The Kingdom of God
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
Why did God create Satan? Why does he keep him alive? What about God binding Satan in Revelation 20 only to let him loose to deceive the nations? If it is in God's power to bind him, why not just do him in permanently?
First of all, God didn't create "Satan".
Secondly, God hasn't destroyed Satan yet, for the good of the entire universe. Freedom of choice. each has to choose whom he or she will serve to the whole universe our loyalty. This way he is allowed to be around for a while more. His rebellion is allowed to grow up to its fullness. Man, as well as angels, must see the contrast between the God of light and the prince of darkness. Every man must choose whom he will serve.
Thirdly, Satan will finally mee his end. Ezekiel 28:18-19; Nahum 1:9; Malachi 4:1.
Satan's end will be "HELL".
1. Who is in charge of Hell? Matt. 10:28. God is in charge of Hell fire!!
2. When does Hell start?Matt. 13:36-43. Jesus explains it very plainly. Hell fire will be at the end of the world. Revelation 22:12. Jesus says; Behold I come quickly, and my reward is with Me to give every man according to his work. John 5:28, 29, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice.
3. How long does Hell last?Matt. 25:41.
Please take special note the purpose of the fire is to destroy Satan, his evil angels, and sin. If we refuse to turn loose of the plague of sin, we will have to be destroyed with them, because if sin, is not destroyed, it would again contaminate the universe. 2 Peter 2:6, 9; 2 Peter 3:7, 10, 13.
Everything will be burned up. Malachi 4:1-3. After reading these verses, we can easily understand that the wicked don’t burn forever and ever. They are burned up, consumed away into smoke, root and branch, Satan the root, his followers the branches. Truth found truth shared. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Why did God create Satan? Why does he keep him alive? What about God binding Satan in Revelation 20 only to let him loose to deceive the nations? If it is in God's power to bind him, why not just do him in permanently?
First of all, God didn't create "Satan".
Secondly, God hasn't destroyed Satan yet, for the good of the entire universe. Freedom of choice. each has to choose whom he or she will serve to the whole universe our loyalty. This way he is allowed to be around for a while more. His rebellion is allowed to grow up to its fullness. Man, as well as angels, must see the contrast between the God of light and the prince of darkness. Every man must choose whom he will serve.
Thirdly, Satan will finally mee his end. Ezekiel 28:18-19; Nahum 1:9; Malachi 4:1.
Satan's end will be "HELL".
1. Who is in charge of Hell? Matt. 10:28. God is in charge of Hell fire!!
2. When does Hell start?Matt. 13:36-43. Jesus explains it very plainly. Hell fire will be at the end of the world. Revelation 22:12. Jesus says; Behold I come quickly, and my reward is with Me to give every man according to his work. John 5:28, 29, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice.
3. How long does Hell last?Matt. 25:41.
Please take special note the purpose of the fire is to destroy Satan, his evil angels, and sin. If we refuse to turn loose of the plague of sin, we will have to be destroyed with them, because if sin, is not destroyed, it would again contaminate the universe. 2 Peter 2:6, 9; 2 Peter 3:7, 10, 13.
Everything will be burned up. Malachi 4:1-3. After reading these verses, we can easily understand that the wicked don’t burn forever and ever. They are burned up, consumed away into smoke, root and branch, Satan the root, his followers the branches. Truth found truth shared. CM
How can God creator of heaven and earth and all their host, not have created Satan?
You say: "First of all, God didn't create "Satan"."
Scripture says: “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Revelation 4:11)
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@GaoLu said:
Why did God create Satan? Why does he keep him alive? What about God binding Satan in Revelation 20 only to let him loose to deceive the nations? If it is in God's power to bind him, why not just do him in permanently?
This is where your boxing God inside bad theology has created havock of the Truth. Like Bill, you really ought to start by trusting the Bible just like it is written. If you reject that, you might end up anywhere, but it won't be where you want to go.
I am using the bible just as written. You cannot answer my questions apart from using the bible.
"Why did God create Satan? Why does he keep him alive? What about God binding Satan in Revelation 20 only to let him loose to deceive the nations? If it is in God's power to bind him, why not just do him in permanently?"
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@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for sharing.My pleasure.
But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
You have my permission to believe anything you want. The point (for the umpteenth time) is that you are barking up the wrong tree. You have treed a ghost that doesn't exist. You have become a slave to the tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the passage.
