Is It Wrong To Scare People About Hell?

I shudder to think of what Hell is like, knowing that all of the suffering in the world came from God's hands for sin. I believe the fear of God will drive many to Christ when they learn it is ultimately God that Jesus saves us from.

Because he is infinitely righteous and must punish sin to remain righteous. So if we can open people's eyes to see God at work in the world of suffering around us, it can stand as a symbol of how horrible Hell might be, without the good things of earth to surround and temper it.

@Dave_L said:
I shudder to think of what Hell is like, knowing that all of the suffering in the world came from God's hands for sin. I believe the fear of God will drive many to Christ when they learn it is ultimately God that Jesus saves us from.

Because he is infinitely righteous and must punish sin to remain righteous. So if we can open people's eyes to see God at work in the world of suffering around us, it can stand as a symbol of how horrible Hell might be, without the good things of earth to surround and temper it.

Dave,
There seems to be a pattern of you conveying that God has a dark side and a band of demons working (suffering/mishaps) to bring people to Christ. I get the impression that you think God created Satan to refine humanity. Please clarify, in contrast to, what I feel you are conveying about God. CM

@davidtaylorjr said:

@C_M_ said:

@davidtaylorjr said:
Is there a difference between scaring people into Heaven and preaching the truth about Hell? How should we tell the truth about the punishment of sin? What is the best way of doing this?

Easy, simple.
1. Tell them or one about the love of God, Creation and the plan of salvation (Redemption).
2. Tell of God's goodness, mercy, and grace.
3. Tell of Christ's Sacrificial, Substitutionary, Atoning death.
4. Tell of His birth, life, trial, death, burial, resurrection and promised to return and claim his own (through translation/resurrection).
5. With this shared, one would under the necessity and the reason not only punish sin but to destroy it once and for all.

All this is best conveyed by the life we live, our relationship with God and how we treat others. Happy Living! CM

I understand and agree with all of that. But should we ever preach on Hell itself? Does that make sense?

Why Thank you, David,
There is common ground in these forums for us. We are still talking about death, just not by guns. Praise God!

Before I attempt to answer your question, let me say the following:
1. When you preach the love of God, to some degree, you are preaching about "hell", as mentioned above. When one understands the "is", then he's able to comprehend "what is not."
2. When one can discern the what is wheat, he knows what is chaff and it has to go.

• What do you mean by "Hell"?
• Where is Hell?
• When is "Hell?"
• How long is "Hell?"
• Who's in charge of Hell"?
• In what context are you preaching about "Hell?"

3. Knowing your answers to these questions will help me to answer you most probably.
4. Seek out: I shared some in these forums on hell. They were prep thoughts to understanding. It would be most helpful if you could find it. If you find it tell me. It's here somewhere. Keep studying. CM

@davidtaylorjr said:

@C_M_ said:

@davidtaylorjr said:

@C_M_ said:

@davidtaylorjr said:
Is there a difference between scaring people into Heaven and preaching the truth about Hell? How should we tell the truth about the punishment of sin? What is the best way of doing this?

Easy, simple.
1. Tell them or one about the love of God, Creation and the plan of salvation (Redemption).
2. Tell of God's goodness, mercy, and grace.
3. Tell of Christ's Sacrificial, Substitutionary, Atoning death.
4. Tell of His birth, life, trial, death, burial, resurrection and promised to return and claim his own (through translation/resurrection).
5. With this shared, one would under the necessity and the reason not only punish sin but to destroy it once and for all.

All this is best conveyed by the life we live, our relationship with God and how we treat others. Happy Living! CM

I understand and agree with all of that. But should we ever preach on Hell itself? Does that make sense?

Why Thank you, David,
There is common ground in these forums for us. We are still talking about death, just not by guns. Praise God!

Yes, and I hope you had a chance to read my thread at http://christiandiscourse.net/discussion/186/revelation-2-an-apology-and-new-practices#latest

No, I haven't read it. Maybe later. The other points, I would address later. CM

@C_M_ said:

@Dave_L said:
I shudder to think of what Hell is like, knowing that all of the suffering in the world came from God's hands for sin. I believe the fear of God will drive many to Christ when they learn it is ultimately God that Jesus saves us from.

Because he is infinitely righteous and must punish sin to remain righteous. So if we can open people's eyes to see God at work in the world of suffering around us, it can stand as a symbol of how horrible Hell might be, without the good things of earth to surround and temper it.

Dave,
There seems to be a pattern of you conveying that God has a dark side and a band of demons working (suffering/mishaps) to bring people to Christ. I get the impression that you think God created Satan to refine humanity. Please clarify, in contrast to, what I feel you are conveying about God. CM

God is perfectly righteous. And to remain righteous, he must punish sin. And so he does this using Satan, demons, sickness, war, accidents, mayhem and whatever. He owes death and hell to every person born of Adam.

