Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
Comments
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You said:
"John the Revelator identifies the one who was, is, and is to come in Revelation 1.4, which in part reads:
"Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come; from the sevenfold Spirit before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ."
The language of this verse makes clear that for John, the one who is, was, and is to come is someone other than Jesus Christ. In Revelation 4.8 John tells us that that one is God.
A bit of simple logic and word substitution produces this result: For John the Revelator, God is someone other than Jesus Christ (and of course, Jesus Christ is someone other than God)."
The Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, are all the same meaning and same person, Jesus Christ, and the scriptures say he is the Lord God Almighty.
Jesus is the one who was and is and is going to come with his reward, coming with the clouds with and every eye shall see him who was pierced: and, that person is the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE LORD, THE ALMIGHTY.
Revelation 4:8 And each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around and within. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!"
Revelation 7:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 7:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
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You said:
"Assertion has puzzling wording so please clarify. If "Jesus is God the Father" then who is Abba for prayers by Jesus ?"
God the Father is an Invisible Spirit and lives in unapproachable light.
God the Father while living in unapproachable light, also made Himself a physical flesh body.
The three are one, and 'one' even means 'the same'.
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Sorry to be delayed in responding to your post. Thanks for offering it.
@YourTruthGod posted:
The Beginning and the End, the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, are all the same meaning and same person, Jesus Christ, and the scriptures say he is the Lord God Almighty.
The specific phrase at issue in our exchange is the phrase "the one who is, and was, and is to come." As to THAT phrase, the biblical text is unambiguously clear: That one is NOT Jesus.
Revelation 1.4b-5: This letter is from John to the seven churches in the province of Asia. Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come; from the sevenfold Spirit before his throne; and from Jesus Christ. He is the faithful witness to these things, the first to rise from the dead, and the ruler of all the kings of the world. All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.
- John offers grace and peace to the seven churches from three sources: 1) the one who is, was, and is to come; 2) the sevenfold Spirit before that one's throne; and 3) from Jesus Christ. The NLT places semi-colons between each of those sources to distinguish between them. The ESV, NIV, NRSV, and KJV, among many others, all use commas followed by the phrase "and from" to introduce the Spirit and Jesus. In my view, the meaning of the verse is clear: The one who is, was, and is to come is different from either the sevenfold Spirit or Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1.8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.”
- John identifies the one who was, is, and is to come as "the Lord God" (as well as the Alpha/Omega, aka, the beginning/end).
Revelation 4.8: Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty— the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come.
- For the second time, John explicitly identifies the one who is, was, and is to come as "the Lord God."
Revelation 21.5-7: 5 And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” 6 And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. 7 All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.
- One sitting on the throne announces the arrival of a holy city from heaven. The announcer self-identifies as 1) "the Alpha and Omega," and 2) the God of "all who are victorious." In Revelation 21.22-23 and elsewhere in the chapter, John distinguishes between "the Lord God Almighty" and "the Lamb" (who, of course, is Jesus).
Revelation 22.12-13: 12 “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
- Jesus calls himself "the Alpha and the Omega," understandably prompting linkages to - and hence, identifications from - the previous references. But in my view, we must understand these verses in the larger setting of the chapter/book in which they appear.
- The only two other references to the Alpha/Omega in Revelation clearly specify God, not Jesus.
- Revelation 22 in two locations distinguishes between God and "the Lamb." (Rev 22.1, 3)
- Neither before, in, or after vv.12-13 does John link Jesus as the "Alpha/Omega" to God as the "Alpha/Omega."
- In Revelation 22.20, John calls Jesus "the faithful witness to all these things," presumably the prophetic visions John has supplied in his narrative... and most proximate to that designation, John's proclamation of what God will do to those who add or remove anything written in his book.
For these reasons, I disagree with your interpretation of the was/is/is-to-come and alpha/omega passages. For a host of reasons far longer and more biblically diverse, I disagree strongly with your conclusion that "the scriptures say he is the Lord God Almighty."
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Jesus is the one who is to come.
Jesus is God the Father.
The seven spirits are the angels over the churches in the New Testament.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Jesus is the one who is to come.
Jesus is God the Father.
The seven spirits are the angels over the churches in the New Testament.
I respect that you believe those claims to be true, but I contend there is no biblical warrant for the first two, surely, or for the third one, at least on first review. (Revelation 1.20 says the angels over the churches are the seven stars in the right hand of one "like the Son of Man" - Revelation 1.16. The sevenfold Spirit of Revelation 1.4 is nowhere in Revelation identified as those seven stars, as far as I can tell.)
It would help me were you to engage the specific texts I cited in my previous post and the analysis of them I included. Where in the text of those or other verses/passages do you find cause to claim my observations and conclusions about them are mistaken?
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@YourTruthGod Jesus is God the Father.
hmn .... hmn .... hmn .... this blind guy here just can't see what you claim there. I must be totally in the dark.
Any enlightenment possible to see how someone is his own father? or how he is his own son?
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Do you admit that the First and the Last, the Beginning and End, and the Alpha and the Omega mean the same thing?
