The trinity and it’s false theology.

Brother RandoBrother Rando Posts: 675
edited December 2021 in Biblical Studies

The trinity and it’s false theology.

You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It omits Christ from its doctrine and promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is not found in Any Bible. Trinitarians profess that John 1:1 explains their theology of ‘three separate persons ’. It does not. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who will deny and oppose the teachings of Jesus Christ.


Trinitarians proclaim Jesus is co-equal to his God while Jesus himself proclaims "the Father is Greater than I am." (John 14:28) When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ under the inspiration of Holy Spirit somehow mis-spoken because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate Persons which is never cited in any scripture.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know You, the only true God” Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity of three separate persons?


Trinitarians proclaim Jesus was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity to be a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)


As Jesus continue his teachings about God, he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship HIM.” (John 4:23)


According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made Your Name Manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let Your Name be sanctified.” 


If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a Generic Formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus Christ. When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and the Son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose Son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?


Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of Christ and refuses to acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)


In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like the number 666.   “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15

 

The trinity is the Biggest Occult ever, with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves like God in know good and bad, and others have to bend their knee to their superiority.  (Read 2 Timothy 3:1-5)


“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26) Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.

Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.

Comments

  • Death for Doubting the Trinity

    When an article in The Watchtower not long ago stated that persons were put to death for doubting the trinity more than one reader inquired about this. Of course, medieval history tells of countless thousands of Jews being put to death for refusing to accept the trinity. And especially noted is the case of Servetus, whom Calvin had slowly roasted to death at the stake for his denial of the trinity.

    ” Yes, there was a time on the American continent, not just in medieval Europe, when to deny the trinity meant death."

    Trintarians falsely teach that you must bevlieve in the trinity for salvation, the same ones who oppose Jesus as "the Christ the son of the living God." (Matthew 16:16) Learn more about the fate of Christians who refused to worship the trinity and take on the number 666.

    They Valued the Bible Video

    https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODBibleTranslations/docid-502017151_1_VIDEO

    Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.

  • PagesPages Posts: 130
    edited December 2021

    @BroRando

    Trinitarians proclaim Jesus is co-equal to his God while Jesus himself proclaims "the Father is Greater than I am."

    Confusion of categories in this statement. "Greater" in this context is one of function, not that of ontology

    A father is greater in his functional status than a son; however, the functional status of the father does not imply that a son is any less equal by his function.

  • @Pages Confusion of categories in this statement. "Greater" in this context is one of function, not that of ontology

    A father is greater in his functional status than a son; however, the functional status of the father does not imply that a son is any less equal by his function.

    Trintarians reject the words of Jesus Christ when he stated, "the Father is Greater than I am." They claim Greater doesn't mean Greater. Why, because it exposes the trinity has a fraud.

    Antichrists have become particularly active during “the last days,” the time in which we now live. (2 Timothy 3:1) A key objective of these modern-day deceivers is to mislead people in regard to Jesus’ role as King of God’s Kingdom, a heavenly government that will soon rule over the entire earth.​—Daniel 7:13, 14; Revelation 11:15.

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  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    Trintarians reject the words of Jesus Christ when he stated, "the Father is Greater than I am." They claim Greater doesn't mean Greater. Why, because it exposes the trinity has a fraud.

    The above response doesn't even begin to engage with the confusing of categories.

  • There is no such scripture stating that Jesus is co-equal which exposes your belief system is faulty.

    Visit JW.org to get Spiritual and Accurate Answers to Your Questions. Bible transliterated into over 120 languages.

  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    There is no such scripture stating that Jesus is co-equal which exposes your belief system is faulty.

    My original post, to which you have replied, simply pointed out the mistake of not recognizing that function is not an equivalent of essence.

    This statement you posted, "Trinitarians proclaim Jesus is co-equal to his God while Jesus himself proclaims "the Father is Greater than I am." demonstrates the category error I first described.

  • All the angels are of the essense of God.

    • "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)
    • Are they not all spirits for holy service, sent out to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation? (Heb 1:14)
    • Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. (Heb 5:8)
    • because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek. (Heb 5:10)
    • For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, (1 Tim 2:5)
    • And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

    Christ is a godlike sort, was given authority, was begotten twice, became a life giving spirit and is the Resurrection. "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thess 4:16)

    "During that time {Jesus Christ} will stand up, the Great Prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time.

