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        <title>baptismal formula — Christian Debate</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/</link>
        <pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2026 10:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
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            <description>baptismal formula — Christian Debate</description>
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        <title>An Admission of A Trinitarian</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/978/an-admission-of-a-trinitarian</link>
        <pubDate>Tue, 12 Oct 2021 03:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Apologetics</category>
        <dc:creator>C Mc</dc:creator>
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        <description><![CDATA[<p><strong>Let me make it clear to all:</strong></p><p>The <strong>New Testament does not have any explicit statement on the Trinity</strong>—apart from <strong>1 John 5:7,</strong> which has been rejected as a medieval addition to the text—but the <strong>Trinitarian evidence is overwhelming</strong>.</p><p>Furthermore, <strong>there are two factors we must all come to grips:</strong></p><ul><li>First, the term, "<strong>Trinity" </strong>is NOT found in Scripture.</li><li>Second,  the Trinity <strong>is a hard concept to understand </strong>to our modern, analytical, and mathematical minds. How can three equal one or one equal three?</li></ul><p>If we are willing to accept the two above points, please, CD Posters/readers and anti-trinitarian, we do find in Scripture <strong>many references to three persons in God. </strong>For many people, this truth<strong> </strong>adds to the confusion in people’s minds. Although the Old Testament emphasizes </p><ul><li>The <strong>exclusive unity of God</strong> (<strong>Deut 6:4; 5:7–11</strong>).</li><li>Also its alluion to the <strong>plurality of God</strong> (<strong>Gen</strong> 1:2, 26; 11:7; 18:1–33; <strong>Exod </strong>23:23). </li></ul><p>Of all <strong>allusions </strong>to this <strong>plurality of God in the Old Testament</strong>, (e.g. <strong>Isa 42:1</strong> and <strong>48:16</strong>), they come very <strong>close to a Trinitarian formulation</strong>. Don't you agree with the points stated above? </p><p>Now, let's settle down and mine the Scriptures on an important subject and stop acting like screaming cats on a "hot tin roof". End this<strong> biblical Guerrilla warfare, </strong>while taking sideswipes at one another's name and character. Jesus is clearly described as <strong>divine in the gospel of John</strong> (John 1:1–3; 20:28). Jesus, himself, proclaims his own <strong>divinity </strong>(John 8:58). </p><p><strong>In the New Testament </strong>we also find clear references to the three persons of the Godhead. </p><ul><li><strong>All three are mentioned at the baptism of Jesus</strong> (Matt 3:16–17).</li><li>During the Lord’s Supper Jesus comforts his disciples with the thought that he and the Father would send the Holy Spirit to guide them after his departure (John 14:16–17).</li><li>All three persons are part of the<strong> baptismal formula found in Jesus’ great commission</strong> to his disciples (Matt 28:19)<ul><li><strong>Paul </strong>readily refers to <strong>all three persons </strong>in many of<strong> his epistles</strong> (Rom 8:9–11; 2 Cor 13:14; 2 Tim 1:3–14; Eph 1:13–14; 3:14–19).</li><li><strong>Peter</strong> acknowledges <strong>the work of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the salvation </strong>of people (1 Pet 1:2).</li><li><strong>John</strong> is a witness of the<strong> Spirit’s testimony regarding Jesus, the Son of God</strong> (1 John 5:5–9). </li><li><strong>The book of Revelation</strong> -- presents <strong>three persons involved in the final events </strong>of this world (Rev 1:4–5; 22:16–18).</li></ul></li></ul><p>Despite these biblical evidences to the triune God, it becomes somewhat ambivalent for some people because <strong>the Holy Spirit </strong>is often referred to <strong>with metaphors of objects: </strong></p><ul><li><strong>A dove</strong> (Matt 3:16)</li><li><strong>The wind</strong> (John 3:8)</li><li><strong>Fire</strong> (Isa 6:6, 7)</li><li><strong>Water</strong> (John 7:37–39)</li><li><strong>Oil </strong>(Matt 25:1–4). </li></ul><p>Moreover, adding to this ambivalence are some New Testament statements that appear to<strong> refer to Jesus as having had a beginning</strong> when he is referred to as <strong>“begotten”</strong> (<em>monogenes</em>) or “<strong>firstborn of all creation</strong>” (<em>prototokos</em>) (John 3:16; Col 1:15).</p><p><strong>The doctrine of the Trinity brings up some issues:</strong></p><p>Historically,  <strong>the doctrine of the Trinity</strong> is closely c<strong>onnected with the Christological disputes</strong> the early church struggled with. T<strong>he early church</strong> through a series of councils: </p><ul><li><strong>Confirmed the eternal divinity of Jesus.</strong></li><li>Opened the way for a <strong>clarification of the relationship between God the Father and Jesu</strong>s. </li></ul><div><div><p><strong><em>“The more emphatic the church became that Christ was God, the more it came under pressure to clarify how Christ related to God.”</em></strong> Alister E. McGrath, <strong><em>Historical Theology: An Introduction to the History of Christian Thought</em></strong><em> </em>(Malden: Blackwell, 1998), 61.