Do you admit it is God who is, and was, and is to come?
Do you admit that the Bible says THAT JESUS IS TO COME AGAIN?
Read these two scriptures:
Revelation 7:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 7:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Did you read it?
HE COMES with the clouds, AND EVERYONE WILL SEE HIM, the PIERCED ONE, who is Jesus, the ALPHA and the OMEGA, the BEGINNING and the ENDING.
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God the Father is a Spirit, invisible, and He made Himself visible to us by making Himself a body.
There are three, and the three are one; 'one' even means 'the same'.
God the Father an invisible Spirit who lives in unapproachable light, God the Father with a body and known to us as Jesus Christ, God the Father whose Spirit goes forth from Him and called 'the Holy Spirit'.
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Okay so, according to you, the seven churches are as stated in Revelation 1:4, but the seven spirits are now different spirits, when seven spirits in the other scripture are the angels of the seven churches in the other scripture?
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Do you admit that the First and the Last, the Beginning and End, and the Alpha and the Omega mean the same thing?
Those three phrases certainly have the same connotation. But having the same connotation does NOT necessarily mean they make the same identification. In these cases, according to the text, in one instance "the Alpha and Omega" is a phrase Jesus uses to describe himself, and in two other instances, it is a phrase God uses to self-describe. In NO text does either John the revelator, Jesus, or God link those two identifications.
Do you admit it is God who is, and was, and is to come?
Yes. In the two relevant Revelation texts, God is the one who is, was, and is to come. Neither of those texts, however, indicates that Jesus is the one who is, was, and is to come.
Do you admit that the Bible says THAT JESUS IS TO COME AGAIN?
Yes. Jesus declared his return as the Son of Man, not as God (Matthew 24.37ff; Mark 8.38 - in the Marcan text, Jesus says the Son of Man will return "in the glory of his Father," making another clear distinction between himself and and God, the one he called his "Father").
[NOTE: FWIW, I don't see the value of asking me whether I "admit" things. People admit to crimes and other violations, not biblical content. How about asking whether I "acknowledge" the truth of your claims?]
@YourTruthGod posted:
Did you read it?
HE COMES with the clouds, AND EVERYONE WILL SEE HIM, the PIERCED ONE, who is Jesus, the ALPHA and the OMEGA, the BEGINNING and the ENDING.
Yes, I did read it - though the two verses you cited are found in Revelation 1, not Revelation 7.
Again I assert the value of looking at Bible verses in context, in this case, the opening verses of the chapter, which assist proper identification of characters.
- Revelation 1.1 - John the Revelator introduces his work as "a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants the events that must soon take place." In other words, John says God gave Jesus the revelation John will report in his work. If God gave something to Jesus, then God and Jesus are not the same. In fact, there is no indication in Revelation that God and Jesus are the same.
- Revelation 1.2 - John distinguishes between "the word of God" and "the testimony of Jesus Christ," in so doing, making another clear distinction between God and Jesus.
- Revelation 1.4-5 - As previously noted, all translations report John's distinction between the one who is, was, and is to come, the sevenfold Spirit, and Jesus Christ - whether by semi-colon or by commas followed by the words "and from." Note that in the information John adds in v.5 to define Jesus, he makes no mention of Jesus' being God.
- Revelation 1.6 - John says Jesus has "made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father," and in so doing, simultaneously identifies God as Jesus' Father and makes a clear distinction between Jesus and the God for whom he has made us a "Kingdom of priests."
- Revelation 1.7 - The one who comes with the clouds is Jesus. This identification is consistent the Jesus' promise found in Revelation 21.7.
- Revelation 1.8 - Who is the "Alpha and Omega" here? A visual clue comes from red letter editions of the Bible in which this verse is NOT printed in red, indicating translators' conclusions that the words do not come from Jesus. A textual clue comes from the previously cited Revelation 21.5-7 in which God, sitting on the throne (another hint; see Revelation 1.4; 4.9-11), self-describes as the alpha and omega. Note also that in red letter editions, the verses are not printed in red. At no time does John link God as alpha and omega to Jesus as alpha and omega. In my view, that must mean for John the title has different meanings when applied to God and Jesus respectively.
Arising in THAT context, I contend, the verses you cite do not mean Jesus is God.
@YourTruthGod posted:
Okay so, according to you, the seven churches are as stated in Revelation 1:4, but the seven spirits are now different spirits, when seven spirits in the other scripture are the angels of the seven churches in the other scripture?
The point of my previous post was that I am not aware of other texts that identify the seven spirits as "the angels of the seven churches." Please cite them.
Seven spirits are variously identified in Revelation, I'm assuming each time in reference to a different reality:
- Revelation 1.4 - As the spirits in front of the throne of the one who is, was, and is to come.
- Revelation 3.1 - As the spirits of God possessed by Jesus, who instructs John to write a letter to the church in Sardis.
- Revelation 4.5 - As the seven spirits of God reflected in seven torches in front of God's throne.