    And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:1-2)

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  • TruthTruth Posts: 521

    @BroRando

    1. How many gods do JW’s actually have?
    2. Are fallen angels also JW gods?


  • Brother RandoBrother Rando Posts: 675
    edited December 2021

    Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father. The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase. “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)  

    The trinity omits the Name of Christ and refuses to acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)

    Of course the AntiChrist would deny that Jesus Christ has a God and Father and does His Father's Will. Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and Your Father and to My God and Your God." (John 20:17)


    Here's a partial list of the God and Father of Jesus Christ of 132 pages:

    • Philippians 4:20
    • Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
    • Ephesians 4:6
    • one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
    • Philippians 2:11
    • and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
    • 2 Corinthians 1:3
    • Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,
    • 2 Corinthians 11:31
    • The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, the One who is to be praised forever, knows I am not lying.
    • 2 Thessalonians 1:1
    • Paul, Sil·vaʹnus, and Timothy, to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
    • Ephesians 5:20
    • always giving thanks to our God and Father for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    • 2 Thessalonians 1:2
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Ephesians 6:23
    • May the brothers have peace and love with faith from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • 1 Corinthians 1:3
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • 2 Corinthians 1:2
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Galatians 1:3
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Ephesians 1:2
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Romans 15:6
    • so that unitedly you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Colossians 1:3
    • We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
    • Philippians 1:2
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • Philemon 1:3
    • May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    • 1 Thessalonians 3:11
    • Now may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus make a way for us to come to you.
    • Revelation 1:6
    • and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
    • 2 John 1:3
    • There will be with us undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, with truth and love.
    • Jude 1:1
    • Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ, but a brother of James, to the called ones who are loved by God the Father and preserved for Jesus Christ:
    • Colossians 3:17
    • Whatever it is that you do in word or in deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, thanking God the Father through him.
    • 1 Thessalonians 1:1
    • Paul, Sil·vaʹnus, and Timothy, to the congregation of the Thes·sa·loʹni·ans in union with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: May you have undeserved kindness and peace.
    • Colossians 1:2
    • to the holy ones and faithful brothers in union with Christ at Co·losʹsae: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father.
    • 2 Timothy 1:2
    • to Timothy, a beloved child: May you have undeserved kindness, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
    • Ephesians 1:3
    • Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,
    • 1 Timothy 1:2
    • to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: May you have undeserved kindness and mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
    • Galatians 1:1
    • Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead,
    • Galatians 1:4
    • He gave himself for our sins so that he might rescue us from the present wicked system of things according to the will of our God and Father,
    • 1 Peter 1:2
    • according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, with sanctification by the spirit, for the purpose of being obedient and sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ: May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to you.
    • 1 Corinthians 15:24
    • Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.
    • James 1:27
    • The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.
    • Titus 1:4
    • to Titus, a genuine child according to the faith we share: May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
    • 2 Thessalonians 2:16
    • Moreover, may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and gave everlasting comfort and good hope by means of undeserved kindness,
    • 1 Thessalonians 3:13
    • so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.
    • 1 Corinthians 8:6
    • there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

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  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    All the angels are of the essense of God.

    This statement demonstrates a great misuse of the term essence with regard to God. It has just been asserted that all angels are God – something, I'm certain is not in line with your actual beliefs.

  • "The Greek phrase is theos en ho logos, which translated word for word is "a god was the word." 


    Greek has only a definite article, like our the, it does not have an indefinite article, like our a or an. If a noun is definite, it has the definite article ho. If a noun is indefinite, no article is used. In the phrase from John 1:1ho logos is "the word." If it was written simply logos, without the definite article ho, we would have to translate it as "a word". So we are not really "inserting" an indefinite article when we translate Greek nouns without the definite article into English, we are simply obeying rules of English grammar that tell us that we cannot say "Snoopy is dog," but must say "Snoopy is a dog." 



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  • Dave_LDave_L Posts: 2,357

    Trinity Passages; can you spot the Trinity in each verse?

    English Standard Version 233 results in 42 verses

     

    Matt 1:20

    But as he considered these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary as your wife, for that which is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

    Matt 3:16

    And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;

    Matt 12:18

    “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

    Matt 12:28

    But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Matt 22:43

    He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

    Matt 28:19

    Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    Luke 1:35

    And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

    Luke 2:26

    And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

    Luke 3:22

    and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

    Luke 10:21

    In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

    John 1:33

    I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

    John 3:5

    Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    John 3:34

    For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.

