you gave to me I have given to them, and they received them and know truly that I have come from you, and they have believed that you have sent me. I am asking on behalf of them. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you have given me, because they are yours, and all my things are yours, and your things are mine, and I have been glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. When I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given to me, and guarded them, and none of them has perished except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture would be fulfilled. And now I am coming to you, and I am saying these things in the world so that they may have my joy completed in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth — your word is truth. Just as you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them I sanctify myself, so that they themselves also may be sanctified in the truth. “And I do not ask on behalf of these only, but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one, just as you, Father, are in me and I am in you, that they also may be in us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me. And the glory that you have given to me, I have given to them, in order that they may be one, just as we are one — I in them, and you in me, in order that they may be completed in one, so that the world may know that you sent me, and you have loved them just as you have loved me. “Father, those whom you have given to me — I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. Righteous Father, although the world does not know you, yet I have known you, and these men have come to know that you sent me. And I made known to them your name, and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I may be in them.”

Did יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus ever speak an untruthful word, which would make יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus & "the only true אלהים God" a liar ?

Who gives eternal life ? What hope can the human Watchtower Society organization give ?

What is אלהים God's Glory (John 17:5) & אלהים God's ❤️ Love (John 17:24) that יהוה Lord Jesus Christ experienced before Holy אלהים God created physical realm ?

What joy does יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus have that can be completed in believers & followers of יֵשׁוּעַ Jesus ?

Request to keep them in your name is truly consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB => “Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’

Hebrew noun (construct spelling => of) for righteousness has pronoun, suffixed, 1st person, plural whose literal translation is: 'יהוה Yahweh righteousness of We'

@Searching May 29 I think the Bible shows that there are not many roads leading to the same place, which seems to me what you are saying. The Bible says in 1 Corinthians 1:10 "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought." In John 17:20-23 Jesus said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Philippians2:2 says fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Does this sound like the 30,000 denominations of Christendom? Paul wrote this in Acts 2:9,30 "I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them."

Our spiritual adversary, the father of lies, is a master manipulator who wants to disrupt any human loving Holy God individually and corporately (so savage wolves rage in many places).

@Searching May 29 I think if we would go back to the 1st century Christians and see what they did, and believed it would look quite different than what we see in the church today. "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father (not 3)

Revelation chapters 2 & 3 have seven letters for Christian Churches, who had a variety of issues.

Logos Bible Search looking for English glosses in SBL Greek New Testament is: (syntax also usable in Web App)

(judgment OR division OR infants OR jealousy OR body) IN milestone:bible:1Co

Search results in Paul's letter to 1st Corinthians shows divisions in 1st Century.

To me lawlessness increasing worldwide has more divisions currently in lots of groups.

Sheep stink: they do not clean themselves & cannot drink from moving water. Jesus said: "I AM the Good Shepherd" who truly knows how each person (including me) stinks along with Holy ability to forgive sins against Holy God & cleanse from unrighteousness. Only requirement for cleansing is believing Jesus offered His Holy human body as a sacrifice for my sins (instead of me & every human) and agree with Holy God about my sin stink with my sincere desire to turn from my sin to Be Holy as God is Holy so Jesus has become my Lord God. To me, Jesus is one voice in unique Holy God.

Keep Smiling 😊


  • @Searching June 2 And I pretty sure the only celebration they observed was the last supper. No Christmas, birthdays, etc. There is so much.

    Books Search in my Logos library for first NEAR christmas NEAR celebration found results in 156 resources, which include:

    2714 Early Christmas Happenings

    Christmas was first celebrated in the year 98, but it was forty years later before it was officially adopted as a Christian festival: nor was it until about the fifth century that the day of its celebration became permanently fixed on the 25th of December. Up to that time it had been irregularly observed at various times of the year—in December, in April, and in May, but most frequently in January.