- Revelation 5.6 - As the spirits of God represented by the seven horns and seven eyes of the lamb who stands near the throne.
I find no text that identifies the seven spirits as the angels of the seven churches, so I again ask you to cite such verses.
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Those three phrases certainly have the same connotation. But having the same connotation does NOT necessarily mean they make the same identification. In these cases, according to the text, in one instance "the Alpha and Omega" is a phrase Jesus uses to describe himself, and in two other instances, it is a phrase God uses to self-describe. In NO text does either John the revelator, Jesus, or God link those two identifications.
They mean the same thing, and are even in the same sentences.
God the Father in the Old Testament calls Himself those things, and Jesus calls himself those things.
Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
Yes. In the two relevant Revelation texts, God is the one who is, was, and is to come. Neither of those texts, however, indicates that Jesus is the one who is, was, and is to come.
Jesus says plainly he is the one who was and is to come.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus is the one that was pierced and coming with the clouds.
Yes. Jesus declared his return as the Son of Man, not as God (Matthew 24.37ff; Mark 8.38 - in the Marcan text, Jesus says the Son of Man will return "in the glory of his Father," making another clear distinction between himself and and God, the one he called his "Father").
Jesus is God the Father come as a man and died for us.
[NOTE: FWIW, I don't see the value of asking me whether I "admit" things. People admit to crimes and other violations, not biblical content. How about asking whether I "acknowledge" the truth of your claims?]
I thought it might bother you, but that is just the best way to say it when you deny so much.
Again I assert the value of looking at Bible verses in context, in this case, the opening verses of the chapter, which assist proper identification of characters.
You assert wrongly because you are asserting that I read in a wrong way.
· Revelation 1.1 - John the Revelator introduces his work as "a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants the events that must soon take place." In other words, John says God gave Jesus the revelation John will report in his work. If God gave something to Jesus, then God and Jesus are not the same. In fact, there is no indication in Revelation that God and Jesus are the same.
· Not sure why you are using this scripture since it does not disprove anything.
Revelation 1.2 - John distinguishes between "the word of God" and "the testimony of Jesus Christ," in so doing, making another clear distinction between God and Jesus.
·The word was God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The word became flesh.
John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Jesus' name is The Word of God.
Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.
Revelation 1.4-5 - As previously noted, all translations report John's distinction between the one who is, was, and is to come, the sevenfold Spirit, and Jesus Christ - whether by semi-colon or by commas followed by the words "and from." Note that in the information John adds in v.5 to define Jesus, he makes no mention of Jesus' being God.
· I have already proven with scripture that Jesus is the one to come.
Jesus and the Father are one; 'one means 'the same'.
Jesus is shown as a slain lamb to show us what God did for us and how we must go through the slain lamb to get to the Father.
Revelation 1.6 - John says Jesus has "made us a Kingdom of priests for God his Father," and in so doing, simultaneously identifies God as Jesus' Father and makes a clear distinction between Jesus and the God for whom he has made us a "Kingdom of priests."
God had to be made like humans in every way.
Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
Revelation 1.7 - The one who comes with the clouds is Jesus. This identification is consistent the Jesus' promise found in Revelation 21.7.
Jesus is the one to come, which proves he and the Father are the same.
As for Revelation 21:7, that scripture proves Jesus is the Father, for that scripture says he will be our Father.
Revelation 1.8 - Who is the "Alpha and Omega" here? A visual clue comes from red letter editions of the Bible in which this verse is NOT printed in red, indicating translators' conclusions that the words do not come from Jesus. A textual clue comes from the previously cited Revelation 21.5-7 in which God, sitting on the throne (another hint; see Revelation 1.4; 4.9-11), self-describes as the alpha and omega. Note also that in red letter editions, the verses are not printed in red. At no time does John link God as alpha and omega to Jesus as alpha and omega. In my view, that must mean for John the title has different meanings when applied to God and Jesus respectively.
So you think John wrote the letters in red?
Arising in THAT context, I contend, the verses you cite do not mean Jesus is God.
The scriptures do show that Jesus is God.
As for the seven lamps being the eyes of Jesus is correct. I am glad that you brought that up, and I want to share more later a long and detailed study I have been doing about that.
Post edited by YourTruthGod on -
@Bill_Coley posted:
The specific phrase at issue in our exchange is the phrase "the one who is, and was, and is to come." As to THAT phrase, the biblical text is unambiguously clear: That one is NOT Jesus.
Remember the man Jesus praying to God the Father in John 17:5 (LEB) And now, Father, you glorify me ⌊at your side⌋ with the glory that I had ⌊at your side⌋ before the world existed. ... John 17:24 (LEB) “Father, those whom you have given to me—I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." so the man Jesus knew He existed at the side of God the Father before God created the world. Jesus was having the Glory of God and being loved when "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual Being was the only One alive.
Revelation 1.4b-5: This letter is from John to the seven churches in the province of Asia. Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come; from the sevenfold Spirit before his throne; and from Jesus Christ. He is the faithful witness to these things, the first to rise from the dead, and the ruler of all the kings of the world. All glory to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding his blood for us.
