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        <title>Christians — Christian Debate</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/</link>
        <pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2026 17:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
        <language>en</language>
            <description>Christians — Christian Debate</description>
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        <title>Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #3</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/1118/scriptures-that-trinitarians-dont-want-you-to-know-about-3</link>
        <pubDate>Fri, 16 Jun 2023 03:23:54 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Bible Questions</category>
        <dc:creator>Brother Rando</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">1118@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and <strong>death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:</strong> and <strong>they were judged every man according to their works.</strong>” (<a href="https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Revelation-20-13/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Rev 20:13</a>)</p><p>My Story</p><p><a href="https://jehovahwitnessqhub.wordpress.com/2017/08/09/what-is-it-like-to-die/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">What is it like to die?</a></p><p>I first learned about death through a Bible Study. <strong>After learning the truth about death and that death is the last enemy that will be conquered,</strong> I wanted to learn more. Here’s a few scriptures that may give you some Relief and Comfort.</p><p>“For the living know that they will die, but <strong>the dead know nothing at all</strong>, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten.” (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/ecclesiastes/9/#v21009005" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Ecclesiastes 9:5</a>)</p><p><strong>My Catholic upbringing always taught me that hell was an eternal place of torment and inescapable.</strong> This religious teaching never sat well with me. I could never figure out why the God of Love would do such a thing.</p><p>Then at my Bible Study, I came across this scripture, “hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (<a href="https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Revelation-20-13/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Rev 20:13</a>) This blew my mind because it connected the dots for me.<strong> See, the priests would take money from the parishioners to pray for their dead loved ones, telling us this might get them out of hell.</strong> All the while, preaching that hell is ETERNAL. Did they know something I didn’t, I wondered? This was nothing but a ponzi scheme.</p><p>Other scriptures that gave me Relief and Comfort is the good news about the Resurrection. “And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that <strong>there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous</strong>.” (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/acts/24/#v44024015" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Acts 24:15</a>) I was elated to learn this about my loved ones that have passed in death.</p><p>Then Jesus Christ told his followers, “Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out” (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/john/5/#v43005028" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">John 5:28</a>)</p>]]>
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        <title>Paradise… Will it come?</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/1043/paradise-will-it-come</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2021 01:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Bible Questions</category>
        <dc:creator>Brother Rando</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">1043@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
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            <img src="https://jehovahwitnessqhub.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/3be0a38d741ff5b79a1382704fef6306.gif?w=622" alt="3be0a38d741ff5b79a1382704fef6306.gif?w=622" height="180" width="320" /></a>
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<p><br /></p><h5>Would you like to live on a Paradise Earth? </h5><p>Think of it. No more sickness, nor more suffering, no more death. Seems impossible doesn't it? Today, we live in a system that thrives on greed and disregarding the downtrodden. The Bible can help you make marvelous changes to you Life for the Better. You can live a quiet and peaceful Life in a world full of turmoil.</p><p>Why do so many religions reject the Good News about God's Kingdom? Why do so many religions join political systems to engage in maiming and killing one another? <a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/control-world-tract/who-controls-the-world" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Who Really Controls the World?</a> The Answer may Surprise You. "Who can conquer the world? Is it not the one who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?" (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/1-john/5/#v62005005" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">1 John 5;5</a>)</p><p>When sharing he Good News of God's Kingdom, True Christians would share several staples of the Lord's Prayer.