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        <title>Revelation — Christian Debate</title>
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        <pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2026 08:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
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            <description>Revelation — Christian Debate</description>
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        <title>The Beast Revelation</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/839/the-beast-revelation</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 20 Jun 2020 18:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Biblical Studies</category>
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        <description><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Beast Revelation</strong></p><p>This letter is dedicated to all Christians.</p><p><em>The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.</em></p><p>The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.</p><p>This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible.</p><p>Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you can eliminate some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet. This interpretation is misleading, and it also creates a stumbling block in the path to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.</p><p>Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to receive a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.</p><p>Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17:10, just in a slightly different appearance. There are seven kings, five are fallen. This means five kings were defeated in war. Israel is referred to the "one that is," and the one that came later is the Palestinian Authority. This is a description of Israel's war for Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.</p><p>Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. <strong>This is when the number 666 identified an individual. </strong>The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Government. Hamas did not receive salaries. Also, Hamas did not receive the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.</p><p>It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.</p><p>In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.</p><p>Now, concerning the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ismail Haniyeh.</p><p><strong><em>Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.</em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men". </em></strong></p><p><strong><em>Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.</em></strong></p><p>Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.</p><p>The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similitude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistent with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching off-course for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.</p><p>May God bless all who read this letter.</p><p>Michael</p>]]>
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    <item>
        <title>Who is Michael in the Book of Daniel?</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/301/who-is-michael-in-the-book-of-daniel</link>
        <pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2018 05:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Bible Questions</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">301@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>The name <strong>Michael</strong>, what does it means or designates? Is Michael a man, an angel or what? Let's keep in mind the Book of Daniel is a prophetic book (written in the 6th Century B. C.) with correlation to the Book of Revelation (prophetic in nature). What importance does this figure have to do with the Last Book of the Bible (Rev) and today's Christians? CM</p>
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        <title>144,000 of Revelation: Literal or Symbolic</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/1005/144-000-of-revelation-literal-or-symbolic</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 22 Nov 2021 02:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Bible Questions</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
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        <description><![CDATA[<p>The number 144,000 occurs only twice in Scripture—both times in the book of Revelation (Rev, 7:1-8) and (Rev 14:1-5).</p><ol><li>What does this number mean to Christians today?</li><li>Is this the total number of people tore the same when Jesus comes?</li><li>Is it literal or symbolic: 144,000 is 12 x 12 x 1,000?</li><li>Are they the twelve Tribes of Israel?</li><li>What is this number, and who are these people?</li><li>What do people want to know about the 144,000? Is this a particular group or the only amount of people to be saved from the earth? If so, what will happen to the other 6 1/2 billion people on planet earth?</li></ol><p><strong>Any thoughts on the subject matter? CM</strong></p>]]>
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        <title>Notes Toward A Biblical Understanding of The Trinity</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/330/notes-toward-a-biblical-understanding-of-the-trinity</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2018 09:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Biblical Studies</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">330@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>Let's be clear, the word, "Trinity" is not found in the Bible like other words: Millenium, and Incarnation, but its concept and teachings do. Like the names for the days of the week (Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, etc.) are not found in the Bible, however, there is the first day, 2nd day, 3rd day, etc.</p>

<p>The doctrine of the Trinity (Lat. trinitas “tri-unity” or “three-in-oneness”) is one of the most important doctrines of the Christian faith. However, the term “Godhead” is used which is found in Romans 1:20 and Colossians 2:9. Through the word “Godhead” the same idea is expressed by the term “Trinity,” that there are three living person in the Godhead. Let us not forget, there a warning against false teaching found in Paul’s letter to the Colossians. The apostle declares that the hearts of the believers are to be “knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.</p>

<h1 data-id="n-a"> </h1>

<h1 data-id="there-are-two-main-ways-of-explaining-the-trinity-over-the-years">There are two main ways of explaining the Trinity over the years:</h1>

<h2 data-id="trinitarian-speculations">Trinitarian speculations.</h2>

<p>Trinitarian speculations consisted in interpreting the divine nature by analogies drawn from human nature. Many have tried to explain a threefold distinction within the Deity and attempts to explain it are not wanting in number. From the Cappadocian Fathers—Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory Nazianzen—to the so-called Athanasian Creed or the more recent Hegelian and Barthian interpretations, not to mention Augustine, speculative Christian theologians, beginning with a humble confession or the incomprehensibility of the divine nature and the limitations of human speculation, cheerfully went on to interpret the relations of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit within the Deity, each one in terms of then-accepted discrimination of substance. “<strong>Hypostasis</strong>,” “<strong>nature</strong>” and “<strong>person</strong>” were among the preferred terms. [one can see the excessively lengthy and complex course of trinitarian speculation through succeeding centuries (See sources below).</p>

<h2 data-id="the-trinity-of-revelation">The Trinity of Revelation.</h2>

<p>It is a declaration concerning God based on a revelation; not only on the self-disclosure of God but also on a disclosure of the truth of God. Therefore, it is an objective reality and, in the strictest sense, an affirmation of theology. The recognition of the Holy Spirit—as truly fully divine, parallel and equal to the Father is—first of all, the object of a revelation. This is how God wills to make himself known to man.</p>