* John offers grace and peace to the seven churches from three sources: 1) the one who is, was, and is to come; 2) the sevenfold Spirit before that one's throne; and 3) from Jesus Christ. The NLT places semi-colons between each of those sources to distinguish between them. The ESV, NIV, NRSV, and KJV, among many others, all use commas followed by the phrase "and from" to introduce the Spirit and Jesus. In my view, the meaning of the verse is clear: The one who is, was, and is to come is different from either the sevenfold Spirit or Jesus Christ.
Looking at Greek Syntax Graphs (in Logos Bible Software) found agreement about one sentence in Revelation 1:4b-5a, which appears in the Lexham English Bible (LEB): "grace to you and peace from the one who is and the one who was and the one who is coming, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth." where phrase "from Jesus Christ" is followed by definite articles, adjectives, nouns, and a conjunction, which describe Jesus Christ (physically resurrected Holy human body has firstborn preemminence from the dead). Intriguing interpretive question is: three different sources (contrasting) OR three different descriptions of Jesus Christ (complementary) ? One of my preferred commentaries included question about phrase "the one who is, and was, and is to come" being all of God or just Jesus ? Greeting to the seven churches continues with focus on Jesus Christ:
Revelation 1:5b-6 (LEB) "To the one who loves us and released us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen."
The Word of God (John 1:1) portion of "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual Being left His throne in heaven to dwell in a Holy human body to become the unblemished substitutionary sin sacrifice so His blood can redeem any sinner who wants to believe & receive free gift of God's Grace. Ephesians 1:7 "we have redemption through his blood" is in the middle of one long Greek sentence that is numbered Ephesians 1:3-14
Revelation 1:7 (LEB) "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even every one who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. Yes, amen."
Revelation 1:7 continues greeting focus on Jesus Christ, as Jesus was the One pierced (nailed) to be hung on a cross (tree). Jesus coming with the clouds is consistent with Acts 1:6-11
Revelation 1.8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.”
* John identifies the one who was, is, and is to come as "the Lord God" (as well as the Alpha/Omega, aka, the beginning/end).
Consistent with Revelation 1:1, 1:17-18, 2:8, and 22:12-13 is the speaker being Lord God Jesus Christ. Nothing in the text indicates change of focus away from Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:3 (LEB) "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed,” and no one is able to say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit."
Thankful can say & write "Jesus Christ is Lord" (meaning Jesus Christ is Lord God), Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἔστιν κυρίου (Greek), Yeshua HaMashiach Adonai (transliterated Hebrew, which includes Jewish tradition of saying Adonai, "Lord" for God's Holy Name: YHWH).
Revelation 1.8 - Who is the "Alpha and Omega" here? A visual clue comes from red letter editions of the Bible in which this verse is NOT printed in red, indicating translators' conclusions that the words do not come from Jesus.
Counterpoint example is the 1900 King James Version (KJV) in Logos Bible Software having Red Letters in Revelation 1:8 (KJV) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Concur New Living Translation (NLT) does not have Red Letters (for Words of Christ) in Revelation 1:8 while having Red Letters in Revelation 1:17-18 (NLT) When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave." & Revelation 2:8 (NLT) “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:"
Alpha is the First Greek alphabet letter. Omega is the Last Greek Alphabet letter. Hence, "the Alpha and the Omega" = "the First and the Last". Also NLT does not have Red Letters in Revelation 21:5-7 where loud shout from the Throne of God does not identify one(s) speaking while having Red Letters in Revelation 22:12-13 (NLT) “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” & Revelation 22:16 (NLT) “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.”
Revelation 4.8: Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty— the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come.
* For the second time, John explicitly identifies the one who is, was, and is to come as "the Lord God."
Personally believe this phrase usage at God's Throne includes all three voices in One Lord God's commUnity of Love.
Revelation 21.5-7: 5 And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” 6 And he also said, “It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. 7 All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children.
* One sitting on the throne announces the arrival of a holy city from heaven. The announcer self-identifies as 1) "the Alpha and Omega," and 2) the God of "all who are victorious." In and elsewhere in the chapter, John distinguishes between "the Lord God Almighty" and "the Lamb" (who, of course, is Jesus).
We simply disagree on degree of distinction. To me, "the Lamb" (Jesus) is the "Word of God" part of "the one who was, who is, and who is to come" Spiritual Being, who choose to leave God's Throne to dwell in a human body for Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, which is freely available for every sinful human to choose: e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10
If Jesus is "Not God" then Jesus claiming to be more than a special annointed human by saying I AM "the Alpha and the Omega", "the First and the Last", "the Beginning and the End" is false testimony of being God forever (cf. Isaiah 44:6) so the man Jesus would be justly condemned by God as a sinner. Hence Jesus would need a Holy blood substitute for redemption from sin.
Years ago remember Josh McDowell asking: Is Jesus a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord ? Discussion included did Jesus deceive (knowingly = liar, unknowing = lunatic) OR declare Truth about being Lord God (with all of Lord God including Father and Breath the Holy).