</p><ol><li>   True Christians would Sanctify the Father's Name by making it known. (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/6/#v40006009" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Matthew 6:9</a>)</li><li>   True Christians would Pray for God's Kingdom to come. (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/6/#v40006009" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Matthew 6:10</a>)</li><li>   True Christians would Pray the Father's Will to <a href="https://www.jw.org/ase/publications/books/good-news-from-god/what-is-gods-kingdom/video-kingdom-come/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">take place on Earth</a> as it is in Heaven.</li></ol><p>As True Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses obey the teachings of Jesus Christ, doing the same work Jesus Christ started two thousand years ago. Jesus stated, You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous." (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/5/#v40005043" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Matthew 5:43-45</a>) You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/matthew/5/#v40005048" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Matthew 5:48</a>)</p><p>"Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/psalms/37/#v19037010" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Psalms 37:9-10</a>)</p><p>"The righteous will possess the earth, And they will live forever on it" (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/psalms/37/#v19037029" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Psalms 37:29</a>) Trust in Jehovah and do what is good; Reside in the earth, and act with faithfulness. (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/psalms/37/#v19037003" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Psalm 37:3</a>) </p><div data-embedjson="{&quot;body&quot;:&quot;Today’s world is far from the Paradise God meant it to be. However, God has not changed his mind; he will fulfill his original purpose.&quot;,&quot;photoUrl&quot;:&quot;https:\/\/assetsnffrgf-a.akamaihd.net\/assets\/m\/2021087\/univ\/art\/2021087_univ_sqr_xl.jpg&quot;,&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https:\/\/www.jw.org\/en\/library\/magazines\/watchtower-no2-2021-may-jun\/new-world-paradise\/&quot;,&quot;embedType&quot;:&quot;link&quot;,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;The Paradise New World That Is Near!&quot;}">
    <a href="https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no2-2021-may-jun/new-world-paradise/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">
        https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-no2-2021-may-jun/new-world-paradise/
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        <title>A New Craziness in America</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/906/a-new-craziness-in-america</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2021 15:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>News &amp; Current Events</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">906@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p><strong>PREMIUM </strong>Monthly unit sales of guns in the U.S. from 2019 to 2020, by type<br /></p><p>Published by <a href="https://www.statista.com/aboutus/our-research-commitment" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Statista Research Department</a>, Nov 27, 2020</p><p> In August 2020, around one million handguns were sold in the United States. <a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107546/monthly-year-over-year-sales-growth-of-firearms-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">In August 2020, handgun sales in the United States grew by 66 percent when compared to the same period in the previous year.</a></p><div data-embedjson="{&quot;body&quot;:&quot;In August 2020, around one million handguns were sold in the United States.&quot;,&quot;photoUrl&quot;:&quot;https:\/\/cdn.statcdn.com\/Statistic\/1105000\/1107651-blank-355.png&quot;,&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https:\/\/www.statista.com\/statistics\/1107651\/monthly-unit-sales-of-firearms-by-type-us\/&quot;,&quot;embedType&quot;:&quot;link&quot;,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;Firearms: monthly unit sales by type U.S. 2020 | Statista&quot;}">
    <a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107651/monthly-unit-sales-of-firearms-by-type-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">
        https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107651/monthly-unit-sales-of-firearms-by-type-us/
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</div><p><br /></p><p><strong>What is this madness for America's need to buy more guns? </strong>Has she not learn that<strong> </strong>Firearm ownership leads to Firearm production and sale, Firearm related crime, deaths and injuries,  and increase of deaths by accident, etc., <a href="https://www.statista.com/topics/1750/violent-crime-in-the-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">in the U.S.