So you do not think God supernaturally prevented Jesus' body from decaying in the tomb. When Lazarus body already smelled of death and rot by the fourth day?
How much time does an organ transplant physician have between harvesting an organ from the donor and attaching it to the recipient?
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
A focus on untended, probably insignificant linguistic detail that misses the whole point of the difference between David and Jesus. Obviously, the statement can't be taken comepletely literal as has been logically shown over and over. That was never the intent--not even in the Amplified Bible. But, whatever! Camp there if you want.Thanks for sharing. But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
My body stinks at the end of the day if I haven't had a shower and I certainly am not in a state of decay.
David, Peter and Paul said Jesus' body did not see decay during the 72 hours of entombment. But Lazarus' body obviously did.
According to what?
Scripture. “But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.” (Acts 13:37)
“Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.” (John 11:39)
“Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”” (John 11:38–39)
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@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for sharing.My pleasure.
But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
You have my permission to believe anything you want. The point (for the umpteenth time) is that you are barking up the wrong tree. You have treed a ghost that doesn't exist. You have become a slave to the tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the passage.
According to Dr. Arpad A. Vass, a Senior Staff Scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Tennessee in Forensic Anthropology, human decomposition begins around four minutes after a person dies and follows four stages: autolysis, bloat, active decay, and skeletonization.
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Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.
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@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
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@Dave_L said:
How can God creator of heaven and earth and all their host, not have created Satan?
You say: "First of all, God didn't create "Satan"."
Scripture says: “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Revelation 4:11)David,
I am not a believer in fatalism (an attempt to explain away sin, or at the least to avoid personal responsibility for it). Sin cannot be metaphysically explained. One can never assign the reality of sin to the goodness of God’s creation. "God is not the cause or author of sin." if one tries to argue that God has anything to do with man’s sin is to provide sin with a “definitive and final excuse.”
"Berkouwer states that sin is an aberration from God. Sin is not willed by God in the same sense as grace and salvation; yet sin is an indirect good; yet any connection between sin and divine decree is coincidental. The process of sin is a process of God rather than that of man. Moreover, man is not a helpless victim for he is willfully conquered by sin and there is no causal connection to Satan. Sin is an illicit incursion and different reality. It can only be understood in the practice of living."
An overview of Rev 20:1-6, it covers scenes In Heaven & On Earth. In Rev 20:1-3, are events on earth at the beginning during the 1, 000 years. Satan is bound to this EARTH during the millennium (or thousand-year period) following Jesus' second coming. Jeremiah 4:23-27, tells us that the earth is desolate and uninhabited during the millennium. 1 Cor. 6:2-3, shows that the saints judge the world during the thousand years…
On the other hand, Rev 20:4-6, are events in HEAVEN-- the same time period during the 1,000 years [The wicked dead will remain unconscious in their graves when Jesus comes. Those who are raised in the "first resurrection" (the righteous) are "blessed and holy." The "rest of the dead" (the wicked) are not raised until the end of the thousand years. They remain sleeping in their graves. There is no second chance at salvation for those who are lost]. These two sections show a sift from Earth to Heaven in verse 4.
The section you were concern about in your question is covered in Rev. 20:3-13. At the end of the millennium, Satan is loosed for a short time, and the wicked are raised to life to receive their final judgment. Rev. 20:11-12 --- The wicked stand before God's judgment throne and receive His judgment. “Every knee bow…” See also, Philippians 2:10, 11.
Rev. 20:9-10 & 14—states fire comes down from heaven and destroys forever Satan, his angels, and all the wicked.
Dave, please read Ezekiel 28:13-18, of Lucifer before becoming Satan. You will conclude with me, God didn’t create Satan. In short, God made a perfect being (angel) in Lucifer. “Satan” is a term of behavior. Lucifer made himself into a Devil or Satan. It’s not God’s doing or creation. Emil Brunner came to a similar conclusion when he wrote that "all evil comes from our desire to be our own master, from loving ourselves more than God.'" Joyous reading. Truth found truth shared. CM
SOURCES:
Emil Brunner, Our Faith, trans. John W. Rilling (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, n.d.), 51.