</p></div></div><p>In addition, the the early church <strong>needed to clarify the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit and</strong> involved acceptance of Jesus as Savior and Lord. This meant that the <strong>Trinity</strong> found its way into the creeds of the church. The Niceo-Constantinopolitan creed confesses in part that:</p><div><div><p>We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, . . . We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. . . . We believe in the <strong><em>Holy Spirit, the Lord</em></strong>, the giver of life, <strong><em>who proceeds from the Father</em></strong>. With the <strong><em>Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified</em></strong>.”</p></div></div><p>Any student of history knows that the<strong> later western versions of the Nicene Creed</strong> <strong>added the clause</strong>: “<em>who proceeds from the Fathe</em>r .” The addition of this clause was one of the issues that led to the great schism between east and west in 1054.</p><p>Until next time, let's search the Scriptures with <strong>an opened mind and little more humility.</strong> Let's allow the spotlight of truth to shine and reveal the organic roots, stems, growth and development of the one God self-revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This important subject must not be bannered about like a common-debate for self-agrandizement. <strong>CM</strong></p><p><br /></p><p><strong>SOURCE: </strong></p><ul><li>G. W. Bromiley, “Trinity,” in Walter A. Elwell, ed., <strong><em>Evangelical Dictionary of Theology</em></strong><em> </em>(Grand Rapids: Baker, 1984), 1112.</li><li>Alister E. McGrath, <strong><em>Historical Theology: An Introduction to the History of Christian Thought</em></strong><em> </em>(Malden: Blackwell, 1998), 61.</li><li>Roger E. Olson, <strong><em>The Story of Christian Theology: Twenty Centuries of Tradition &amp; Reform</em></strong><em> </em>(Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1999), 195–196.</li></ul>]]>
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        <title>A closer look at Matthew 28:19….</title>
        <link>https://christiandiscourse.net/index.php?p=/discussion/1014/a-closer-look-at-matthew-28-19</link>
        <pubDate>Sat, 27 Nov 2021 00:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
        <category>Biblical Studies</category>
        <dc:creator>Brother Rando</dc:creator>
        <guid isPermaLink="false">1014@/index.php?p=/discussions</guid>
        <description><![CDATA[<p><a href="https://www.brorando.com/post/a-closer-look-at-matthew-28-19" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">A closer look at Matthew 28:19….</a></p><div>
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<p>The scripture at Matthew 28:19 today doesn’t read as it did in the first century. <strong>Matthew who was born of the Levi tribe, first wrote his book in his native tongue</strong>, (<strong>Hebrew</strong>).  So let’s visit the Actual Scripture.  “Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations <strong>in MY Name</strong>,” (<a href="http://www.jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/matthew-proof.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew 28:19</a>)  <strong><em>Note: </em></strong><em>Scripture is under scrutiny and research for possible correction due to new findings from sources familiar with the deception.</em></p><p>The trinity doctrine never acknowledges Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, <strong>those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. </strong>This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study-bible/books/2-john/1/#v63001007" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">2 John 7</a>) The foreign doctrine removes Jesus Christ by omission and teaches a different Jesus as it promotes a false baptism by replacing Christ with its own doctrine.</p><p>Notice this admission. <strong>The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263: </strong>“<em>The baptismal formula was changed </em><strong><em>from the name of Jesus Christ</em></strong> to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit <em>by the Catholic Church in the second century.</em>”</p><p><strong>Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: </strong></p><ul><li>He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of <strong>Matthew 28:19</strong>. “<em>The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, </em><strong><em>the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome</em></strong><em>.</em>” — Joseph Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83.</li></ul><p>That's right, an admission that the baptism text came from the Pagan City of Rome. None of the Apostles baptized anyone in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit in the first century. NONE!</p><p>Scripture also says that by the authority of Jesus, people would be told to turn to God and change the way they think and act so that their sins will be forgiven. This would be told to people from all nations, beginning in the city of Jerusalem. ‘<strong>…and on the basis of his Name,</strong> repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem.’ (<a href="https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/luke/24/#v42024046-v42024047" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc">Luke 24:46-47</a>)</p><p><a href="https://www.brorando.com/post/a-closer-look-at-matthew-28-19" rel="nofollow noreferrer ugc"><strong>Get more details.</strong></a></p>]]>
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