</a>? See the footprints of this madness. <strong>CM</strong></p><p><strong>The most important statistics</strong></p><ul><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/249740/percentage-of-households-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2020</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/623453/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-gender/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership in the U.S. by gender 2020</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/623356/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-ethnicity/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership in the U.S. by ethnicity 2020</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/623409/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-age/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership in the U.S. by age 2020</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/623418/gun-ownership-in-the-us-by-education-level/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership in the U.S. by education level 2020</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/625196/firearm-ownership-rate-by-proximity-to-urban-centers-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Firearm ownership rate, by proximity to urban centers U.S. 2017</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/249773/percentage-of-population-in-the-us-owning-a-gun-by-region/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership in the U.S. 2017, by region</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/249775/percentage-of-population-in-the-us-owning-a-gun-by-party-affiliation/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Gun ownership, by party affiliation U.S. 2020</a></li></ul><p><br /></p><h2><strong>Further Content:</strong> You might find this interesting as well</h2><h3>STATISTICS</h3><ul><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107546/monthly-year-over-year-sales-growth-of-firearms-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Monthly sales growth of guns in the U.S. from 2019 to 2020</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/215382/number-of-pistols-manufactured-in-the-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Number of pistols manufactured in the U.S. 1986-2018</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/259016/public-perception-on-the-drop-of-gun-crimes-in-america/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Public perception of gun crime in America 2013</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/312550/homicides-with-firearms-in-latin-america-and-caribbean-countries/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Homicides with firearms in Latin America and Caribbean countries, 2009</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/258969/number-of-non-fatal-firearm-crimes-in-the-united-states/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Number of non-fatal firearm crimes U.S. 2000-2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/259010/non-fatal-firearm-crimerate-in-the-us-by-ethnicity/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Non-fatal firearm crimerate in the U.S. 2011, by ethnicity</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/1055764/handgun-import-value-brazil/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Brazil: handgun import value 2016-2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/1055824/number-handguns-imported-brazil/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Brazil: handgun import volume 2016-2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/258656/sports-firearms-wholesale-sales-in-the-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Wholesale sales of sports firearms in the U.S. 2007-2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/625277/reasons-for-gun-ownership-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Reasons for firearm ownership U.S. 2015</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/625319/methods-of-firearm-acquisition-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Methods of firearm acquisition U.S. 2015</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/215647/number-of-firearms-processed-in-the-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Number of firearms processed U.S. 1990-2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/272952/survey-on-easy-access-to-guns-as-a-factor-to-blame-for-mass-shootings/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Comparison: easy access to guns to blame for mass shootings in the US, 2011 and 2013</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/520764/canada-firearms-licenses-held-by-type/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Canada: number of individual firearms licenses held, by type 2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/215666/number-of-federal-firearm-dealers-in-the-us/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Number of federal firearm dealers U.S. 1975-2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/520683/canada-firearms-license-revocations-reasons/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Canada: reasons for firearms license revocations 2019</a></li><li><a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/866566/distribution-of-handguns-imports-into-denmark-by-country/" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Distribution of handguns imports into Denmark 2016, by country</a></li></ul><p>Guns were made to kill. A Christian <strong>SHOULDN'T</strong> buy, owned or need a gun. Should not a people seek their God for protection? CD Christians don't be deceived or join this American madness -- buying a gun. <strong>Choice ye this whom you would rely upon for safety and protection, a gun or Christ</strong>? If you have<strong> a gun </strong>in your<strong> home, </strong>remove it <strong>immediately! CM</strong> </p><p>To be perfectly clear:</p><p>I call on <strong>all families and Christians</strong> to remove <strong>GUNS</strong> from their homes. Let heaven's abiding angels protect and keep you and yours safe. <strong>CM</strong></p>]]>