Berkouwer, Gerrit C. Sin, Studies in Dogmatics: Sin 14, 27, 147 -
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
A focus on untended, probably insignificant linguistic detail that misses the whole point of the difference between David and Jesus. Obviously, the statement can't be taken comepletely literal as has been logically shown over and over. That was never the intent--not even in the Amplified Bible. But, whatever! Camp there if you want.Thanks for sharing. But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
My body stinks at the end of the day if I haven't had a shower and I certainly am not in a state of decay.
David, Peter and Paul said Jesus' body did not see decay during the 72 hours of entombment. But Lazarus' body obviously did.
According to what?
Scripture. “But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.” (Acts 13:37)
“Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.” (John 11:39)
“Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”” (John 11:38–39)
Notice none of that says Lazarus decayed.
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for sharing.My pleasure.
But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
You have my permission to believe anything you want. The point (for the umpteenth time) is that you are barking up the wrong tree. You have treed a ghost that doesn't exist. You have become a slave to the tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the passage.
According to Dr. Arpad A. Vass, a Senior Staff Scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Tennessee in Forensic Anthropology, human decomposition begins around four minutes after a person dies and follows four stages: autolysis, bloat, active decay, and skeletonization.
decomposition and decay are not the same thing.
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@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
David, Peter and Paul and even Spurgeon and the scientists do quite well. What you drum up out of the rainforest from what they say, bears little or no resemblance.
For the record, the process of decay in a human body is the same process as life without a food source. Probably you don't understand that oversimplification. Either take my word for it or go take a highschool biology course.
The point of Scripture is that the reign of Jesus was unlike the reign of David (whose body by now is bare bones--may they RIP). Jesus reign is eternal. His body was resurrected and is very much alive. That's it!
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@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
David, Peter and Paul and even Spurgeon and the scientists do quite well. What you drum up out of the rainforest from what they say, bears little or no resemblance.
For the record, the process of decay in a human body is the same process as life without a food source. Probably you don't understand that oversimplification. Either take my word for it or go take a highschool biology course.
The point of Scripture is that the reign of Jesus was unlike the reign of David (whose body by now is bare bones--may they RIP). Jesus reign is eternal. His body was resurrected and is very much alive. That's it!
You still rob God of his glory in his miraculously "not permitting" Jesus body to experience decay. This was not the case with Lazarus who already had profuse odor from decay slightly beyond the time God raised Jesus from the tomb.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit resulted from ascribing the works of God to Satan. How close do we come when ascribing the works of God to natural law?
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
A focus on untended, probably insignificant linguistic detail that misses the whole point of the difference between David and Jesus. Obviously, the statement can't be taken comepletely literal as has been logically shown over and over. That was never the intent--not even in the Amplified Bible. But, whatever! Camp there if you want.Thanks for sharing. But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
My body stinks at the end of the day if I haven't had a shower and I certainly am not in a state of decay.
David, Peter and Paul said Jesus' body did not see decay during the 72 hours of entombment. But Lazarus' body obviously did.
According to what?
Scripture. “But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.” (Acts 13:37)
“Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.” (John 11:39)
“Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”” (John 11:38–39)
Notice none of that says Lazarus decayed.
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for sharing.My pleasure.
But please consider: If Jesus' body did not experience decay as David, Peter and Paul say, for purely naturalistic reasons as you and DT say, then Lazarus' body also remained free from decay for an equal time period. But if the only reason Jesus' body did not decay was in resurrecting it before decay set in. Then why do they say Lazarus' body already stank when Jesus was to raise it on the 4th day?
You have my permission to believe anything you want. The point (for the umpteenth time) is that you are barking up the wrong tree. You have treed a ghost that doesn't exist. You have become a slave to the tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the passage.
According to Dr. Arpad A. Vass, a Senior Staff Scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Tennessee in Forensic Anthropology, human decomposition begins around four minutes after a person dies and follows four stages: autolysis, bloat, active decay, and skeletonization.
decomposition and decay are not the same thing.
If Lazarus did not decay, why did they raise such a "stink" about it? People enter a state of decay upon death. Brain cells die within 4 minutes. Not being alive = decay.
Please note the following related facts:
Replantation is generally not possible for fingers that have been separated from the body for more than 12 hours. In cases where the injury is further into the hand or arm, the time to reattachment is even shorter, as muscle tissue must be reattached within 6 hours from the time of injury.Sep 1, 2017
https://www.verywell.com/finger-amputation-2549401A: The approximate maximum time for the following organs/tissues is: Lung (4-6 hours); Heart (4-6 hours); Liver (24 hours); Pancreas (24 hours); Kidney (72 hours); Corneas (14 days); Bone (5 years); Skin (5 years); Heart valves (10 years).
http://www.dcids.org/facts-about-donation/frequently-asked-questions/
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
How can God creator of heaven and earth and all their host, not have created Satan?