Revelation 22.12-13: 12 “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
* Jesus calls himself "the Alpha and the Omega," understandably prompting linkages to - and hence, identifications from - the previous references. But in my view, we must understand these verses in the larger setting of the chapter/book in which they appear.
1) The only two other references to the Alpha/Omega in Revelation clearly specify God, not Jesus.
2) Revelation 22 in two locations distinguishes between God and "the Lamb." (, )
3) Neither before, in, or after vv.12-13 does John link Jesus as the "Alpha/Omega" to God as the "Alpha/Omega."
4) In Revelation 22.20, John calls Jesus "the faithful witness to all these things," presumably the prophetic visions John has supplied in his narrative... and most proximate to that designation, John's proclamation of what God will do to those who add or remove anything written in his book.
1) Revelation 1:11 (KJV) includes: "I am Alpha and Omega ..."
2) We simply disagree on degree of distinction. Did Jesus ever not tell the Truth ?
3) Puzzling assertion since distinctive phrase "Alpha and Omega" describing God includes "Lord God" in Revelation 1:8 & 4:8 and spoken by Jesus in Revelation 1:11 (KJV, 2017 Jantzen Das Neue Testament) & Revelation 22:12
4) Lord God Jesus Christ, The Word of God, is the Righteous faithful witness to do Lord God The Father's will. Revelation 22:20 (LEB) The one who testifies about these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus@YourTruthGod posted:
They mean the same thing, and are even in the same sentences.
God the Father in the Old Testament calls Himself those things, and Jesus calls himself those things.
Phrases with the same meaning do NOT necessarily denote the same identification.
Revelation 1.17 - Jesus says he died. John can't possibly mean Jesus is God because John can't possibly believe God could ever die.
Revelation 22.12, 13 - At no point in Revelation 22 - for that matter, at no point anywhere in his book - does John declare that Jesus is God.
- Rev 22.1,3 - In references to a throne, John distinguishes between God and the Lamb (who is clearly Jesus).
- Rev 22.8-10 - The command is to "worship only God," with no reference to Jesus or the Lamb.
- Rev 22.13 - Jesus self-identifies as Alpha/Omega, First/Last, and Beginning/End but does NOT identify as God.
- Rev 22.16 - Jesus gives his name, but does NOT identify as God.
- Rev 22.18 - God - not Jesus, and not any reference to Jesus - will add plagues to those who adds to what is written in John's book.
- Rev 22.20-21 - John closes his book distinguishing between God and the "Lord Jesus." Note there is NO indication in the text that John wants us to read his references to Jesus as references to God.
Isaiah 44:6 - In this verse, God claims to be the only God. That's consistent with Jesus' prayer in John 17.3 where he defines eternal life as knowing his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God."
Isaiah 48:12 - Again God claims to be the only God.
My point is NOWHERE in Revelation does John link Jesus and God. Yes, John on one occasion uses the same term for both, but NEVER does John say that linkage means Jesus is God.
It remains the question I've asked countless times of Trinity believers in these forums without response: If Bible writers thought Jesus was God, why don't they say it? That sounds like a MAJOR declaration, yet they basically never make it, and in fact, most often through their words indicate that Jesus is NOT God. And if Jesus thought himself to be God, why did he never say it? That's a HUGE claim, yet he never says it, and in fact gives every indication that he doesn't think himself to be God. Why?
Jesus says plainly he is the one who was and is to come.
No. Revelation 1.8 says plainly that "the Lord God" is the one who was, is, and is to come. The verse does NOT say Jesus is "the Lord God."
- Rev 1.6 - John says Jesus has made us "a Kingdom of priests for God his Father." God is not Jesus. God is Jesus' "Father."
- Rev 1.7 - Jesus is the one who comes with the clouds of heaven, the one who was pierced.
- Rev 1.8 - This verse refers to "the Lord God," NOT to Jesus.
Jesus is God the Father come as a man and died for us.
No text in Revelation or any other Bible book says this.
You assert wrongly because you are asserting that I read in a wrong way.
That you disagree with my interpretation of texts has nothing to do with the correctness of my assertion of the value of looking at texts in context.
Not sure why you are using this scripture since it does not disprove anything.
I didn't cite Revelation 1.2 to disprove anything. I cited it as another example of a Bible writer's distinction between God and Jesus.
The word was God.... The word became flesh....Jesus' name is The Word of God
No. The "word" here is a reference to the message God has for creation/humanity, a word given voice in "the testimony of Jesus." The Gospel of John's prologue does not identify Jesus' name as "The Word of God."
I have already proven with scripture that Jesus is the one to come.
Yes, via his return "with the clouds of heaven," Jesus is one who is to come. But it is God, NOT Jesus, who is "the one who is, and who was, and who is to come." Those are DISTINCT references.
Jesus and the Father are one; 'one means 'the same'.
