<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
    xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
    xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
    xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
    <channel>
        <title>Godhead — Christian Debate</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/</link>
        <pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2026 08:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
        <language>en</language>
            <description>Godhead — Christian Debate</description>
    <atom:link href="https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussions/tagged/godhead/feed.rss" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml"/>
    <item>
        <title>An Admission of A Trinitarian</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/978/an-admission-of-a-trinitarian</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2021 03:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Apologetics</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">978@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p><strong>Let me make it clear to all:</strong></p><p>The <strong>New Testament does not have any explicit statement on the Trinity</strong>—apart from <strong>1 John 5:7,</strong> which has been rejected as a medieval addition to the text—but the <strong>Trinitarian evidence is overwhelming</strong>.</p><p>Furthermore, <strong>there are two factors we must all come to grips:</strong></p><ul><li>First, the term, "<strong>Trinity" </strong>is NOT found in Scripture.</li><li>Second,  the Trinity <strong>is a hard concept to understand </strong>to our modern, analytical, and mathematical minds. How can three equal one or one equal three?</li></ul><p>If we are willing to accept the two above points, please, CD Posters/readers and anti-trinitarian, we do find in Scripture <strong>many references to three persons in God. </strong>For many people, this truth<strong> </strong>adds to the confusion in people’s minds. Although the Old Testament emphasizes </p><ul><li>The <strong>exclusive unity of God</strong> (<strong>Deut 6:4; 5:7–11</strong>).</li><li>Also its alluion to the <strong>plurality of God</strong> (<strong>Gen</strong> 1:2, 26; 11:7; 18:1–33; <strong>Exod </strong>23:23). </li></ul><p>Of all <strong>allusions </strong>to this <strong>plurality of God in the Old Testament</strong>, (e.g. <strong>Isa 42:1</strong> and <strong>48:16</strong>), they come very <strong>close to a Trinitarian formulation</strong>. Don't you agree with the points stated above? </p><p>Now, let's settle down and mine the Scriptures on an important subject and stop acting like screaming cats on a "hot tin roof". End this<strong> biblical Guerrilla warfare, </strong>while taking sideswipes at one another's name and character. Jesus is clearly described as <strong>divine in the gospel of John</strong> (John 1:1–3; 20:28). Jesus, himself, proclaims his own <strong>divinity </strong>(John 8:58). </p><p><strong>In the New Testament </strong>we also find clear references to the three persons of the Godhead. </p><ul><li><strong>All three are mentioned at the baptism of Jesus</strong> (Matt 3:16–17).</li><li>During the Lord’s Supper Jesus comforts his disciples with the thought that he and the Father would send the Holy Spirit to guide them after his departure (John 14:16–17).</li><li>All three persons are part of the<strong> baptismal formula found in Jesus’ great commission</strong> to his disciples (Matt 28:19)<ul><li><strong>Paul </strong>readily refers to <strong>all three persons </strong>in many of<strong> his epistles</strong> (Rom 8:9–11; 2 Cor 13:14; 2 Tim 1:3–14; Eph 1:13–14; 3:14–19).</li><li><strong>Peter</strong> acknowledges <strong>the work of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the salvation </strong>of people (1 Pet 1:2).</li><li><strong>John</strong> is a witness of the<strong> Spirit’s testimony regarding Jesus, the Son of God</strong> (1 John 5:5–9). </li><li><strong>The book of Revelation</strong> -- presents <strong>three persons involved in the final events </strong>of this world (Rev 1:4–5; 22:16–18).</li></ul></li></ul><p>Despite these biblical evidences to the triune God, it becomes somewhat ambivalent for some people because <strong>the Holy Spirit </strong>is often referred to <strong>with metaphors of objects: </strong></p><ul><li><strong>A dove</strong> (Matt 3:16)</li><li><strong>The wind</strong> (John 3:8)</li><li><strong>Fire</strong> (Isa 6:6, 7)</li><li><strong>Water</strong> (John 7:37–39)</li><li><strong>Oil </strong>(Matt 25:1–4). </li></ul><p>Moreover, adding to this ambivalence are some New Testament statements that appear to<strong> refer to Jesus as having had a beginning</strong> when he is referred to as <strong>“begotten”</strong> (<em>monogenes</em>) or “<strong>firstborn of all creation</strong>” (<em>prototokos</em>) (John 3:16; Col 1:15).</p><p><strong>The doctrine of the Trinity brings up some issues:</strong></p><p>Historically,  <strong>the doctrine of the Trinity</strong> is closely c<strong>onnected with the Christological disputes</strong> the early church struggled with. T<strong>he early church</strong> through a series of councils: </p><ul><li><strong>Confirmed the eternal divinity of Jesus.</strong></li><li>Opened the way for a <strong>clarification of the relationship between God the Father and Jesu</strong>s. </li></ul><div><div><p><strong><em>“The more emphatic the church became that Christ was God, the more it came under pressure to clarify how Christ related to God.”</em></strong> Alister E. McGrath, <strong><em>Historical Theology: An Introduction to the History of Christian Thought</em></strong><em> </em>(Malden: Blackwell, 1998), 61.</p></div></div><p>In addition, the the early church <strong>needed to clarify the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and</strong> involved acceptance of Jesus as Savior and Lord. This meant that the <strong>Trinity</strong> found its way into the creeds of the church. The Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed confesses in part that:</p><div><div><p>We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, . . . We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. . . . We believe in the <strong><em>Holy Spirit, the Lord</em></strong>, the giver of life, <strong><em>who proceeds from the Father</em></strong>. With the <strong><em>Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified</em></strong>.”</p></div></div><p>Any student of history knows that the<strong> later western versions of the Nicene Creed</strong> <strong>added the clause</strong>: “<em>who proceeds from the Fathe</em>r .” The addition of this clause was one of the issues that led to the great schism between east and west in 1054.</p><p>Until next time, let's search the Scriptures with <strong>an opened mind and little more humility.</strong> Let's allow the spotlight of truth to shine and reveal the organic roots, stems, growth and development of the one God self-revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This important subject must not be bannered about like a common-debate for self-agrandizement. <strong>CM</strong></p><p><br /></p><p><strong>SOURCE: </strong></p><ul><li>G. W. Bromiley, “Trinity,” in Walter A. Elwell, ed., <strong><em>Evangelical Dictionary of Theology</em></strong><em> </em>(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1984), 1112.</li><li>Alister E. McGrath, <strong><em>Historical Theology: An Introduction to the History of Christian Thought</em></strong><em> </em>(Malden: Blackwell, 1998), 61.</li><li>Roger E. Olson, <strong><em>The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition &amp; Reform</em></strong><em> </em>(Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1999), 195–196.</li></ul>]]>