    Clovis, the first Christian King of France, was baptized on Christmas Day, 496. Gilles de Retz, of France, the original “Bluebeard,” was executed on Christmas Day, 1440, in atonement for a multitude of crimes, which included the killing of six wives, from which the popular nursery story is derived. The Pilgrim Fathers, who condemned all church festivals, spent their first Christmas in America working hard all day long amid cold and stormy weather, and commenced the building of the first house in Plymouth 1620.

    It is a significant fact that no great battles were fought on Christmas Day. They have occurred on the 24th and 26th of December, but the anniversary of the advent of Peace on Earth has ever been observed by a cessation of hostilities.

    In history Christmas has been a very remarkable day. It was on Christmas Day that Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Holy Empire in the Cathedral of Aix-la-Chapelie. On Christmas Day, in the year 1066, William the Conqueror was crowned King of England in Westminster Abbey.

    —Current Anecdotes

    2715 Son-Light

    Back in A.D. 274 an emperor of the Old Roman world chose December 25 as “the birthday of the unconquered sun.” He recognized that at this midwinter date it reaches its lowest point in the Southern sky and begins its gradual movement northward again. The annual rebirth of nature was closely linked to the Romans’ new year and planting season. Houses were decorated with greenery and candles, and presents were given to children and the poor. In time, Christians made this a holy day of their own. By A.D. 336, the church had decided that all believers should celebrate the birthday of the Lord Jesus, the Son of righteousness on December 25.

    —M. R. De Haan II

     Paul Lee Tan, Encyclopedia of 7700 Illustrations: Signs of the Times (Garland, TX: Bible Communications, Inc., 1996), 655–656.

    My apologies for not knowing where in the world for Christmas celebration in year 98.

    Books Search in my Logos library for winter NEAR solstice NEAR (celebration OR tradition) found resuits in 102 resources, which included a Christmas entry:

    Christmas. The day observed by Christians in commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ. The Scriptures do not reveal the exact date of Christ’s birth, and the earliest Christians had no fixed time for observing it. However, by the late fourth century Christmas was generally celebrated in the churches, although on differing dates in different locales. Various methods were used in an attempt to compute the day of Christ’s birth; among dates suggested by early churchmen were January 6, April 18, April 19, May 20, and according to Hippolytus (ca. 170–ca. 236), in his Commentary on Daniel, “Our Lord was born on Wednesday, December 25, in the 42nd year (2 b.c.) of the reign of Augustus.” December 25 eventually became the officially recognized date for Christmas because it coincided with the pagan festivals celebrating Saturnalia and the winter solstice. The church thereby offered the people a Christian alternative to the pagan festivities and eventually reinterpreted many of their symbols and actions in ways acceptable to Christian faith and practice. For example, Jesus Christ was presented as the Sun of Righteousness (Mal. 4:2), replacing the sun god, Sol Invictus. As Christianity spread throughout Europe, it assimilated into its observances many customs of the pagan winter festivals such as holly, mistletoe, the Christmas tree, and log fires. At the same time new Christmas customs such as the nativity crib and the singing of carols were introduced by Christians.

    In every period of Christian history the observance of Christmas has been opposed by a minority of Christian leaders. Usually one or more of three factors have been involved in this opposition: (1) a rejection of ecclesiastical authority in its attempt to establish official feast days, of which Christmas is one; (2) an objection to the drinking, partying, and immorality associated in every age with Christmas festivities; (3) the long-standing and continuing associations of Christmas with pagan religious ideas and practices. Some Protestants, especially those in the Calvinistic tradition—including Calvin himself, Knox, the English and American Puritans, and many Presbyterians—refused to celebrate Christmas. However, the Lutherans, the continental Reformers, and most other Protestants defended the observance of Christmas and sought to emphasize its deeper truth expressed in the doctrine of the incarnation. By the midtwentieth century Christmas had come to be observed almost universally in some form or another by Christians throughout the world. With the expansion of Christianity into the cultures of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, many new customs and ideas were incorporated into the Christian celebration of Christmas.

    O. G. Oliver Jr.

    See also Christian Year.