<p><strong>The divine Triad is met only in God’s revelation</strong>. It is therefore impossible to speak about God’s triune nature independent of the Scriptures. We must abide by the testimony of the OT and NT. This means that <strong>the Bible exceeds all the psychological and physiological analogies</strong>. When we speak of divine “persons” we do so because the Scriptures enforce this conclusion upon us. We do so because this is how the biblical writers under Inspiration try to make us understand the relationship existing between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.</p>

<p>It’s unfortunate that the Trinity of speculation had triumphed over the Trinity of revelation and experience over the years. We hold fast to the Bible revelation of God. Who can know God except he reveals himself?</p>

<h2 data-id="three-distinct-persons-in-the-unity-of-god">Three distinct Persons in the unity of God.</h2>

<p>The word “person,” at this point, requires more particular notice. According to the ordinary rules of language-interpretation of the Scripture, nothing is more certain than that there is but one God. [See for instance Deut 4:39; 2 Ki 19:51; Ps 88:10; Is 44:6,9; Mk 12:29, 32]. This should never be forgotten. It is the very foundation of our doctrine of God.</p>

<p>By the same use of language rules, we also learn that there are three in whom we are to believe. The highest names and perfections are attributed to them throughout the Holy Writings. The Scriptures seem to indicate that these three are all persons because they are described as doing that which only intelligent agents or persons can do. Is not this sufficient authority for applying the term “persons” to them?</p>

<p>Finally, the same authoritative source tells us that they are distinct, not merely in relation to us, as Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier, but in relation to each other as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is sufficient authority for calling them distinct Persons, although the danger always exists that one may tend to tritheism.</p>

<p>Just because some practices, terms or concept overlaps with paganism or mythology it doesn't mean that its origin or teachings are from or depended on them. For example, the Creation and Flood Stories of Bible are not from or dependent upon Babylonian accounts. Upon close examination, it is clearly shown that they are not the same.  Ancient mythologies <strong>DO NOT</strong> drive biblical teachings, principles, concepts or practices.</p>

<p>We are not to surrender God’s revelation of himself "ancient mythology and mystery religions." <strong>It's not true</strong> that "more honest and recognized theological scholars of a Trinitarian background even openly admit and state <strong>that there was no such Trinity teaching in existence at the times of Acts and not until some time later</strong>."</p>

<p>God himself is a mystery, how much more the incarnation or the Trinity. However, that should not trouble us as long as the different aspects of these mysteries are clearly taught in Scripture. Even though we may not be able to comprehend logically the various aspects of the Trinity, we need to try and understand as best as we can the scriptural teaching regarding it. All attempts to explain the Trinity will fall short, “especially when we reflect on the relation of the three persons to the divine essence ... all analogies fail us and we become deeply conscious of the fact that the Trinity is a mystery far beyond our comprehension. It is the incomprehensible glory of the Godhead.” Therefore, we do well to admit that “<em><strong>man cannot comprehend it and make it intelligible. It is intelligible in some of its relations and modes of manifestations, but unintelligible in its essential nature</strong></em>.”  (See Sources below). “There are many mysteries which we do not understand or can explain."</p>

<p><strong>Trinitarian Confessions</strong><br />
Do the apostles think of the Holy Spirit as divine, as a divine person distinct both from the Father and from the Son?</p>

<h2 data-id="several-passages-can-speak-for-themselves">Several passages can speak for themselves:</h2>

<ol><li>Paul mentions all three persons together. In one of his very earliest writings:</li>
</ol><ul><li>“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this, he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 2:13, 14).</li>
</ul><ol start="2"><li>It is evident that God, Christ, and the Spirit are in foremost in Paul’s mind. First Corinthians 12:4-6 agrees with this: “<strong>Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one</strong>.”</li>
<li>The triadic pattern is clearly seen. In an attempt to bring together basic values of the Christian faith Paul ended his second Epistle to the Corinthians with these words: “<strong>The grace or the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all</strong>” (2 Cor 13:14).</li>
</ol><ul><li>When we place things side by side or in position, the three divine persons come together in a clear trinitarian confession. There are many other texts of Paul that reveals when closely examined the influence of a threefold pattern. See for instance Rom 15:30; Gal 4:6; 2 Cor 1:21, 22; Eph 3:14-16; Tit 3:4-6.</li>
</ul><ol start="4"><li>The Gospel of Matthew also ends clearly with the three persons found in their now traditional order: <br />
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).</li>
</ol><p>The fact that in these statements we have a trinitarian formula seems inescapable. I repeat it's erroneous to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is postbiblical and answers a problem which did not occur to the writers or the NT. Later as we look at the Trinity in Scripture… CM</p>

<h2 data-id="sources">Sources:</h2>

<p>-- Louis Berkhof, <strong>Systematic Theology</strong> (Eerdmans, 1941), 88-89. <br />
-- Henry P. vanDusen, <strong>Spirit, Son, and Father</strong> (New York, 1958), 149-177. <br />
-- H.A.W. Turner, <strong>The Pattern of Christian Truth</strong> (London, 1954).] Note, also, the carefully documented Bampton lectures.</p>
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