        </description>
    </item>
    <item>
        <title>Proverbs 8:  Creation Account</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/935/proverbs-8-creation-account</link>
        <pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2021 14:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Biblical Studies</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">935@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p><strong>A Little Background:</strong></p><ol><li>Its human authors are referred to as King Solomon <em>(Prov. 1:1–9:18, 10:1–22:16, Proverbs 25–29).</em></li><li>Unidentified “wise men” from the ancient Near Eastern world <em>(Prov. 22:17–24:22, 24:23–34).</em></li><li>The non-Israelite Agur <em>(Prov. 30:1–33). </em></li><li>The book even acknowledges King Hezekiah’s editorial contributions <em>(Prov. 25:1).</em></li><li>The book of Proverbs is filled with practical and down-to-earth advice for daily living.</li><li><strong>The book of Proverbs is a witness to the wisdom that had been accumulated over generations. </strong></li><li>The book of Proverbs <em>is </em>the Word of God because it was under divine inspiration that the authors pulled their materials together.</li><li>In Proverbs, <strong>“wisdom”</strong> is revealed when you acknowledge the Lord “in all your ways” <em>(Prov. 3:6, NKJV); </em>that is, wisdom is living in faith and in obedience; it’s about what it means to be human before the God of Creation.</li></ol><p><strong>Chapter 8</strong></p><ol><li><strong>Proverbs 8, is one of four creation accounts</strong> in Scripture (Genesis 1, Genesis 2, Psalm 104). </li><li><strong>Proverbs 8</strong>, contains<strong> Personification</strong>: attributing human qualities to what is not human (e.g., "Lady Wisdom" and "Lady Folly" in <strong>Proverbs</strong> 8-9).</li><li>Proverbs 8 <strong>reveals a loving Godhead</strong> in intimate and joyous fellowship at Creation, and <strong>Christ</strong>, the Divine Wisdom, <strong>condescending to mediate (build a bridge) between the infinite Godhead and finite creatures</strong>.</li></ol><p><strong>For those who truly know:</strong></p><ol><li>Do the Hebrew <strong>verbs of Proverbs 8:22-25 refer to the birth of wisdom or wisdom's creation?</strong></li></ol><p><br /></p><p>PS: Help me mine the text not promote your bias or point of view. <strong>CM</strong></p>]]>
        </description>
    </item>
    <item>
        <title>A closer look at Matthew 28:19….</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/1014/a-closer-look-at-matthew-28-19</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2021 00:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Biblical Studies</category>
        <dc:creator>Brother Rando</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">1014@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p><a href="https://www.brorando.com/post/a-closer-look-at-matthew-28-19" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">A closer look at Matthew 28:19….</a></p><div>
    <div>
        <a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/uploads/800/6ZQTE4BLQMIR.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer noopener ugc" target="_blank">
            <img src="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/uploads/800/6ZQTE4BLQMIR.png" alt="Bible Prophecy.png" height="323" width="575" /></a>
    </div>
</div>
<p>The scripture at Matthew 28:19 today doesn’t read as it did in the first century. <strong>Matthew who was born of the Levi tribe, first wrote his book in his native tongue</strong>, (<strong>Hebrew</strong>).  So let’s visit the Actual Scripture.  “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations <strong>in MY Name</strong>,” (<a href="http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/matthew-proof.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew 28:19</a>)  <strong><em>Note: </em></strong><em>Scripture is under scrutiny and research for possible correction due to new findings from sources familiar with the deception.</em></p><p>The trinity doctrine never acknowledges Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, <strong>those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. </strong>This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/2-john/1/#v63001007" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">2 John 7</a>) The foreign doctrine removes Jesus Christ by omission and teaches a different Jesus as it promotes a false baptism by replacing Christ with its own doctrine.</p><p>Notice this admission. <strong>The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263: </strong>“<em>The baptismal formula was changed </em><strong><em>from the name of Jesus Christ</em></strong> to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit <em>by the Catholic Church in the second century.</em>”</p><p><strong>Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: </strong></p><ul><li>He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of <strong>Matthew 28:19</strong>. “<em>The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, </em><strong><em>the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome</em></strong><em>.</em>” — Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83.</li></ul><p>That's right, an admission that the baptism text came from the Pagan City of Rome. None of the Apostles baptized anyone in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit in the first century. NONE!</p><p>Scripture also says that by the authority of Jesus, people would be told to turn to God and change the way they think and act so that their sins will be forgiven. This would be told to people from all nations, beginning in the city of Jerusalem. ‘<strong>…and on the basis of his Name,</strong> repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem.’ (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/luke/24/#v42024046-v42024047" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Luke 24:46-47</a>)</p><p><a href="https://www.brorando.com/post/a-closer-look-at-matthew-28-19" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"><strong>Get more details.</strong></a></p>]]>
        </description>
    </item>
    <item>
        <title>Notes Toward A Biblical Understanding of The Trinity</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/330/notes-toward-a-biblical-understanding-of-the-trinity</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2018 09:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Biblical Studies</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">330@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>Let's be clear, the word, "Trinity" is not found in the Bible like other words: Millenium, and Incarnation, but its concept and teachings do. Like the names for the days of the week (Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, etc.) are not found in the Bible, however, there is the first day, 2nd day, 3rd day, etc.</p>