You say: "First of all, God didn't create "Satan"."
Scripture says: “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Revelation 4:11)David,
I am not a believer in fatalism (an attempt to explain away sin, or at the least to avoid personal responsibility for it). Sin cannot be metaphysically explained. One can never assign the reality of sin to the goodness of God’s creation. "God is not the cause or author of sin." if one tries to argue that God has anything to do with man’s sin is to provide sin with a “definitive and final excuse.”
"Berkouwer states that sin is an aberration from God. Sin is not willed by God in the same sense as grace and salvation; yet sin is an indirect good; yet any connection between sin and divine decree is coincidental. The process of sin is a process of God rather than that of man. Moreover, man is not a helpless victim for he is willfully conquered by sin and there is no causal connection to Satan. Sin is an illicit incursion and different reality. It can only be understood in the practice of living."
An overview of Rev 20:1-6, it covers scenes In Heaven & On Earth. In Rev 20:1-3, are events on earth at the beginning during the 1, 000 years. Satan is bound to this EARTH during the millennium (or thousand-year period) following Jesus' second coming. Jeremiah 4:23-27, tells us that the earth is desolate and uninhabited during the millennium. 1 Cor. 6:2-3, shows that the saints judge the world during the thousand years…
On the other hand, Rev 20:4-6, are events in HEAVEN-- the same time period during the 1,000 years [The wicked dead will remain unconscious in their graves when Jesus comes. Those who are raised in the "first resurrection" (the righteous) are "blessed and holy." The "rest of the dead" (the wicked) are not raised until the end of the thousand years. They remain sleeping in their graves. There is no second chance at salvation for those who are lost]. These two sections show a sift from Earth to Heaven in verse 4.
The section you were concern about in your question is covered in Rev. 20:3-13. At the end of the millennium, Satan is loosed for a short time, and the wicked are raised to life to receive their final judgment. Rev. 20:11-12 --- The wicked stand before God's judgment throne and receive His judgment. “Every knee bow…” See also, Philippians 2:10, 11.
Rev. 20:9-10 & 14—states fire comes down from heaven and destroys forever Satan, his angels, and all the wicked.
Dave, please read Ezekiel 28:13-18, of Lucifer before becoming Satan. You will conclude with me, God didn’t create Satan. In short, God made a perfect being (angel) in Lucifer. “Satan” is a term of behavior. Lucifer made himself into a Devil or Satan. It’s not God’s doing or creation. Emil Brunner came to a similar conclusion when he wrote that "all evil comes from our desire to be our own master, from loving ourselves more than God.'" Joyous reading. Truth found truth shared. CM
SOURCES:
Emil Brunner, Our Faith, trans. John W. Rilling (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, n.d.), 51.
Berkouwer, Gerrit C. Sin, Studies in Dogmatics: Sin 14, 27, 147Getting back to the question "why did God create Satan?" you say: "please read Ezekiel 28:13-18, of Lucifer before becoming Satan".
This is a popular view but has nothing to do with Satan. It is about the King of Tyre.
But it does say, “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” (Genesis 3:1)
“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:9)
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@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
David, Peter and Paul and even Spurgeon and the scientists do quite well. What you drum up out of the rainforest from what they say, bears little or no resemblance.
For the record, the process of decay in a human body is the same process as life without a food source. Probably you don't understand that oversimplification. Either take my word for it or go take a highschool biology course.
The point of Scripture is that the reign of Jesus was unlike the reign of David (whose body by now is bare bones--may they RIP). Jesus reign is eternal. His body was resurrected and is very much alive. That's it!
You still rob God of his glory in his miraculously "not permitting" Jesus body to experience decay. This was not the case with Lazarus who already had profuse odor from decay slightly beyond the time God raised Jesus from the tomb.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit resulted from ascribing the works of God to Satan. How close do we come when ascribing the works of God to natural law?
No you don't, it was pretty miraculous that he raised Christ from the dead. No robbing of glory there.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
David, Peter and Paul and even Spurgeon and the scientists do quite well. What you drum up out of the rainforest from what they say, bears little or no resemblance.