So that's the starting point. But at the same time, God is perfect infinite love. So he became Christ and took his own wrath on the cross in behalf of all who trust in Christ as their only means of acceptance with God.

But, even better, just as God considered us all guilty in Adam's sin, he considers all believers righteous in Christ, our representative. But here's the real treat, we have the righteousness of God himself imputed to us and therefore enjoy the same eternal life that only God has.

@davidtaylorjr said:

@Dave_L said:

@C_M_ said:

@Dave_L said:
I shudder to think of what Hell is like, knowing that all of the suffering in the world came from God's hands for sin. I believe the fear of God will drive many to Christ when they learn it is ultimately God that Jesus saves us from.

Because he is infinitely righteous and must punish sin to remain righteous. So if we can open people's eyes to see God at work in the world of suffering around us, it can stand as a symbol of how horrible Hell might be, without the good things of earth to surround and temper it.

Dave,
There seems to be a pattern of you conveying that God has a dark side and a band of demons working (suffering/mishaps) to bring people to Christ. I get the impression that you think God created Satan to refine humanity. Please clarify, in contrast to, what I feel you are conveying about God. CM

God is perfectly righteous. And to remain righteous, he must punish sin. And so he does this using Satan, demons, sickness, war, accidents, mayhem and whatever. He owes death and hell to every person born of Adam.

I disagree that he uses Satan and Demons to punish sin. They are being punished themselves. How exactly are they used to punish sin? Please explain.

So that's the starting point. But at the same time, God is perfect infinite love. So he became Christ and took his own wrath on the cross in behalf of all who trust in Christ as their only means of acceptance with God.

God did not become Christ. Christ already existed.

All that being said, what does this have to do with the thread topic?

The wages of sin is death and sickness in all its forms.

“How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.” (Acts 10:38)
“turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 5:5)

Christ = Messiah. The eternal Son became flesh and dwelt among us as the Messiah.

@GaoLu said:
Dave's One-Man Theology 101:

1. God cannot do evil so he creates Satan who does evil.
2. God does not punish evil. Evil must be punished. God creates the devil who does evil to punish evil so God isn't responsible, or is or is a secondary cause or something. Unclear.

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” (Isaiah 45:7)

“If an alarm sounds in a city, do people not fear? If disaster overtakes a city, is the LORD not responsible?” (Amos 3:6)

“Yet he too is wise and he will bring disaster; he does not retract his decree. He will attack the wicked nation, and the nation that helps those who commit sin.” (Isaiah 31:2)

@GaoLu said:
Nice verses. I like those.

How do you view Satan in relation to God?

Here is the WCF on angels and their sins. Satan being an angel. What do you think?

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;109 and that not by a bare permission,110 but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,111 and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;112 yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.113

Westminster Assembly. (n.d.). Westminster Confession.

@Dave_L said:

@GaoLu said:
Nice verses. I like those.

How do you view Satan in relation to God?

Here is the WCF on angels and their sins. Satan being an angel. What do you think?

IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;109 and that not by a bare permission,110 but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,111 and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;112 yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.113

Westminster Assembly. (n.d.). Westminster Confession.

I see free will there. God created magnificent creatures who apparently had a substantial measure of free will and some chose to rebel against God. The adversary, satan, whether one or many in the case of the descriptive term, is an adversary because of free will. Take away free will and then the accusation is that God Himself is evil which is blasphemy.

GaoLu, here's a partial response to your comments. CM

Hell in the OT:

The Hebrew Old Testament often uses the word she'ol for the place where the deceased go.

Four definitions are given for Sheol: "The underworld; the abode of the dead; hell, Hades."

While the Hebrew Old Testament uses

• She'ol-- 65 times,
  The King James Version has translated it:

• Three times "pit" and

• Thirty-one times each "grave" and "hell."

Interestingly enough, in 43 of these 65 occurrences the King James Version has in its margin she'ol, however, without any word of explanation. Translation of word in the text is not always accurate or consistent. It seems to be left to the reader to decide for himself which word he wishes to use in each individual case? For a correct definition, he is likely to consult a good standard dictionary. However, it is an open question how much help he will actually get from that, inasmuch as four definitions are given for Sheol:
1. "The Underworld"
2. "The abode of the dead"
3. "Hell"
4. "Hades"

To the Jews who translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek, resulting in the LXX, the Greek Hades was the same as she'ol. Here it's defined as "the vault of the dead underground." " In most cases she'ol is translated hades in the LXX. There are just four exceptions:
1. Thanatos-- twice"
2. Bothros -- once"
3. Once it is not translated at all."