<p>The doctrine of the Trinity (Lat. trinitas “tri-unity” or “three-in-oneness”) is one of the most important doctrines of the Christian faith. However, the term “Godhead” is used which is found in Romans 1:20 and Colossians 2:9. Through the word “Godhead” the same idea is expressed by the term “Trinity,” that there are three living person in the Godhead. Let us not forget, there a warning against false teaching found in Paul’s letter to the Colossians. The apostle declares that the hearts of the believers are to be “knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.</p>

<h1 data-id="n-a"> </h1>

<h1 data-id="there-are-two-main-ways-of-explaining-the-trinity-over-the-years">There are two main ways of explaining the Trinity over the years:</h1>

<h2 data-id="trinitarian-speculations">Trinitarian speculations.</h2>

<p>Trinitarian speculations consisted in interpreting the divine nature by analogies drawn from human nature. Many have tried to explain a threefold distinction within the Deity and attempts to explain it are not wanting in number. From the Cappadocian Fathers—Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory Nazianzen—to the so-called Athanasian Creed or the more recent Hegelian and Barthian interpretations, not to mention Augustine, speculative Christian theologians, beginning with a humble confession or the incomprehensibility of the divine nature and the limitations of human speculation, cheerfully went on to interpret the relations of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit within the Deity, each one in terms of then-accepted discrimination of substance. “<strong>Hypostasis</strong>,” “<strong>nature</strong>” and “<strong>person</strong>” were among the preferred terms. [one can see the excessively lengthy and complex course of trinitarian speculation through succeeding centuries (See sources below).</p>

<h2 data-id="the-trinity-of-revelation">The Trinity of Revelation.</h2>

<p>It is a declaration concerning God based on a revelation; not only on the self-disclosure of God but also on a disclosure of the truth of God. Therefore, it is an objective reality and, in the strictest sense, an affirmation of theology. The recognition of the Holy Spirit—as truly fully divine, parallel and equal to the Father is—first of all, the object of a revelation. This is how God wills to make himself known to man.</p>

<p><strong>The divine Triad is met only in God’s revelation</strong>. It is therefore impossible to speak about God’s triune nature independent of the Scriptures. We must abide by the testimony of the OT and NT. This means that <strong>the Bible exceeds all the psychological and physiological analogies</strong>. When we speak of divine “persons” we do so because the Scriptures enforce this conclusion upon us. We do so because this is how the biblical writers under Inspiration try to make us understand the relationship existing between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.</p>