For the record, the process of decay in a human body is the same process as life without a food source. Probably you don't understand that oversimplification. Either take my word for it or go take a highschool biology course.
The point of Scripture is that the reign of Jesus was unlike the reign of David (whose body by now is bare bones--may they RIP). Jesus reign is eternal. His body was resurrected and is very much alive. That's it!
You still rob God of his glory in his miraculously "not permitting" Jesus body to experience decay. This was not the case with Lazarus who already had profuse odor from decay slightly beyond the time God raised Jesus from the tomb.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit resulted from ascribing the works of God to Satan. How close do we come when ascribing the works of God to natural law?
No you don't, it was pretty miraculous that he raised Christ from the dead. No robbing of glory there.
You are saying God did not intervene by not permitting Jesus' body to decay from the onset of death. But he let it rot and stink just as he did Lazarus' body.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
David, Peter and Paul and even Spurgeon and the scientists do quite well. What you drum up out of the rainforest from what they say, bears little or no resemblance.
For the record, the process of decay in a human body is the same process as life without a food source. Probably you don't understand that oversimplification. Either take my word for it or go take a highschool biology course.
The point of Scripture is that the reign of Jesus was unlike the reign of David (whose body by now is bare bones--may they RIP). Jesus reign is eternal. His body was resurrected and is very much alive. That's it!
You still rob God of his glory in his miraculously "not permitting" Jesus body to experience decay. This was not the case with Lazarus who already had profuse odor from decay slightly beyond the time God raised Jesus from the tomb.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit resulted from ascribing the works of God to Satan. How close do we come when ascribing the works of God to natural law?
No you don't, it was pretty miraculous that he raised Christ from the dead. No robbing of glory there.
You are saying God did not intervene by not permitting Jesus' body to decay from the onset of death. But he let it rot and stink just as he did Lazarus' body.
I didn't say that at all, you just clearly aren't capable of understanding what actually happens when someone dies, and what is meant by decay and corruption in the eyes of the original audience. Remember, the original intent to the original audience gives you the correct interpretation.
I've explained this time and time again and you have failed to give any evidence that actually supports your position. Therefore I am not going to engage any further on this topic as you are wasting our time and are too stuck in your ways to be teachable.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Dave, you are speaking nonsense. I am not going to engage that.I'm quoting a Surgeon who does not speak nonsense. I'm quoting David, Peter and Paul who verify that God supernaturally kept Jesus' body from decaying, in what everyone agrees is a state of decay, according to common medical knowledge.
David, Peter and Paul and even Spurgeon and the scientists do quite well. What you drum up out of the rainforest from what they say, bears little or no resemblance.
For the record, the process of decay in a human body is the same process as life without a food source. Probably you don't understand that oversimplification. Either take my word for it or go take a highschool biology course.
The point of Scripture is that the reign of Jesus was unlike the reign of David (whose body by now is bare bones--may they RIP). Jesus reign is eternal. His body was resurrected and is very much alive. That's it!
You still rob God of his glory in his miraculously "not permitting" Jesus body to experience decay. This was not the case with Lazarus who already had profuse odor from decay slightly beyond the time God raised Jesus from the tomb.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit resulted from ascribing the works of God to Satan. How close do we come when ascribing the works of God to natural law?
No you don't, it was pretty miraculous that he raised Christ from the dead. No robbing of glory there.
You are saying God did not intervene by not permitting Jesus' body to decay from the onset of death. But he let it rot and stink just as he did Lazarus' body.
I didn't say that at all, you just clearly aren't capable of understanding what actually happens when someone dies, and what is meant by decay and corruption in the eyes of the original audience. Remember, the original intent to the original audience gives you the correct interpretation.
I've explained this time and time again and you have failed to give any evidence that actually supports your position. Therefore I am not going to engage any further on this topic as you are wasting our time and are too stuck in your ways to be teachable.
You imply, by all that you say, that the only reason Jesus' body did not reach the advanced stages of decay was the time element between the time of death and the time of the resurrection. But we know Lazarus already emitted the stench of death by the 4th day. This is according to scripture. And it also says, according to David, Peter and Paul, God would not permit this to happen in Jesus' case. I.E., if Lazarus smelled of rot on the 4th day, he certainly began to smell earlier.