No. We've been down this road many times, so I won't offer a lengthy analysis, but John 17.21,22 make clear that for Jesus to be "one" does NOT mean to be the same. It rather means to be close, intimate, connected. He prays that his followers will be "one JUST AS" he and God are one. By your logic, Jesus therefore prays that his followers will all be the same. That can't possibly be true. In John 17.23 Jesus defines what he means by being "one" - It's "perfect unity."
God had to be made like humans in every way.
No. Hebrews 2 makes clear that the Son is the one who had to be made like humans in every way, not God (Hebrews 2.14). For what purpose? To be "our merciful and faithful High Priest before God." (Hebrews 2.17)
- Hebrews 2.11 declares that "Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father."
- Hebrews 2.12 declares that Jesus reports to God his willingness to "proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters," and to "praise you among your assembled people." Those are NOT the words of a Jesus who believes himself to be God.
Jesus is the one to come, which proves he and the Father are the same.
As demonstrated above, no.
As for Revelation 21:7, that scripture proves Jesus is the Father, for that scripture says he will be our Father.
No. The one speaking from the throne in Revelation 21.7 is God, NOT Jesus. In Revelation 3.21, Jesus makes clear that he is NOT the Father.
So you think John wrote the letters in red?
No. As I indicated in my previous post, I think the red letters indicate "translators' conclusions that the words do not come from Jesus."
The scriptures do show that Jesus is God.
I respect but strongly disagree with your conclusion.
As for the seven lamps being the eyes of Jesus is correct. I am glad that you brought that up, and I want to share more later a long and detailed study I have been doing about that.
My request was not about lamps and eyes, but rather about spirits and angels. Specifically, I asked that you provide textual support for your claim that the seven spirits are what you called "the angels over the churches in the New Testament." I make my request again.
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My request was not about lamps and eyes, but rather about spirits and angels. Specifically, I asked that you provide textual support for your claim that the seven spirits are what you called "the angels over the churches in the New Testament." I make my request again.
The seven lambs are the eyes and are the seven spirits of the lamb.
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
And because angels are called ministering spirits.
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
And because angels do so much so I thought maybe they were being as eyes for God.
Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Revelation 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
The candlesticks are the churches, and the stars are the angles over the churches, so I thought the lamps might be angels holding the fire, and that the fire is God's Spirit.
Post edited by YourTruthGod on -
Phrases with the same meaning do NOT necessarily denote the same identification.
Of course they mean the same thing.
Show how they are different.
Revelation 1.17 - Jesus says he died. John can't possibly mean Jesus is God because John can't possibly believe God could ever die.
Well, Jesus' Spirit is God's Spirit, and spirits don't die.
Revelation 22.12, 13 - At no point in Revelation 22 - for that matter, at no point anywhere in his book - does John declare that Jesus is God.
· Rev 22.1,3 - In references to a throne, John distinguishes between God and the Lamb (who is clearly Jesus).
· Rev 22.8-10 - The command is to "worship only God," with no reference to Jesus or the Lamb.
· Rev 22.13 - Jesus self-identifies as Alpha/Omega, First/Last, and Beginning/End but does NOT identify as God.
· Rev 22.16 - Jesus gives his name, but does NOT identify as God.
· Rev 22.18 - God - not Jesus, and not any reference to Jesus - will add plagues to those who adds to what is written in John's book.
· Rev 22.20-21 - John closes his book distinguishing between God and the "Lord Jesus." Note there is NO indication in the text that John wants us to read his references to Jesus as references to God.
John doesn't have to spell it out for you. Jesus reveals it.
The scripture show that the throne is God the Father's and the Lamb's.
These scriptures show Jesus calling himself the First and the Last,, and God the Father calls Himself the same in Isaiah.
Revelation 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last,
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
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Isaiah 44:6 - In this verse, God claims to be the only God. That's consistent with Jesus' prayer in John 17.3 where he defines eternal life as knowing his Father, the one Jesus calls "the only true God."
Isaiah 48:12 - Again God claims to be the only God.
My point is NOWHERE in Revelation does John link Jesus and God. Yes, John on one occasion uses the same term for both, but NEVER does John say that linkage means Jesus is God.
It remains the question I've asked countless times of Trinity believers in these forums without response: If Bible writers thought Jesus was God, why don't they say it? That sounds like a MAJOR declaration, yet they basically never make it, and in fact, most often through their words indicate that Jesus is NOT God. And if Jesus thought himself to be God, why did he never say it? That's a HUGE claim, yet he never says it, and in fact gives every indication that he doesn't think himself to be God. Why?
No. Revelation 1.8 says plainly that "the Lord God" is the one who was, is, and is to come. The verse does NOT say Jesus is "the Lord God."
· Rev 1.6 - John says Jesus has made us "a Kingdom of priests for God his Father." God is not Jesus. God is Jesus' "Father."
· Rev 1.7 - Jesus is the one who comes with the clouds of heaven, the one who was pierced.
· Rev 1.8 - This verse refers to "the Lord God," NOT to Jesus.
· No text in Revelation or any other Bible book says this.
I didn't cite Revelation 1.2 to disprove anything. I cited it as another example of a Bible writer's distinction between God and Jesus.
