Genesis and the Big Bang?
Was the Big Bang the voice of God in creation? Does science contradict scripture or help us understand it? Did six literal days stretch into 16 billion years with the expansion of the universe? etc. ect.
Comments
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I don't think the two are related. However, yes, I do believe God created the universe with age.
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Thanks for the reply. I'm still YEC but try to accommodate science into this model. I was considering how time changes throughout space. Toying with the idea that God created the universe in 6 literal days. But its expansion is dragging those original days into billions of years. And the age will continue to increase as the universe continues to expand.
In essence, from God's point of view it was 6 literal days. But from our point in time, because of the distance traveled, it is now some 16 billion years. And eventually that number will double as the universe continues to expand.
What Peter describes as the end of the world makes me think of a second big bang. When the elements melt with a fervent heat in a great noise.
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I also don't think the "Big Bang" as a theory and the voice of God are unrelated. I am YEC and just don't have a problem with apparent "age." There are a variety of explanations, but a literal reading of creation dispenses with a lot of trouble making sense of it all.
I think one reasonably good explanation is that God created Adam as a mature being. That means that the scientist observing today would say he appeared to be X years old--based on how things normally age in known history. God created the world as a mature world, functioning ecosystem and all. The scientist today would say it appeared to be X years old based on how things normally age in known history.
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The problem of distant star light convinced me of OEC about a decade ago. The starlight we see today comes from stars and galaxies up to 13 billion light years away. Under present conditions and physical laws it would take that starlight up to 13 billion years to reach us.
So for YEC to be true, God would have had to modify the speed of light massively over time (which can't be the case since the well known law E=mc² would have caused a massive decline in energy as well).
Or he is projecting "star" light to us with the appearance of an age of up to 13 billion years. In that case, these stars would not exist in reality (except a just few stars that are closer than 6,000 light years), which contradicts the Genesis account that clearly states that God created the stars also, and not only the star light.
Or he is miraculously bringing the star light close to us. That would have to be an ongoing phenomenon, which no-one has managed to observe so far. Therefore, I also reject that theory.
Here's a somewhat lengthy video that examines every detail of the age of the universe from both YEC and OEC perspective. Maybe something to watch during a lonely weekend...
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@GaoLu said:
I think one reasonably good explanation is that God created Adam as a mature being. That means that the scientist observing today would say he appeared to be X years old--based on how things normally age in known history. God created the world as a mature world, functioning ecosystem and all. The scientist today would say it appeared to be X years old based on how things normally age in known history.You make good sense in your reasoning.
@Jan said:
The problem of distant star light convinced me of OEC about a decade ago. The starlight we see today comes from stars and galaxies up to 13 billion light years away. Under present conditions and physical laws it would take that starlight up to 13 billion years to reach us.So for YEC to be true, God would have had to modify the speed of light massively over time (which can't be the case since the well known law E=mc² would have caused a massive decline in energy as well).
Or he is projecting "star" light to us with the appearance of an age of up to 13 billion years. In that case, these stars would not exist in reality (except a just few stars that are closer than 6,000 light years), which contradicts the Genesis account that clearly states that God created the stars also, and not only the star light.
Or he is miraculously bringing the star light close to us. That would have to be an ongoing phenomenon, which no-one has managed to observe so far. Therefore, I also reject that theory.
Here's a somewhat lengthy video that examines every detail of the age of the universe from both YEC and OEC perspective. Maybe something to watch during a lonely weekend...
Can do some things behind our ability to figure it out? Who was here first, who has all knowledge, all power, who made whom? Man, "Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands" [Hebrews 2:7].
-- "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.
-- YEC or OEC it's the work of God, human comprehension or not.
--Knowledge of a YEC or OEC, is this a requirement for salvation? No.If God were to give us certitude, what would we do about:
-- Hebrews 1:2, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."
-- Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.Am I being too literal with these last two verses? If you think so, I am certain of two things:
1. Hebrews tells us of the God that is and the God that speaks.
2. The God who created the world ex nihilo ("out of nothing").Let's take what we have a wait his return. We can ask God all the questions we want. Peace/Joy!
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@Jan said:
The problem of distant star light convinced me of OEC about a decade ago. The starlight we see today comes from stars and galaxies up to 13 billion light years away. Under present conditions and physical laws it would take that starlight up to 13 billion years to reach us.So for YEC to be true, God would have had to modify the speed of light massively over time (which can't be the case since the well known law E=mc² would have caused a massive decline in energy as well).
Or he is projecting "star" light to us with the appearance of an age of up to 13 billion years. In that case, these stars would not exist in reality (except a just few stars that are closer than 6,000 light years), which contradicts the Genesis account that clearly states that God created the stars also, and not only the star light.
Or he is miraculously bringing the star light close to us. That would have to be an ongoing phenomenon, which no-one has managed to observe so far. Therefore, I also reject that theory.