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        <title>Christianity without Christ: Is it Doable, Self-deception, or &quot;Fool-ology&quot;*?</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/1026/christianity-without-christ-is-it-doable-self-deception-or-fool-ology</link>
        <pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2021 16:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Apologetics</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">1026@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>In the CD forums, posts come from all angles and expressions: from the sublimed to the ridiculous. One is Christianity. You ask, how could this be? Several posters, namely <a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/profile/BroRando" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"> @BroRando</a>, <a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/profile/Bill_Coley" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"> @Bill_Coley</a>, JWs Organization, and recently departed Wolfgang, to name a few, claims to accept the "inspiration" of the Bible, Jesus as Lord, Messiah, pray to Him and look to Him for salvation. </p><p>Yet, at the same time, they deny Jesus' Divinity. Claimed Jesus was born (just a man) or, at best, an angel who receives worship but shouldn't. Believe this, Jesus was has returned, and there is no resurrection. They questioned his birth, his name, self-identification, His oneness: Co-equal, co-eternal, with the Father and the Holy Spirit (God). They seem to exalt human reason above faith and revelation. Above all, this Jesus, they claimed to love, call on, pray to and teach others, is "<strong><em>a god</em></strong>" according to John 1:1 (<strong>NWT</strong>), and a few obscured Bible Translations (done by individuals, lacked reliable gk/Heb texts, or had access to the latest biblical finds).</p><p>CD Posters, can they love Christ, accept him, and deny him simultaneously? I am asking the remaining <strong>Anti-Trinitarian Trio</strong> (<a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/profile/BroRando" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"> @BroRando</a>, <a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/profile/Bill_Coley" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"> @Bill_Coley</a>, and <a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/profile/theMadJW" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"> @theMadJW </a>) in a simple straight forward way to reconcile this apparent contradiction. I prefer each one to respond individually, but I will accept a joint response. </p><p>Until then, I would like to name above: Are you a <strong>practitioner of self-deception </strong>and <strong>knowingly peddling Fool-ology</strong>? Correct me if I am wrong if I misrepresented your position. By all means, state your position clearly and concisely. It looks like this remaining anti-Trinitarian Trio is trying to have its religious cake and eat it too. <strong>CM</strong></p><p><br /></p><p>*<strong>Fool-ology --</strong> I define this as the study of foolishness. <strong>CM</strong></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><strong>A source to consider :</strong></p><ul><li>Bentivegna, J. “A Christianity without Christ by Theophilus of Antioch.” <strong><em>Studia Patristica </em>13 (1975):</strong> 107-130.</li></ul>]]>
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        <title>N.R.A. Declares Bankruptcy: The Beginning of the End or Clever Maneuvering?</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/884/n-r-a-declares-bankruptcy-the-beginning-of-the-end-or-clever-maneuvering</link>
        <pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2021 18:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>News &amp; Current Events</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">884@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<div data-embedjson="{&quot;body&quot;:&quot;The group, which said it planned to reincorporate in Texas, is currently being investigated by New York’s attorney general, who is seeking to dissolve it.&quot;,&quot;photoUrl&quot;:&quot;https:\/\/static01.nyt.com\/images\/2021\/01\/15\/us\/politics\/15NRA\/15NRA-facebookJumbo.jpg&quot;,&quot;url&quot;:&quot;https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2021\/01\/15\/us\/politics\/nra-bankruptcy.html&quot;,&quot;embedType&quot;:&quot;link&quot;,&quot;name&quot;:&quot;N.R.A. Declares Bankruptcy and Seeks to Exit New York&quot;}">
    <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/us/politics/nra-bankruptcy.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">
        https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/15/us/politics/nra-bankruptcy.html