In olden times Hades was the god of the underworld.
Later the name took on the meaning "underworld, grave, death."

The Vulgate says:
*mors once

• "inferus 17 times, and
• infernos 47 times. Both words mean "that which is below."

The Revised Standard Version has been fairly consistent by using
• she'ol sixty-three times
• the translation "grave" twice."

Later on the deep drill down on the word Hell (sheol/grave/underworld). I hope this beginning to make sense? CM

@C_M_ said:
GaoLu, here's a partial response to your comments. CM

Hell in the OT:

The Hebrew Old Testament often uses the word she'ol for the place where the deceased go.

Four definitions are given for Sheol: "The underworld; the abode of the dead; hell, Hades."

While the Hebrew Old Testament uses

• She'ol-- 65 times,
  The King James Version has translated it:

• Three times "pit" and

• Thirty-one times each "grave" and "hell."

Right. I am talking about those times it means the place of punishment. The hell we have been discussing. Not the others.

Interestingly enough, in 43 of these 65 occurrences the King James Version has in its margin she'ol, however, without any word of explanation. Translation of word in the text is not always accurate or consistent. It seems to be left to the reader to decide for himself which word he wishes to use in each individual case?

I don't find it difficult to discern. I wonder who does? Probably someone. Context tells us. Words like "run" are the same (baseball, paint, sprint, etc.) You know when you read what "run" the writer means. Same with hell. No biggy.

I hope this beginning to make sense? CM

It does. I think that I understood that from about age 15. Maybe my parents explained it? Maybe I just sort of knew from reading it.

You have done a good job of presenting your theology for which I thank you. I think you have some good points and some good illustrations. I think there are some fundamental errors in premises which lead to wrong conclusions. We may just have to disagree there.

Gentlemen,

Let me see if I can summarize and move the conversation forward of the meaning of Hell in the OT:

Some Bible translators have used various words with “hell” which have other meanings. Four words **have been translated **with the term “hell”: (1) sheol, (2) hades, (3) tartaros, and (4) gehenna.

We have looked at only one (1) sheol in the OT. With fresh eyes we see- The word "Sheol" is used 66 times in the Old Testament.

It is the realm of the dead who are in the grave. Normally the Greek translation of the term is hades.

• Gen 37:35 -- Jacob expects to go down to sheol/the grave, to his son Joseph.
• 1 Sam 2:6 -- God brings down to sheol/the grave and raises up.
• Eccl 9:10 -- In sheol/the grave there is no activity, no planning, and no knowledge. Sheol is the place of the dead. There is no fire, neither is there torment. The righteous and the unrighteous are found there.

As for GaoLu's interest:

I am talking about those times it means the place of punishment...

Your concerns take the conversation to the NT. This is deep, but not insurmountable. "The place of punishment" is where a lot of fear and stories emanates (possible future post) when it comes to the biblical study of Hell. One such for example:

In 1823, Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to John Adams, expressing his unbelief:

• “I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his five points is not the god you and I acknowledge and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a daemon or malignant spirit. It would be more pardonable to believe in no god at all than to blaspheme him by the atrocious attributes of Calvin. ‘The value of deism, in its last and American ambit, was that it prevented confessional religion from driving human beings into atheism as its only alternative.’” (Michael Buckley, At the Origins of Modern Atheism, quoting a letter in 1823 by Thomas Jefferson to John Adams).

Jefferson saw the god of Calvinism as demonic, but at the same time, he believed the true God must be better than that.

What if we proclaimed to the world a picture of God that looks like this:

• “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

This Calvinistic picture of Christ describes a vindictive vengeful God. I don’t know about you but, this description seems inconsistent with Jesus Christ the saviour. The one who was willing to be sacrificed just to give us the opportunity to accept his saving grace!

Before addressing your specific concerns, GaoLu, let me be sure we have a mutual understanding of "hell" in the NT:

There Is a Hell

• (1) Jesus knows about hell - Matt 18:9; 23:33; Luke 12:5.

• (2) There are only two options:
  -- * Life Eternal or
  -- * Being lost/destruction/eternal fire - John 3:16; Matt 7:13-14; Matt 25:31, 32, 41.

However, destruction/eternal fire is a future event connected to Christ’s second coming. Therefore, “hell” still lies in the future.

If there is mutuality here, we can address the judgment punishment and reconcile the "forever burning." We must correct hell's fear, misunderstanding, and the Calvinistic picture of Christ describes as a vindictive vengeful God. He is not a "Divine Sadistic Being", some people make Him out to be.

I hope this is helpful and I am not boring you? Keep studying. Blessings. CM