Jan, I commend the way you permit scientific fact to contribute to - actually, expand - your understanding of God's creative genius. Well done.
My principal objection to a young earth in the face of what is overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary is that I find nothing in Scripture to suggest God is constitutionally able, let alone willing, to create a world that in reality is more than two million times younger than by all human observations it appears to be. God gives us amazing abilities to test, observe, and analyze, then puts us in a universe whose appearance deceives every one of those abilities? I don't believe God is capable of such falsehoods.
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@Bill_Coley said:
My principal objection to a young earth in the face of what is overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary is that I find nothing in Scripture to suggest God is constitutionally able, let alone willing, to create a world that in reality is more than two million times younger than by all human observations it appears to be. God gives us amazing abilities to test, observe, and analyze, then puts us in a universe whose appearance deceives every one of those abilities? I don't believe God is capable of such falsehoods.Well spoken. And indeed, YEC teaching sadly can cause people to leave their faith. Or rather the teaching that YEC is a requirement for Christian orthodoxy is the issue.
Young people are taught in church that believing in a young earth is inseparable from being a Christian. Then they go to college, examine all the evidence, shipwreck their faith, and become Chist's enemies. There are numerous Youtubers with that kind of story, who now actively and aggressively promote atheism.
St. Augustine wrote that God has given us two books, the Holy Scripture, and the book of creation. Both reveal God. I personally believe both are inerrant. (Interpretation of either of them is not inerrant.) That means, every interpretation of one of the books may not contradict the respective other book.
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Thanks for the replies. I found this
by Dr. Schroeder. It is less than 10 minutes long. He explains how time stretches with the expansion of the universe. So that six literal days are now 16 billion years. -
I think the Big Bang explains much of the thread that runs through the bible. IF you acknowledge God's infinite intelligence and design running through it. Just as Einstein and Schopenhauer said something like "our every thought and act stems from the cause preceding it going back to creation", scripture asserts and the Westminster Confession acknowledged around 400 years ago.
Plus Peter describes a second Big Bang that will usher in the New Heavens and earth.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” (2 Peter 3:10)
“Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:12–13)
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@Bill_Coley said:
@Jan said:
The problem of distant star light convinced me of OEC about a decade ago. The starlight we see today comes from stars and galaxies up to 13 billion light years away. Under present conditions and physical laws it would take that starlight up to 13 billion years to reach us.So for YEC to be true, God would have had to modify the speed of light massively over time (which can't be the case since the well known law E=mc² would have caused a massive decline in energy as well).
Or he is projecting "star" light to us with the appearance of an age of up to 13 billion years. In that case, these stars would not exist in reality (except a just few stars that are closer than 6,000 light years), which contradicts the Genesis account that clearly states that God created the stars also, and not only the star light.
Or he is miraculously bringing the star light close to us. That would have to be an ongoing phenomenon, which no-one has managed to observe so far. Therefore, I also reject that theory.
Jan, I commend the way you permit scientific fact to contribute to - actually, expand - your understanding of God's creative genius. Well done.
My principal objection to a young earth in the face of what is overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary is that I find nothing in Scripture to suggest God is constitutionally able, let alone willing, to create a world that in reality is more than two million times younger than by all human observations it appears to be. God gives us amazing abilities to test, observe, and analyze, then puts us in a universe whose appearance deceives every one of those abilities? I don't believe God is capable of such falsehoods.
Did God create Adam as a baby?
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@Dave_L said:
Was the Big Bang the voice of God in creation? Does science contradict scripture or help us understand it? Did six literal days stretch into 16 billion years with the expansion of the universe? etc. ect.Big bang is not a proven theory.
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I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
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It will all end with a Big Bang, for sure. That is still future and literal--not a figure of speech. Don't you think?
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@GaoLu said:
It will all end with a Big Bang, for sure. That is still future and literal--not a figure of speech. Don't you think?I agree......... I think it could happen any day (Amillennial position).
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@Dave_L said:
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
Where do you get that this corresponds to the original creation?
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
Where do you get that this corresponds to the original creation?
I don't, but it has interesting parallels to what science predicts is looming in the universes future. If so it might help explain the original creation from a scientific point of view.
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This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
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@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
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@Dave_L said:
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.why should I base my understanding on an unproven idea which science might be looking for instead of basing it on the already existing text and overall scope of Scripture?
Do you realize that I am here applying the same principle for understanding in regards to the timing and nature of what is mentioned about events at the end of the age as you did earlier with your points regarding the nature of the coming kingdom (spiritual vs physical) ...
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
This passage employs the same figure of speech and apocalyptic language as other passages concerning the identical events which happened at the end of the then aeon (age). Vers 8 mentions the "spirit of his mouth" by which the wicked shall be consumed (as in "burned by fire") ... I would say it is clear as day that this is not meant literally, or do you think that Jesus would consume the wicked by bad fiery breath ? As you hopefully can see, the textual details point to the uses of figures of speech in this passage as well.