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</div><p>This is good news for the many families who loss loved ones to an organization that promotes the purchase and the usage of <strong>guns, an instrument that has no other purpose than to kill (man/animals). </strong>It's a first step, but a good step. God has heard the cries and have seen the tears of-the-many, over guns and this organization.</p><p>The NRA, plans to reincorporate in Texas, is currently being investigated by New York’s attorney general, who is seeking to dissolve it. They can run, but they can't hide. I agree with Ms. James, that  “<strong><em>The N.R.A.’s claimed financial status has finally met its moral status: bankrupt</em></strong>”. This organization need to be brought to it knees and die a painful death like so many have done by the weapons they promoted and endorsed over the years.</p><div><div><p>“<strong><em>The N.R.A.’s claimed financial status has finally met its moral status: bankrupt,</em></strong>” Ms. James said in a statement Friday. “<strong><em>While we review this filing, we will not allow the N.R.A. to use this or any other tactic to evade accountability and my office’s oversight</em></strong>.” - Letitia James, the New York Attorney General.</p></div></div><p>The NRA days are numbered, like Mr. Trump. I take comfort in knowing that t<strong>he wheels of the law maybe slow, but its rulings are effective</strong>.</p><p><strong>To all CD Posters,</strong></p><p>Guns were made to kill, can't you <strong>see</strong>;</p><p>That's why the <strong>NRA</strong> is filing for <strong>bankruptcy</strong>.</p><p>I call on all families and Christians to remove <strong>GUNS</strong> from their homes. Let heaven's abiding angels protect and keep you and yours safe. <strong>CM</strong></p>]]>
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        <title>Plain Talk On The Trinity</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/917/plain-talk-on-the-trinity</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 27 Apr 2021 04:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Apologetics</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">917@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>“<strong>The Trinity”</strong> is not a biblical term. However, “<strong><em>it has been found a convenient designation for the one God self-revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit</em></strong>” (G. W. Bromiley, “Trinity,” in Walter A. Elwell, ed., <strong><em>Evangelical Dictionary of Theology</em></strong><em> </em>(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1984), 1112.</p><p><strong>Trinity is a hard concept to understand. There are three persons in God. </strong>Yet, the<strong> Old Testament emphasizes</strong>: </p><ul><li>The <strong>exclusive unity of God</strong> (Deut 6:4; 5:7–11).</li><li>Alludes to the <strong>plurality of God</strong> (Gen 1:2, 26; 11:7; 18:1–33; Exod 23:23). </li><li>This <strong>plurality of God in the OT</strong>, Isa 42:1 and 48:16, comes very close to a Trinitarian formulation.</li></ul><p><strong>The New Testament</strong> <strong>does not have any explicit statement</strong> on the Trinity—</p><ul><li><strong>1 John 5:7</strong>, is <strong>referred to</strong> by many but it <strong>has been rejected as a medieval addition </strong>to the text.</li></ul><p>Notwithstanding, Trinitarian <strong>evidence is overwhelming</strong>. </p><ul><li>Jesus is clearly described as divine in the gospel of John (John 1:1–3; 20:28).</li><li>Jesus, himself, <strong>proclaims his own divinity</strong> (John 8:58). </li><li>In the <strong>NT</strong>, we find <strong>references to the three persons of the Godhead:</strong> <ul><li>All three are mentioned at the baptism of Jesus (Matt 3:16–17).</li><li>During the Lord’s Supper, Jesus comforts his disciples with the thought that he and the Father would send the Holy Spirit to guide them after his departure (John 14:16–17).</li><li>All three persons <strong>are part of the baptismal formula found in Jesus’ great commission</strong> to his disciples (Matt 28:19).</li><li><strong>Paul </strong>readily refers to all three persons in many of his epistles (Rom 8:9–11; 2 Cor 13:14; 2 Tim 1:3–14; Eph 1:13–14; 3:14–19).</li><li><strong>Peter </strong>acknowledges the work of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the salvation of people (1 Pet 1:2).</li><li><strong>John</strong> is a witness of the Spirit’s testimony regarding Jesus, the Son of God (1 John 5:5–9). </li><li><strong>The book of Revelation</strong> also presents three persons involved in the final events of this world (Rev 1:4–5; 22:16–18).</li></ul></li></ul><p>All these biblical evidence to the triune God causes concern for some people because the <strong>Holy Spirit is often referred to with metaphors of objects:</strong> </p><ul><li><strong>A dove</strong> (Matt 3:16)</li><li>The <strong>wind</strong> (John 3:8)</li><li><strong>Fire</strong> (Isa 6:6, 7)</li><li><strong>Water</strong> (John 7:37–39)</li><li><strong>Oil</strong> (Matt 25:1–4)</li></ul><p>In addition, <strong>New Testament </strong>statements appear to refer to <strong>Jesus as having had a beginning</strong> when he is referred to as “<strong>begotten</strong>” (<em>monogenes</em>) or “<strong>firstborn of all creation</strong>” (<em>prototokos</em>) (John 3:16; Col 1:15).</p><p><strong>In history,</strong> the doctrine of the Trinity in the early church struggled with the Trinity. When the early church addressed it through a series of councils confirming the eternal divinity of Jesus. With the acceptance of Jesus as Savior and Lord, the Trinity quickly found its way into the creeds of the church.</p><p><strong>The Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed</strong></p><div><div><p><strong><em>"</em></strong><em>We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, . . . We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. . . . We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified</em>.” -- Quoted from Roger E. Olson, <strong><em>The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition &amp; Reform </em></strong>(Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1999), 195–196.