Yes, via his return "with the clouds of heaven," Jesus is one who is to come. But it is God, NOT Jesus, who is "the one who is, and who was, and who is to come." Those are DISTINCT references.
No. We've been down this road many times, so I won't offer a lengthy analysis, but John 17.21,22 make clear that for Jesus to be "one" does NOT mean to be the same. It rather means to be close, intimate, connected. He prays that his followers will be "one JUST AS" he and God are one. By your logic, Jesus therefore prays that his followers will all be the same. That can't possibly be true. In John 17.23 Jesus defines what he means by being "one" - It's "perfect unity."
No. Hebrews 2 makes clear that the Son is the one who had to be made like humans in every way, not God (Hebrews 2.14). For what purpose? To be "our merciful and faithful High Priest before God." (Hebrews 2.17)
· Hebrews 2.11 declares that "Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father."
· Hebrews 2.12 declares that Jesus reports to God his willingness to "proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters," and to "praise you among your assembled people." Those are NOT the words of a Jesus who believes himself to be God.
No. The one speaking from the throne in Revelation 21.7 is God, NOT Jesus.
No. As I indicated in my previous post, I think the red letters indicate "translators' conclusions that the words do not come from Jesus."
I respect but strongly disagree with your conclusion.
Jesus says plainly he is the one who was and is to come.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus is the one that was pierced and coming with the clouds.
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In Revelation 3.21, Jesus makes clear that he is NOT the Father.
Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
This scripture says ONE GOD AND FATHER THROUGH ALL the saved:
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
This scripture says Jesus is through all the saved:
John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
Jesus is that one God and Father through all the saved.
This scripture says all things are from God the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live;
This scripture says all things are from Jesus:
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Scriptures that say Jesus is God the Father:
See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
The ROCK that FATHERED them was Christ.
Jesus says those who overcome he will be their GOD and they will be his CHILDREN.
See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
If we are Jesus' children, then he is our Father.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Did you read that scripture? Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?
Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father.
See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.
That means when we see Jesus, we can say, "I see the Father."
God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit. So that is what I call Jesus.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
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@Bill_Coley Phrases with the same meaning do NOT necessarily denote the same identification.
In a High School math class, learned 2 + 2 = ? (whatever number you want if 0 = 1 since algebraic & math logic fails if zero and one symbols are allowed to be interchangeable). For example, 2 + 2 = 4 can have 1 added to both sides: 2 + 2 + 1 = 4 + 1 followed by substituting 0 for 1 (assuming their symbolic equality) so 2 + 2 + 0 = 4 + 1 hence 2 + 2 = 5 that is NOT necessarily true due to faulty assumption.
@Bill_Coley Revelation 1.17 - Jesus says he died. John can't possibly mean Jesus is God because John can't possibly believe God could ever die.
Where does the Bible declare 'God could not die' ? The Lord's suffering servant description in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 does not specify "Word of God" part of "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual One being the Divinity indwelling human body of the lamb led to slaughter. Isaiah 53:11 righteous servant is consistent with Jeremiah 23:5-6 whose righteous branch of David is consistent with Revelation 22:16 (the source of David and the heir to his throne). Holy human body of Jesus Christ died as a substitutionary sin sacrifice, awesome love expression, while the eternal Word of God continued to exist: Ephesians 4:7-10 (ascended & descended). One God resurrected Holy body so death was swallowed up in victory.
What words show belief of John that 'God could not die' ? Remember John was the first disciple to believe physical body resurrection of Jesus (John 20:8 "believed" after seeing linen cloth wrappings inside tomb folded up, but physical body of Jesus Christ was no longer inside that tomb).
Matthew 7:3-5 includes insight about a hypocrite seeing the log in their own eye as a speck in the eye of another person.
Isaiah 53:9 (NLT) "He had done no wrong and had never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave."
Repeating question: Did Jesus ever not tell the Truth ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Remember the man Jesus praying to God the Father in John 17:5 (LEB) And now, Father, you glorify me ⌊at your side⌋ with the glory that I had ⌊at your side⌋ before the world existed. ... John 17:24 (LEB) “Father, those whom you have given to me—I want that those also may be with me where I am, in order that they may see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world." so the man Jesus knew He existed at the side of God the Father before God created the world. Jesus was having the Glory of God and being loved when "the one who is, and was, and is to come" Spiritual Being was the only One alive.
I acknowledge that the pre-existence motif found more than once in Jesus' words in John is an interpretive challenge for me and my Christological views. The Sunday group which I've led on what is currently a fourteen month-old study of every passage in the Bible that's relevant to the issue of Jesus' possible deity just finished its review of John, and we didn't have much success unveiling the meaning and significance of the pre-existence motif either. So I don't know what it means, but I do know John is alone among the Gospels in highlighting it.