But medical science refutes everything you say also. The brain enters decay mode 4 minutes after death. Just as a human life exists at the moment of conception. People can reason one way against abortion if it suits them. And then deny the same logic against something else if it suits them.
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@Dave_L said:
But medical science refutes everything you say also.
Dave, flat out, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
You know, when I lived in Alaska we had moose and wolves and black bears and an occasional grizzly around our cabin. We knew them well.
We also had a guest cabin and a motorhome (used as a spare room) and a lot of guests. We found it humorous and taught our kids to be silent when some guest came bounding in the house saying, "I saw a caribou! A real caribou!" Our kids knew that caribou don't come down along the river in summer when salmon are in the water and when bears are about. What the person saw was a female moose or maybe a yearling male. They knew that because they lived there.
A few times when we saw a bear a person would tell us, "That isn't a black bear, it isn't even black!" People just didn't know. Our kids could tell a black bear from a grizzly by its facial profile from a quarter of a mile away. We taught them that because they needed to know. We also taught our children to explain once respectfully but not to argue--unless danger was involved.
So, I try to follow that same advice we gave them. But Dave, I studied a great deal of biology for many years. What you say is simply ridiculous. Someone out to tell you. But if you insist...alright.
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@Dave_L said:
But medical science refutes everything you say also. The brain enters decay mode 4 minutes after death. Just as a human life exists at the moment of conception. People can reason one way against abortion if it suits them. And then deny the same logic against something else if it suits them.
Dave, Dave, Dave,
In following this thread from its OP, until now, we have come a long to almost, nowhere. Let me say this:
You seem to be, in at least in a sub-conscience way, concern about your own mortality. If this is so, let me assure you, as a believer in the resurrection power of Jesus, are in good hands. You have nothing to worry about.
Death is nothing to be feared if we have made the necessary spiritual preparation. Ps 116:15 says, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints."
Death is like a sleep, according to Jesus. It is interesting to note that the Greek translation of Sirach 46:19-20 interprets death (Hebrew original) as sleep, stating that “after he [Samuel] had fallen asleep, he prophesied”. These words alludes to a resurrection hope since “sleep” suggests that death is not permanent – if you are sleeping you will also wake up from the sleep at one point in the future. This analogy became popular in later Second Temple period Judaism and was used most famously by Jesus in the New Testament (e.g. Matt 9:24; 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14).
However, it a concession of life. No thought, breathe, life, fear, or joy.
Ecclesiastics 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.” The dead–do not know anything
–they’re not burning in hell
–screaming in the flames
-No tunnel, as in Judaism, one enters at death
–for death is but a sleep–until the resurrection.
Part of the gospel is that the universe will, in the future, be cleansed of all evil and sin. God will do so without endless torture for His rebellious children but with eternal death. This is what the Bible calls the second death (Rev 20:14). In light of this, Brunner's words "the wrath of God is the love of God" makes good sense. [Emil Brunner, Man in Revolt, trans. Olive Wyon (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1947), 187].
Jesus has defeated Satan, death and the grave. Whether one is dead or "rotten" for one hour or one hundred years, it's no problem for Jesus. When he comes, we will have new bodies, no stench or decay.
This is good news! We have the promise:
"The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thess 4:16).
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor 15:51-55).
"Jesus is the gate to eternal life Death is the gate to eternal life." Until then, "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James 5:7-8). Discernment or just good news in advance? CM
PS. Lay off the **Scofield Reference Bible ** usage...
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CORRECTIONS, Dave,
My # 4, in my last post: "However, it a concession of life. No thought, breathe, life, fear, or joy."
The word should be "cessation" not, "concession."
It should read: However, it [death] a "cessation" of life: No thought, breath, life, fear, or joy.
-
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
But medical science refutes everything you say also.
Dave, flat out, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
You know, when I lived in Alaska we had moose and wolves and black bears and an occasional grizzly around our cabin. We knew them well.
We also had a guest cabin and a motorhome (used as a spare room) and a lot of guests. We found it humorous and taught our kids to be silent when some guest came bounding in the house saying, "I saw a caribou! A real caribou!" Our kids knew that caribou don't come down along the river in summer when salmon are in the water and when bears are about. What the person saw was a female moose or maybe a yearling male. They knew that because they lived there.