    Bibliography. L. W. Cowie and J. S. Gummer, Christian Calendar; O. Cullmann, “Origin of Christmas,” in Early Church; A. A. McArthur, Evolution of the Christian Year; P. Schaff, History of the Christian Church; T. J. Talley, Origins of the Liturgical Year.

     Walter A. Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology: Second Edition (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2001), 238–239.

    My research has year 2 b.c. agreement with Hippolytus, but my date is 25 Elul 3759 (25 August 2 BCE), three months earlier. Logos Blog has an article => The Shepherds at Jesus’ Birth and the Geography of Bethlehem

    Jewish website has Jewish History about 25 Elul:

    Creation (3760 BCE)

    The 1st day of creation, on which G-d created existencetimematterdarkness and light, was the 25th of Elul. (Rosh Hashanah, on which we mark "the beginning of Your works", is actually the 6th day of creation, on which the world attained the potential for the realization of its purpose, with the creation of the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. Rosh Hashanah is therefore the day from which the Jewish calendar begins to count the years of history; the 1st day of creation thus occurred on the 25th of Elul of what is termed -1 from creation.

    Links: Parshah Bereishit (Genesis 1:1-6:8) with commentary

    God said: "Let there be light!" on 25 Elul.

    John 8:12 LEB => Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

    John 9:5 LEB => While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    To me, human birth of יהוה Salvation (Yeshua) on Monday 25 Elul 3759 (25 August 2 BCE) was followed by conjunction of four planets visible in the Eastern morning twilight before sunrise on Tuesday 26 Elul 3759. From Sunday 1 Tevet 3759 (8 December 3 BCE, Hannukkah 7th day) to Monday 25 Elul 3759 (25 August 2 BCE) is 37.3 weeks, which is feasible with average human gestation being 38 weeks.

    In the Jewish Temple, 24 priestly orders changed duties on the weekly Sabbath. Angel appearing to Zecharias “Remembered of YHVH” on 1 Av 3758 (13 July 3 BCE) a few hours before going home to Elisabeth “Oath of God”), is six months (Av, Elul, Tishri, Heshvan, Kislev, Tevet) prior to Angelic announcement to Mary, Miriam “their rebellion”

    My date calculation for weekly priestly order change used Babyloinan Calendar Converter (626 BCE to 75 CE) based on Babylon Chronology published by Parker and Dubberstein in 1971 AD.

    Catholic article Date of the Birth of Christ includes:

    Also, on Dec. 25 of 2 B.C., Jupiter stopped for 6 days over Bethlehem. This is a normal motion for Jupiter, it stops twice, and reverses its seeming movement. This may have been the very time the Magi came with their gifts. This was also the time of the Hanukkah festival, during which it was customary for Jewish Fathers to give gifts to their children.

    Hanukkak Light (one day's amount of oil miraculously burned for eight days) = Festival of Dedication mentioned in John 10:22

    Bible Search for birthday in All Bibles found Pharaoh (Genesis 40:20), King (2 Maccabees 6:7), and Herod (Matthew 14:6 & Mark 6:21). New Living Translation has twentieth birthday in Exodus 30:14 & Exodus 38:26

    1 Corinthians 11:17-34 LEB (with Hebrew words usually translated by Jewish scholars in LXX: יהוה as Lord & אלהים as God) =>

    But in giving this instruction I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. For in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. Therefore, when you come together in the same place, it is not to eat the יהוה Lord’s supper. For when you eat it, each one of you goes ahead to take his own supper, and one is hungry and another is drunk. For do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the church of אלהים God and humiliate those who do not have anything? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you! For I received from the יהוה Lord what I also passed on to you, that the יהוה Lord Jesus, on the night in which he was betrayed, took bread, and after he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” Likewise also the cup, after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the יהוה Lord’s death until he comes. So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the יהוה Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and the blood of the יהוה Lord. But let a person examine himself, and in this way let him eat from the bread and let him drink from the cup. For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died. But if we were evaluating ourselves, we would not be judged. But if we are judged by the יהוה Lord, we are being disciplined, in order that we will not be condemned with the world. So then, my brothers, when you come together in order to eat the יהוה Lord’s supper, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And I will give directions about the remaining matters whenever I come.