</p></div></div><p><strong>Please Note:  </strong>Later western versions of the Nicene Creed added the <strong><em>filioque </em>clause</strong>:</p><div><div><p><strong><em> “who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” </em></strong></p></div></div><p>The <strong>addition of this clause</strong> was one of the issues that led to the <strong>great schism between east and west in 1054</strong>.</p><p><strong>The early church fathers gave us the vocabulary we use and discuss today:</strong></p><ul><li><strong>Irenaeus</strong> spoke of the “<strong><em>economy of salvation</em></strong>,” in which each member of the Godhead has a distinct yet related role. </li><li><strong>Tertullian</strong> argued that “<strong>substance</strong>” is what unites while “person” is what distinguishes the members of the Godhead. “<strong><em>The three persons of the Trinity are distinct, yet not divided, different yet not separate or independent of each other</em></strong>.” </li><li><strong>The eastern Cappadocian fathers</strong> expanded on Tertullian’s thought and tended to emphasize the distinct individuality of the three persons while safeguarding their unity by stressing the fact that both the Son and the Spirit derived from the Father. <strong>Note: </strong>Cappadocian fathers, Orthodox theology teaches that t<strong>he Son </strong>is the<strong> “<em>only begotten</em>” </strong>of the Father and the Holy Spirit<strong> “<em>proceeds</em>” </strong>from the Father. <ul><li>They spoke of one “<strong><em>substance</em></strong>” (<em>ousia</em>) in three “<strong><em>persons</em></strong>” (<em>hypostases</em>).” </li></ul></li></ul><p>One needs to be aware the that vocabulary and thought used today <strong>assumed ancient Greek dualism and metaphysics</strong>, which are very distant and confusing to us now.</p><p><strong>Augustine's theology</strong> of the Trinity was based on the concept of<strong> relationship</strong> and on the <strong>bond of love between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit</strong>. This doctrine continued to experienced challenges to this day.</p><ul><li><strong>Arianism </strong>holds that the <strong>Son was created</strong> by nature and did <strong>not exist before the Father </strong>brought him into existence. As such the <strong>Son is subordinate to the Father’s authority</strong> (subordinationism). <strong><em>Arians</em></strong> have also consistently <em>denied the personhood of the Holy Spirit</em>.</li></ul><p>The many forms of <strong>Modalism</strong>: </p><ul><li><strong>Sabellianism -- </strong>teaches that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or manifestations of the same God at different times. </li><li> <strong>Monarchianism</strong> --  is a form of modalism that denied the plurality of God. It holds that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are a succession of modes or operations; they are not separate persons.</li><li><strong>Socinianism</strong> had been criticizing the doctrine of the Trinity on both biblical and rational grounds.</li></ul><p>I don't <strong>accept the traditional Platonic dualistic worldview</strong> and<strong> metaphysics</strong> that were foundational to the church fathers’ theology of the Trinity, one of these being the concept of the <strong>immortality of the soul</strong>.</p><p>Do we have <strong>common ground on the development</strong> of this doctrine thus far?  In view of the texts cited above isn't it clear that Trinitarian <strong>evidence is overwhelming? CM</strong></p>]]>
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        <title>Do Christians and Jews worship the same God?</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/778/do-christians-and-jews-worship-the-same-god</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 04 Feb 2020 05:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Apologetics</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">778@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>An old thread asked:  "Do Christians and Muslims worship the same God"? <a href="https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/5914#Comment_5914" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">https://www.christiandiscourse.net/discussion/comment/5914#Comment_5914</a></p><p>1. What do you believe is the consensus of the cited thread above?</p><p>Consider the current thread, basically, the same question, except for the ending: "<strong><em>Do Christians and Jews worship the same God"</em></strong>? Is there a set standard to worshipping God? If so, what is it? If not, Why not?</p><p><strong>Mitch and Jan</strong>, considering the current OP ["<em>Do Christians and Jews worship the same God"</em>?] <strong>do you want to change your response or outlook </strong>on the <strong>Bible, Jesus, and the way of salvation</strong> when the <strong>Muslims</strong> were the point of focus, but, now the Jews? If so, why? If not, why not? This topic is one, like many others, that calls for the serious-minded and sober thinkers. </p><p>We need to let this year (2020) be the year of <strong>addressing topics</strong> (original thoughts and/or quoted sources) and not the person or personalities. I would even invite GaoLu to chime back in with the new subject matter at hand. He and all former CD Users still have access to these forums. </p><p>We must avoid personal attacks, driven, many times, by inflated egos. Don't let your political persuasion influence or color your biblical knowledge and understanding. Again, we have to want to do better. Don't you think the times demand it? <strong>Please address the topic at hand, the best way you can! CM</strong></p>]]>