By the way, if "flaming fire" were meant literally, it could be a prophetic reference to the literal fire by which Jerusalem was ransacked and the temple destroyed
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@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Unless of course, this has not happened yet.
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Even with a literal view, as I take on that passage, I don't see anywhere in the passage that would indicate a big bang.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.why should I base my understanding on an unproven idea which science might be looking for instead of basing it on the already existing text and overall scope of Scripture?
Do you realize that I am here applying the same principle for understanding in regards to the timing and nature of what is mentioned about events at the end of the age as you did earlier with your points regarding the nature of the coming kingdom (spiritual vs physical) ...
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
This passage employs the same figure of speech and apocalyptic language as other passages concerning the identical events which happened at the end of the then aeon (age). Vers 8 mentions the "spirit of his mouth" by which the wicked shall be consumed (as in "burned by fire") ... I would say it is clear as day that this is not meant literally, or do you think that Jesus would consume the wicked by bad fiery breath ? As you hopefully can see, the textual details point to the uses of figures of speech in this passage as well.
By the way, if "flaming fire" were meant literally, it could be a prophetic reference to the literal fire by which Jerusalem was ransacked and the temple destroyed
Even if science doesn't fit in. scripture tilts the end of the world scenario towards the literal. Both occurrences so far are among obviously literal contexts.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Unless of course, this has not happened yet.
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Even with a literal view, as I take on that passage, I don't see anywhere in the passage that would indicate a big bang.
"Great noise" = "Big Bang"?
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Unless of course, this has not happened yet.
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Even with a literal view, as I take on that passage, I don't see anywhere in the passage that would indicate a big bang.
"Great noise" = "Big Bang"?
Ok, so a loud noise you are equating with the big bang theory?
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Unless of course, this has not happened yet.
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Even with a literal view, as I take on that passage, I don't see anywhere in the passage that would indicate a big bang.
"Great noise" = "Big Bang"?
Ok, so a loud noise you are equating with the big bang theory?
Loud noise/big bang. As I said it seems interesting that science predicts the same situation Peter said would happen over 2000 years ago.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Unless of course, this has not happened yet.
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Even with a literal view, as I take on that passage, I don't see anywhere in the passage that would indicate a big bang.
"Great noise" = "Big Bang"?
Ok, so a loud noise you are equating with the big bang theory?
Loud noise/big bang. As I said it seems interesting that science predicts the same situation Peter said would happen over 2000 years ago.
Wait, science predicts? What are you talking about? Are you talking about the big bang theory or something else???
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wow ... from reading the more recent posts in this thread, I can see rather nicely what happens when the text itself is no longer the basis for gaining a correct understanding of the Scriptures ...
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@Wolfgang said:
wow ... from reading the more recent posts in this thread, I can see rather nicely what happens when the text itself is no longer the basis for gaining a correct understanding of the Scriptures ...Yeah this one is pretty out there.
-
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Unless of course, this has not happened yet.
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
This seems to me to be a correct observation
I'm curious because Peter describes a "big bang" at the end of the world that corresponds to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth.
Peter doesn't describe any "big bang" that would correspond to either the creation of the current "heaven and earth" (in the sense of space, planets, etc) or the creation of a new space, planet, etc ...
“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:10–13)
The passage refers to "the day of the Lord", that day of judgment which had been prophesied even from the days of Moses against apostate Israel and which was to happen at the end of the age (that then age, the age of the old covenant, etc) and which Jesus prophesied as being close and near and connected with the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Thus, the passage is about the time which was rather imminent at the time when these words in 2Pe were written.
Since the planet earth and the heavens / space did not dissolve, and since Jesus is no liar, it should be obvious that the expression "heavens and earth" are not meant in a literal sense as "planet earth" and "heavens/space with stars, planets, etc", but involve figures of speech depicting people etc. Actually, the type of figurative language is very much like that "apocalyptic language" which is utilized in large portions of the book of Revelation which deals with the same topic matter.
I can see you're view as a metaphor. But I think science looking for a "second big bang" could tilt it more towards literal. Also, Paul tilts it in favor of the literal.
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: ” (2 Thessalonians 1:7–8)
Even with a literal view, as I take on that passage, I don't see anywhere in the passage that would indicate a big bang.
"Great noise" = "Big Bang"?
Ok, so a loud noise you are equating with the big bang theory?
Loud noise/big bang. As I said it seems interesting that science predicts the same situation Peter said would happen over 2000 years ago.
Wait, science predicts? What are you talking about? Are you talking about the big bang theory or something else???
Just sayin' if they are right, Peter foretold it 2000 years ago.
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Dave's Theology is pretty interesting. Keep going, Dave.
You do have this in your favor
Note: This is proof because it has a link to the internet.
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