    Foxe's Book of Martyrs describes deaths of disciples in a variety of places in the 1st Century (prior to 75 AD) with the miraculous exception of Saint John. Humanly wonder what was common in church communities (❤️ יהוה Lord Jesus) while also wondering about variety of differences & divisions.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jun 3 My research has year 2 b.c. agreement with Hippolytus, but my date is 25 Elul 3759 (25 August 2 BCE), three months earlier.

    My apologies for "three months earlier" mistake 😔, which I realized too late to edit. Western culture counting is "four months earlier (122 days) while counting at the time of Jesus was "five months": August, September, October, November, December.

    Books Search in my Logos library for winter NEAR solstice NEAR (celebration OR tradition) found resuits in 102 resources, while also included:

    Yuletide has been held as a sacred festival by numberless nations.

    Christians hold December 25th as the anniversary of the birth of Jesus.

    China on the same day celebrates the birth of Buddha, son of Mâya. (Bunsen.)

    Druids held during the winter solstice the festival of Nolagh. (Higgins.)

    Egypt held that Horus, son of Isis, was born towards the close of December. (Le Clerk de Septehenes.)

    Greece celebrated in the winter solstice the birth of Demēter (Ceres), Dionȳsos (Bacchus), and Heraklēs (Hercules).

    India. Numerous Indian tribes keep Yuletide as a religious festival. (Monier Williams.)

    Mexico holds in the winter solstice the festival of Capacrame. (History of the Indies, vol. ii. p. 354.)

    Persia at the same period honours the birth of Mithras. (Gross.)

    Rome celebrated on December 25th the festival “Natālis Solis Invicta.”

    Scandinavia held at Yuletide the festival called Jul, in honour of Freya, son of Odin.

     E. Cobham Brewer, ed., Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (London; Paris; Melbourne: Cassell and Company, Limited, 1895), 1321.

    Different world cultures have various holidays, which were encountered by disciples fulfilling the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 LEB => And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.

    Books Search in my Logos library for winter NEAR solstice NEAR (celebration OR tradition) also found Ḥanukkah information:

    ḤANUKKAH: The Feast of Dedication, also called “Feast of the Maccabees,” celebrated during eight days from the twenty-fifth day of Kislew (December), chiefly as a festival of lights. It was instituted by Judas Maccabeus, his brothers, and the elders of the congregation of Israel, in the year 165 b.c., to be celebrated annually with mirth and joy as a memorial of the dedication of the altar (1 Macc. 4:59) or of the purification of the sanctuary (2 Macc. 1:18). Three years earlier, on the same day, Antiochus Epiphanes had caused a pagan altar to be set up at the altar of burnt offerings in the Temple at Jerusalem, and sacrifices to be offered to his idol (1 Macc. 1:41–64; 2 Macc. 6:2). The idol called “Zeus Olympius” was probably also called “Ba‘al Shamayim,” of which שקוץ שמם seems to be a cacophemy (Dan. 11:31, 12:11; 1 Macc. 1:54; see Hoffmann, “Ueber Einige Phönizische Inschriften,” 1889, p. 29).

    After having recovered the Holy City and the Temple, Judas ordered the latter to be cleansed, a new altar to be built in place of the one polluted, and new holy vessels to be made. When the fire had been kindled anew upon the altar and the lamp’s of the candlestick lit, the dedication of the altar was celebrated for eight days amid sacrifices and songs (1 Macc. 4:36), similarly to the Feast of Tabernacles (2 Macc. 10:6; comp. ib. 1:9), which also lasts for eight days, and at which during the Second Temple (Suk. v. 2–4) the lighting of lamps and torches formed a prominent part. Lights were also kindled in the household, and the popular name of the festival was, therefore, according to Josephus (“Ant.” xii. 7, § 7), Φῶτα = “Festival of Lights.”