A few times when we saw a bear a person would tell us, "That isn't a black bear, it isn't even black!" People just didn't know. Our kids could tell a black bear from a grizzly by its facial profile from a quarter of a mile away. We taught them that because they needed to know. We also taught our children to explain once respectfully but not to argue--unless danger was involved.
So, I try to follow that same advice we gave them. But Dave, I studied a great deal of biology for many years. What you say is simply ridiculous. Someone out to tell you. But if you insist...alright.
Scripture teaches that Jesus' body entered a state of decay. But that God did not permit his body to decay while in that state. If you think time and the natural rate of decomposition between his time of death and the resurrection was the only means of God preventing it, that is fine. But I know through experience that it was more than that.
I see a lot of roadkill using a bicycle as my main main mode of transportation when weather permits. And what you and DT say about God not supernaturally intervening to preserve Jesus' body from decay does not square with what I've seen, nor with the educated facts.
-
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
But medical science refutes everything you say also. The brain enters decay mode 4 minutes after death. Just as a human life exists at the moment of conception. People can reason one way against abortion if it suits them. And then deny the same logic against something else if it suits them.
Dave, Dave, Dave,
In following this thread from its OP, until now, we have come a long to almost, nowhere. Let me say this:
You seem to be, in at least in a sub-conscience way, concern about your own mortality. If this is so, let me assure you, as a believer in the resurrection power of Jesus, are in good hands. You have nothing to worry about.
Death is nothing to be feared if we have made the necessary spiritual preparation. Ps 116:15 says, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints."
Death is like a sleep, according to Jesus. It is interesting to note that the Greek translation of Sirach 46:19-20 interprets death (Hebrew original) as sleep, stating that “after he [Samuel] had fallen asleep, he prophesied”. These words alludes to a resurrection hope since “sleep” suggests that death is not permanent – if you are sleeping you will also wake up from the sleep at one point in the future. This analogy became popular in later Second Temple period Judaism and was used most famously by Jesus in the New Testament (e.g. Matt 9:24; 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14).
However, it a concession of life. No thought, breathe, life, fear, or joy.
Ecclesiastics 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.” The dead–do not know anything
–they’re not burning in hell
–screaming in the flames
-No tunnel, as in Judaism, one enters at death
–for death is but a sleep–until the resurrection.
Part of the gospel is that the universe will, in the future, be cleansed of all evil and sin. God will do so without endless torture for His rebellious children but with eternal death. This is what the Bible calls the second death (Rev 20:14). In light of this, Brunner's words "the wrath of God is the love of God" makes good sense. [Emil Brunner, Man in Revolt, trans. Olive Wyon (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1947), 187].
Jesus has defeated Satan, death and the grave. Whether one is dead or "rotten" for one hour or one hundred years, it's no problem for Jesus. When he comes, we will have new bodies, no stench or decay.
This is good news! We have the promise:
"The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thess 4:16).
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor 15:51-55).
"Jesus is the gate to eternal life Death is the gate to eternal life." Until then, "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James 5:7-8). Discernment or just good news in advance? CM
PS. Lay off the **Scofield Reference Bible ** usage...
Thanks for your concern. But this thread went wildly off topic. So I'm confused about what you are aiming at. The Kingdom of God? or the rate of bodily decay in the grave?
If the kingdom of God, it is here now and there is no future physical millennium. If you are writing about Jesus' body not decaying in the tomb, I say God supernaturally preserved it so that he did not suffer the decay of one brain cell, that usually begins 4 minutes after death.
-
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
But medical science refutes everything you say also. The brain enters decay mode 4 minutes after death. Just as a human life exists at the moment of conception. People can reason one way against abortion if it suits them. And then deny the same logic against something else if it suits them.
Dave, Dave, Dave,
In following this thread from its OP, until now, we have come a long to almost, nowhere. Let me say this:
You seem to be, in at least in a sub-conscience way, concern about your own mortality. If this is so, let me assure you, as a believer in the resurrection power of Jesus, are in good hands. You have nothing to worry about.
Death is nothing to be feared if we have made the necessary spiritual preparation. Ps 116:15 says, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints."
Death is like a sleep, according to Jesus. It is interesting to note that the Greek translation of Sirach 46:19-20 interprets death (Hebrew original) as sleep, stating that “after he [Samuel] had fallen asleep, he prophesied”. These words alludes to a resurrection hope since “sleep” suggests that death is not permanent – if you are sleeping you will also wake up from the sleep at one point in the future. This analogy became popular in later Second Temple period Judaism and was used most famously by Jesus in the New Testament (e.g. Matt 9:24; 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14).