    John 14:16

    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

    John 14:26

    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

    John 15:26

    “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

    John 16:15

    All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

    Acts 1:4

    And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;

    Acts 2:33

    Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

    Acts 7:55

    But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

    Acts 10:38

    how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

    Rom 1:4

    and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,

    Rom 8:9

    You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

    Rom 8:11

    If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

    Rom 15:16

    to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

    Rom 15:30

    I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,

    1 Cor 6:11

    And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    1 Cor 12:3

    Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

    2 Cor 3:3

    And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    2 Cor 13:14

    The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

    Gal 4:6

    And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

    Eph 2:18

    For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

    Eph 2:22

    In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

    Phil 3:3

    For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—

    2 Thess 2:13

    But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

    Titus 3:6

    whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

    Heb 9:14

    how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

    Heb 10:29

    How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

    1 Pet 1:2

    according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

    1 Pet 4:14

    If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.

    1 John 4:2

    By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

    Rev 2:7

    He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    If a noun is definite, it has the definite article ho. If a noun is indefinite, no article is used.

    In general, if there is an article, the article will be of the same gender, number, and case as the noun; and while the article does provide definiteness it is not a steadfast rule within Greek language that an anarthrous noun will always be indefinite. 

    Also, certain type of nouns having an article in Greek will most usually not have that article translated in English.

    Since the above statement is in particular reference to Jn. 1:1 and the use of the anarthrous θεὸς in the third clause, I have chosen four verses where θεὸς is used without the article.

    From the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (Study Edition)

    God is the One who declares them righteous. (Ro. 8:33)

    θεὸς ὁ δικαιῶν· God who justifies. 


    God is not one to be mocked. (Gal. 6:7)

    θεὸς οὐ μυκτηρίζεται God is not mocked.


    For God is the one... (Phil. 2:13)

    θεὸς γάρ ἐστιν  For it is God


    ...God is witness! (1 Th. 2:5)

    θεὸς μάρτυς God is witness.

    That a noun is without an article does not always mean the said noun is indefinite as the rendering of the four texts above demonstrate. It seems the NWT understands this point of Greek grammar; however, will arbitrarily choose to invoke their rule of indefiniteness to words as they please.

    I'll provide one quote below from a resource regarding lack of an article to finish with.

    IX. The Indefinite Article. The Greek had no indefinite article. It would have been very easy if the absence of the article in Greek always meant that the noun was indefinite, but we have seen that this is not the case. The anarthrous noun may per se be either definite or indefinite. (Robertson, A. T. (2006). A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (p. 796). Logos Bible Software.)

  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    So we are not really "inserting" an indefinite article when we translate Greek nouns without the definite article into English, we are simply obeying rules of English grammar that tell us that we cannot say "Snoopy is dog," but must say "Snoopy is a dog."

    Certainly sounds reasonable. I wonder if this very same reasoning might be applied to the Coptic language? 

    Where the Coptic scribe is copying the Greek text of John 1:1 and coming to that third clause in the verse finds no article for God; so he uses an indefinite article according to his Coptic language conventions. In any case, something to consider.    

    That the Coptic text has an indefinite article due to their language structure does not then imply a theological belief in a second lesser created god as do the Watch Tower folks.

  • The Coptic translators rendered John 1:1 in this way (Transliterated):

    1. a. Hn te.houeite ne.f.shoop ngi p.shaje

    1. b. Auw p.shaje ne.f.shoop n.nahrm p.noute

    1. c. Auw ne.u.noute pe p.shaje 1

    Literally, the Coptic says:

    1. a. In the beginning existed the word

    1. b. And the word existed in the presence of the god

    1. c. And a god was the word

    We can see at the outset that the Coptic translators used the Coptic definite article (p) in referring to the One the Word was with or “in the presence of” (nnahrm): p.noute, “the” god, i.e., God. And we can see that in referring to the Word, the Coptic translators employed the Coptic indefinite article (ou; just “u” following the vowel “e”): ne.u.noute, “a god.”


    Coptic translation.

    “In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word existed in the presence of the God, and a god was the Word.”

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  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    We can see at the outset that the Coptic translators used the Coptic definite article (p) in referring to the One the Word was with or “in the presence of” (nnahrm): p.noute, “the” god, i.e., God. And we can see that in referring to the Word, the Coptic translators employed the Coptic indefinite article (ou; just “u” following the vowel “e”): ne.u.noute, “a god.”