    Supposed Origin

    In the Talmud it is principally known as the “Feast of Illumination,” and it was usual either to display eight lamps on the first night of the festival, and to reduce the number on each successive night, or to begin with one lamp the first night, increasing the number till the eighth night. The Shammaites, usually representatives of the older traditions, favored the former custom; the Hillelites advocated the latter (Shab. 21b). Josephus thinks that the lights were symbolical of the liberty obtained by the Jews on the day of which Ḥanukkah is the celebration. The Talmudic sources (Meg. eodem; Meg. Ta‘an. 23; comp. the different version, Pes. R. 2) ascribe the origin of the eight days’ festival, with its custom of illuminating the houses, to the miracle said to have occurred at the dedication of the purified Temple. This was that the one small cruse of consecrated oil found unpolluted by the Hasmonean priests when they entered the Temple, it having been sealed and hidden away, lasted for eight days until new oil could be prepared for the lamps of the holy candlestick. A legend similar in character, and obviously older in date, is that alluded to in 2 Macc. 1:18 et seq., according to which the relighting of the altar-fire by Nehemiah was due to a miracle which occurred on the twenty-fifth of Kislew, and which appears to be given as the reason for the selection of the same date for the rededication of the altar by Judas Maccabeus (comp. Ḥag. iii. 10, 18, 20; Num. R. xiii. 4).

    The actual reason for the selection of the twenty-fifth of Kislew by Judas Maccabeus for the dedication of the altar is stated to have been, as mentioned above, that on the very same day three years earlier Antiochus Epiphanes had a pagan altar set up at the altar of burnt offerings in the Temple of Jerusalem and sacrifices offered to his idol (1 Macc. 1:41–64; comp. 2 Macc. 6:2, where the heathen god is called “Zeus Olympius”). The twenty-fifth of Kislew was accordingly a day sacred also to the heathen before it became a Jewish festival. According to Ewald (“Gesch. des Volkes Israel,” 3d ed., iv. 407) and Wellhausen (“Israelitische und Jüdische Gesch.” p. 210; comp. Paulus Cassel, “Weihnachten,” pp. 57, 97, and p. lii., notes), it had been celebrated as the winter solstice feast by the Jewish people before it became a historical festival associated with the great, Maccabean victory. Regarding the historical data connected with the Ḥanukkah feast see Maccabees; Maccabees, Books of.

     Isidore Singer, ed., The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History, Religion, Literature, and Customs of the Jewish People from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 12 Volumes (New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls, 1901–1906), 223–224.

    23 December 2019 = 25 Kislev 5780 so Ḥanukkah celebration at times overlaps Christmas while other years has Ḥanukkah starting almost a month earlier: e.g. 29 November 2021 = 25 Kislev 5782.

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • Searching
    Searching Posts: 24
    edited June 2023

    As far a Jesus being Michael before he came to earth I'll give it to you the best I can as I remember. Michael is called the archangel in Jude 1:9 which indicates he was the top dog so to speak in heaven, with the exception to God himself. When Jesus returns he is said to have the voice of the archangel in 1Thessalonians 4:16, which seems to indicate that he was the archangel. In the first few verses of Daniel 12 it says Michael the great prince will stand up in behalf of God's people, etc. These verses seem to parallel 1 Thessalonians.  “Michael and his angels battled with the dragon,” Satan in Rev. 12:7. Then in Revelation 19:11-16 Jesus strikes down all of God’s enemies to protect God’s people. These 2 places in Revelation seem to parallel each other and also Daniel 12. Hence, Jesus is seen to be Michael since he has Michael's voice and preforms the same duties as Michael. I'm sure I've forgotten something??

    The Watchtower doesn't believe in two Gods. Only on God Jehovah. They do not believe that either Jesus/Michael (one in the same) or the Holy Spirit are God. Now that you mentioned John 17, in verse 3 Jesus said that his Father was the only true God, so I guess that would eliminate Jesus/Michael, HS, or anyone else. Even when Jesus is in heaven and all things are put under his feet, it is with the exception of his Father so the son is also in subjection to God who is all in all. One God and one son of God. Not God the son.

    Post edited by Searching on
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