<p>It’s unfortunate that the Trinity of speculation had triumphed over the Trinity of revelation and experience over the years. We hold fast to the Bible revelation of God. Who can know God except he reveals himself?</p>

<h2 data-id="three-distinct-persons-in-the-unity-of-god">Three distinct Persons in the unity of God.</h2>

<p>The word “person,” at this point, requires more particular notice. According to the ordinary rules of language-interpretation of the Scripture, nothing is more certain than that there is but one God. [See for instance Deut 4:39; 2 Ki 19:51; Ps 88:10; Is 44:6,9; Mk 12:29, 32]. This should never be forgotten. It is the very foundation of our doctrine of God.</p>

<p>By the same use of language rules, we also learn that there are three in whom we are to believe. The highest names and perfections are attributed to them throughout the Holy Writings. The Scriptures seem to indicate that these three are all persons because they are described as doing that which only intelligent agents or persons can do. Is not this sufficient authority for applying the term “persons” to them?</p>

<p>Finally, the same authoritative source tells us that they are distinct, not merely in relation to us, as Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier, but in relation to each other as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is sufficient authority for calling them distinct Persons, although the danger always exists that one may tend to tritheism.</p>

<p>Just because some practices, terms or concept overlaps with paganism or mythology it doesn't mean that its origin or teachings are from or depended on them. For example, the Creation and Flood Stories of Bible are not from or dependent upon Babylonian accounts. Upon close examination, it is clearly shown that they are not the same.  Ancient mythologies <strong>DO NOT</strong> drive biblical teachings, principles, concepts or practices.</p>

<p>We are not to surrender God’s revelation of himself "ancient mythology and mystery religions." <strong>It's not true</strong> that "more honest and recognized theological scholars of a Trinitarian background even openly admit and state <strong>that there was no such Trinity teaching in existence at the times of Acts and not until some time later</strong>."</p>

<p>God himself is a mystery, how much more the incarnation or the Trinity. However, that should not trouble us as long as the different aspects of these mysteries are clearly taught in Scripture. Even though we may not be able to comprehend logically the various aspects of the Trinity, we need to try and understand as best as we can the scriptural teaching regarding it. All attempts to explain the Trinity will fall short, “especially when we reflect on the relation of the three persons to the divine essence ... all analogies fail us and we become deeply conscious of the fact that the Trinity is a mystery far beyond our comprehension. It is the incomprehensible glory of the Godhead.” Therefore, we do well to admit that “<em><strong>man cannot comprehend it and make it intelligible. It is intelligible in some of its relations and modes of manifestations, but unintelligible in its essential nature</strong></em>.”  (See Sources below). “There are many mysteries which we do not understand or can explain."</p>

<p><strong>Trinitarian Confessions</strong><br />
Do the apostles think of the Holy Spirit as divine, as a divine person distinct both from the Father and from the Son?</p>

<h2 data-id="several-passages-can-speak-for-themselves">Several passages can speak for themselves:</h2>

<ol><li>Paul mentions all three persons together. In one of his very earliest writings:</li>
</ol><ul><li>“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this, he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess. 2:13, 14).</li>
</ul><ol start="2"><li>It is evident that God, Christ, and the Spirit are in foremost in Paul’s mind. First Corinthians 12:4-6 agrees with this: “<strong>Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one</strong>.”</li>
<li>The triadic pattern is clearly seen. In an attempt to bring together basic values of the Christian faith Paul ended his second Epistle to the Corinthians with these words: “<strong>The grace or the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all</strong>” (2 Cor 13:14).</li>
</ol><ul><li>When we place things side by side or in position, the three divine persons come together in a clear trinitarian confession. There are many other texts of Paul that reveals when closely examined the influence of a threefold pattern. See for instance Rom 15:30; Gal 4:6; 2 Cor 1:21, 22; Eph 3:14-16; Tit 3:4-6.</li>
</ul><ol start="4"><li>The Gospel of Matthew also ends clearly with the three persons found in their now traditional order: <br />
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19).</li>
</ol><p>The fact that in these statements we have a trinitarian formula seems inescapable. I repeat it's erroneous to say that the doctrine of the Trinity is postbiblical and answers a problem which did not occur to the writers or the NT. Later as we look at the Trinity in Scripture… CM</p>

<h2 data-id="sources">Sources:</h2>

<p>-- Louis Berkhof, <strong>Systematic Theology</strong> (Eerdmans, 1941), 88-89. <br />
-- Henry P. vanDusen, <strong>Spirit, Son, and Father</strong> (New York, 1958), 149-177. <br />
-- H.A.W. Turner, <strong>The Pattern of Christian Truth</strong> (London, 1954).] Note, also, the carefully documented Bampton lectures.</p>
]]>
        </description>
    </item>
   </channel>
</rss>