    Yes, they followed their own Coptic language convention regarding article usage. A parallel to the English Snoopy example you provided.

    However, I'm almost certain that the point of my previous reply was not at all clear in what I wished to convey. 

    I wished to convey that the English Snoopy rule you presented could just as easily be applied to the Coptic language practice. It was not in my mind to propose that it supported, in my opinion, the erroneous translation of the third clause of Jn. 1:1 by the NWT.

    My specific consideration was that the Coptic scribe in translating the Greek text into Coptic was following his own natural language rules, and by doing so does not then imply that Coptic Christians believed the Word to be a god.

    It was hoped you might recognize that your Snoopy argument you used to support the rendering of a god could also be used against supporting that rendering.

    One final thought in closing, is that it is also natural in English to say, the dog was Snoopy; and, lack of an article in Greek is not an absolute indication of a word's indefiniteness.

  • PagesPages Posts: 130

    @BroRando

    You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ

    How are using "accept" – do you mean to say that trinitarians don't believe in, have or put confidence in, have trust in, etc. Jesus?    

    It omits Christ from its doctrine and promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is not found in Any Bible.

    The doctrine speaks relationally of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God. In my opinion, the following "It omits Christ from its doctrine" is a rather misguided straw man diversion with regard to the doctrine of the trinity; but in passing, is not the Son also the Christ within WT teaching? 

    Trinitarians profess that John 1:1 explains their theology of ‘three separate persons ’. It does not.

    There are certainly more passages of scripture than Jn. 1:1 that relate to the doctrine; however, the wording of Jn. 1:1 points out that the Word and God are distinct from one another, and yet, that the Word is God.

    Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who will deny and oppose the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    "an apostate trinitarian" is this to be understood as an apostate from the trinitarian doctrine, or that all trinitarians are apostates according to the WT?

    Trinitarians proclaim Jesus is co-equal to his God while Jesus himself proclaims "the Father is Greater than I am." (John 14:28)

    At first glance, and thought, this may seem to be quite persuasive at disputing the co-equal-ness of Jesus and God; however, as I have elsewhere stated in this thread previously, this is simply a confusion of the categories "function" and that of "ontology", creating a category error and falsehood.

    That a son, in function, is subordinate in position to his father in no way effects the ontological equality they both share. This is true for humankind as well, is it not?  

    When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ under the inspiration of Holy Spirit somehow mis-spoken because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate Persons which is never cited in any scripture. 

    God is a spirit being – the rest of this statement seems incoherent to me.

    In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3 he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know You, the only true God” Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity of three separate persons?

    What does the text say – does it say the Father?  You answered your own question "In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer," did you not?

    Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity to be a False God? 

    In what way?

    As Jesus continue his teachings about God, he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping Him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular? Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME. 

    Yes, a singular pronoun is used, why wouldn't it be? Is there more than One True God? Is your understanding of the trinity colored by the fact the WT teaches there is a secondary, lessor god Jesus? "a god" Jn 1:1 NWT.

    Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself

    I find this statement demonstrating incoherency again – a lack of understanding the most basic principles concerning trinitarian doctrine.

    aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?

    How so? There is only One True God worthy of worship. Father, Son, Holy Spirit – distinct in Person, co-eternal, and co-equal (nature, essence, attributes). Neither the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit individually of themself exhaust all that there is of the Being of God.

    Is the Father eternal? If so, then it follows that the Son must also be eternal; otherwise God could not be the Father eternally.

    According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.

    Is the Father, God? Are there other pagan gods available to worship which the Israelites have previously given their worship? Tritheism certainly could be defined in the above manner "a trinity of ‘gods’".

    I would assert that the WT having One True God uncreated (greater) and a secondary created (lessor) god Jesus would be easily classified as bitheism. 

    In that the WT attempts to get around this bitheism issue by stating worship is not to Jesus proper, but the Father only; however, this is problematic for the WT because Jesus in Rev. 22:3 receives worship (λατρεύσουσιν rendered "will serve" (cf. Ex. 20:5 "worship")) alongside God in their reign as one (cf. Rev. 21:22).

    Since the WT makes no provision for this worship given to Jesus in their theological construct at any time they, the WT, have an unresolvable contradiction to face. It is not as though they can explain this inconsistency away since they have clearly established in their theology that only God the Father is to be worshiped, and in no sense should there be any worship of Jesus. 

    I will note that the WT does make provision for honoring Jesus, but not cultic religious worship

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