However, it a concession of life. No thought, breathe, life, fear, or joy.
Ecclesiastics 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.” The dead–do not know anything
–they’re not burning in hell
–screaming in the flames
-No tunnel, as in Judaism, one enters at death
–for death is but a sleep–until the resurrection.
Part of the gospel is that the universe will, in the future, be cleansed of all evil and sin. God will do so without endless torture for His rebellious children but with eternal death. This is what the Bible calls the second death (Rev 20:14). In light of this, Brunner's words "the wrath of God is the love of God" makes good sense. [Emil Brunner, Man in Revolt, trans. Olive Wyon (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1947), 187].
Jesus has defeated Satan, death and the grave. Whether one is dead or "rotten" for one hour or one hundred years, it's no problem for Jesus. When he comes, we will have new bodies, no stench or decay.
This is good news! We have the promise:
"The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thess 4:16).
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor 15:51-55).
"Jesus is the gate to eternal life Death is the gate to eternal life." Until then, "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James 5:7-8). Discernment or just good news in advance? CM
PS. Lay off the **Scofield Reference Bible ** usage...
Thanks for your concern. But this thread went wildly off topic. So I'm confused about what you are aiming at. The Kingdom of God? or the rate of bodily decay in the grave?
If the kingdom of God, it is here now and there is no future physical millennium. If you are writing about Jesus' body not decaying in the tomb, I say God supernaturally preserved it so that he did not suffer the decay of one brain cell, that usually begins 4 minutes after death.
Might I just point out you were the one that derailed it....
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
But medical science refutes everything you say also. The brain enters decay mode 4 minutes after death. Just as a human life exists at the moment of conception. People can reason one way against abortion if it suits them. And then deny the same logic against something else if it suits them.
Dave, Dave, Dave,
In following this thread from its OP, until now, we have come a long to almost, nowhere. Let me say this:
You seem to be, in at least in a sub-conscience way, concern about your own mortality. If this is so, let me assure you, as a believer in the resurrection power of Jesus, are in good hands. You have nothing to worry about.
Death is nothing to be feared if we have made the necessary spiritual preparation. Ps 116:15 says, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints."
Death is like a sleep, according to Jesus. It is interesting to note that the Greek translation of Sirach 46:19-20 interprets death (Hebrew original) as sleep, stating that “after he [Samuel] had fallen asleep, he prophesied”. These words alludes to a resurrection hope since “sleep” suggests that death is not permanent – if you are sleeping you will also wake up from the sleep at one point in the future. This analogy became popular in later Second Temple period Judaism and was used most famously by Jesus in the New Testament (e.g. Matt 9:24; 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11-14).
However, it a concession of life. No thought, breathe, life, fear, or joy.
Ecclesiastics 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.” The dead–do not know anything
–they’re not burning in hell
–screaming in the flames
-No tunnel, as in Judaism, one enters at death
–for death is but a sleep–until the resurrection.
Part of the gospel is that the universe will, in the future, be cleansed of all evil and sin. God will do so without endless torture for His rebellious children but with eternal death. This is what the Bible calls the second death (Rev 20:14). In light of this, Brunner's words "the wrath of God is the love of God" makes good sense. [Emil Brunner, Man in Revolt, trans. Olive Wyon (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1947), 187].
Jesus has defeated Satan, death and the grave. Whether one is dead or "rotten" for one hour or one hundred years, it's no problem for Jesus. When he comes, we will have new bodies, no stench or decay.
This is good news! We have the promise:
"The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thess 4:16).
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" (1 Cor 15:51-55).
"Jesus is the gate to eternal life Death is the gate to eternal life." Until then, "Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand." (James 5:7-8). Discernment or just good news in advance? CM
PS. Lay off the **Scofield Reference Bible ** usage...
Thanks for your concern. But this thread went wildly off topic. So I'm confused about what you are aiming at. The Kingdom of God? or the rate of bodily decay in the grave?
If the kingdom of God, it is here now and there is no future physical millennium. If you are writing about Jesus' body not decaying in the tomb, I say God supernaturally preserved it so that he did not suffer the decay of one brain cell, that usually begins 4 minutes after death.
Might I just point out you were the one that derailed it....
I'm sorry if I did. But I don't recall how.