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        <title>Christians in Israel</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/283/christians-in-israel</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2018 22:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>News &amp; Current Events</category>
        <dc:creator>Mitchell</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">283@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div>
  <p>A Christian community in Israel fights to preserve its heritage and identity, while serving in the armed forces to protect the Jewish State that gives them freedom.</p>
</div></blockquote>

<p><span data-youtube="youtube-R4t2NX7YG54?autoplay=1"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4t2NX7YG54"><img src="https://img.youtube.com/vi/R4t2NX7YG54/0.jpg" width="640" height="385" border="0" alt="image" /></a></span></p>
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        <title>Heartless American 2.0</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/521/heartless-american-2-0</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2018 01:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>News &amp; Current Events</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">521@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>Wake up CD,<br />
As we speak (type), there are <strong>12 million people (many are children) facing an extreme humanitarian crisis</strong> because of a <strong>US support of Saudis bombing in Yemen</strong>. Americans, through its white Nationalist, President Trump, seems to HATE women and CHILDREN, in the so-called "land of the free and home of the brave." Where is the outrage, the cry, to halt the bombing with a denunciation of "shame"! Where are the voices of the American Christians and the ones to whom they said, God put into office?</p>

<p>These children are the same ones the so-called "right to life" encourage women to have their babies (even after a forcible rape) then <strong>allows armies to have a free hand to bomb children, separate them from their parents at the American borders, and cut off medical services to the Palestinians Refugees</strong>.  America's disregard for children, at home and abroad, is enough to make God repented He has made the man. Even <strong>the sun hate to show its face on a land it once enjoys smiling upon</strong>. A day will come when America will cry unto heaven and her prayers would not be heard until she repents of her stony heart. Republicans, Christians, <strong>Americans, urge a ceasefire and supply aid to the vast sea of humanity (mostly children) in dire straits in Yemen</strong>. God, who is opened to your will? CM</p>
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        <title>Vengeance In The Bible: Whose Job Is It Anyway?</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/294/vengeance-in-the-bible-whose-job-is-it-anyway</link>
        <pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2018 05:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Apologetics</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">294@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p>There are a number of questions below I would like you to consider from a biblical perspective with practical suggestions for today's society. Many people are frightened, hurt and angry. This, unfortunately, includes Christians. They are buying guns and even joined the NRA.<br />
1. Is there ever a time for a Christian to "get even?" If so, when and how? <br />
2. Doesn't the Bible teaches "an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth?" <br />
3. Should Christians let people walk all over them? <br />
4. What about examples in the Bible when God directed a people to slay another group? Isn't that revenge?<br />
5. Is there a difference of vengeance in the OT and the NT?<br />
6. Is there a difference in reflexive response and vengeance?<br />
7. In a world of crime, hurt and bullying, how do people in general and Christians in particular, respond to a deep hurt or loss?</p>
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        <title>Being a Christian in the Middle East</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/284/being-a-christian-in-the-middle-east</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2018 22:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>News &amp; Current Events</category>
        <dc:creator>Mitchell</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">284@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote><div>
  <p>What is it like being a Christian in today's turbulent Middle East? In this Israel Collective film two Christians, an Israeli and a Palestinian, share their stories.</p>
</div></blockquote>

<p><span data-youtube="youtube-zlWKzNDmDFI?autoplay=1"><a rel="nofollow" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlWKzNDmDFI"><img src="https://img.youtube.com/vi/zlWKzNDmDFI/0.jpg" width="640" height="385" border="0" alt="image" /></a></span></p>
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