In my view, discernment about the deity of Christ must not be based on a single text or motif; it must be grounded in the whole of Scripture, content the vast majority of which in my view clearly declares Jesus not to be God. If 50 passages make clear that Jesus is not God and two passages suggest he IS God. In my view, because the deity of Christ is ultimately a binary choice - either he is or he isn't - we must conclude the message of the whole of those passages is that Jesus is not God. I don't claim that the actual ratio in the NT is 50-2, but it's probably close.
Intriguing interpretive question is: three different sources (contrasting) OR three different descriptions of Jesus Christ (complementary) ?
Linguistically, the language of the verse does not support the three descriptions of Jesus option. In skeletal form the verse offers greetings from A, and from B, and from C, without offering any suggestion - either in content or format - that A and B are appositives to C, which is what a three descriptions view contends. Were they appositives to C, the structure of the verse would be greetings from C, the A and the B, but that's not the verse's format.
Revelation 1.8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega—the beginning and the end,” says the Lord God. “I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come—the Almighty One.”
* John identifies the one who was, is, and is to come as "the Lord God" (as well as the Alpha/Omega, aka, the beginning/end)....
Consistent with Revelation 1:1, 1:17-18, 2:8, and 22:12-13 is the speaker being Lord God Jesus Christ. Nothing in the text indicates change of focus away from Jesus Christ.
I don't contend that the speaker in the verses you cite is someone other than Jesus.
Thankful can say & write "Jesus Christ is Lord" (meaning Jesus Christ is Lord God), Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἔστιν κυρίου (Greek), Yeshua HaMashiach Adonai (transliterated Hebrew, which includes Jewish tradition of saying Adonai, "Lord" for God's Holy Name: YHWH).
I respect that for you, to say Jesus is Lord means to say Jesus is Lord (God), but that's NOT how NT writers and speakers - aside, perhaps, from Thomas in John 20.28 - employ the term when they use it to refer to Jesus. By "Lord" people mean to call Jesus their master or leader.
Counterpoint example is the 1900 King James Version (KJV) in Logos Bible Software having Red Letters in Revelation 1:8 (KJV) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
I offer the red-letters observation only as an example of translators' perspectives on the texts they process, not as the final word on the subject.
Concur New Living Translation (NLT) does not have Red Letters (for Words of Christ) in Revelation 1:8 while having Red Letters in Revelation 1:17-18 (NLT) When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave." & Revelation 2:8 (NLT) “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Smyrna. This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:"
The NLT's red letter choices in those passages make sense because the speaker in the first one - Rev 1.17-18 is NOT the same as the speaker in the second and third ones.
- Revelation 1.8 - According to the verse, the speaker is "the Lord God."
- Revelation 1.17-18, Revelation 2.8 - Both are parts of an extended address from one John describes in Rev 1.13 as "like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest," a figure who in Rev 1.18 self-describes as "the living one" who "died" but who is now "alive forevermore," an apparent reference to the crucified and resurrected Jesus.
Because the words of the first text come from "the Lord God," and not from the son of man figure who seems clearly to be the resurrected Jesus, Rev 1.8 has no red letters. The other two texts, however, because they come from Jesus, are in red.
Alpha is the First Greek alphabet letter. Omega is the Last Greek Alphabet letter. Hence, "the Alpha and the Omega" = "the First and the Last". Also NLT does not have Red Letters in Revelation 21:5-7 where loud shout from the Throne of God does not identify one(s) speaking while having Red Letters in Revelation 22:12-13 (NLT) “Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” & Revelation 22:16 (NLT) “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this message for the churches. I am both the source of David and the heir to his throne. I am the bright morning star.”
This can easily become a game of exegetical whack-a-mole, so I'm not going to pursue other red letter examples, but I point out that...
- The speaker in Rev 21.5-7 is the one "seated on the throne," one who, according to Rev 21.1-4, is God, not Jesus. Hence, the words of vv.5-7 are not in red.
- The speaker in Revelation 22.12-13 is the one who is "coming soon," which seems clearly to refer to Jesus - the same speaker as identified in Rev 22.16. Hence, the words of those verses ARE in red.
Personally believe this phrase usage at God's Throne includes all three voices in One Lord God's commUnity of Love.
We've been down the "commUnity of Love" road countless times, so I think the best we can do is to acknowledge that you believe there is textual support for a "commUnity of Love" and I don't. Those interested in the details of our disagreement are welcome to search the forums, where they will find many returns.
We simply disagree on degree of distinction. To me, "the Lamb" (Jesus) is the "Word of God" part of "the one who was, who is, and who is to come" Spiritual Being, who choose to leave God's Throne to dwell in a human body for Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice, which is freely available for every sinful human to choose: e.g. Ephesians 2:8-10
I agree that we disagree. I find no textual support for your assertion that the Lamb is a part of some other "spiritual being." I believe Jesus is the embodiment of the Word John's Gospel depicts in its prologue, but in my view, that doesn't confer to him membership in some other spiritual being. In addition, as I have shown previously in this thread, in Revelation it is God, not Jesus, who is the one who was, is, and is to come.
If Jesus is "Not God" then Jesus claiming to be more than a special annointed human by saying I AM "the Alpha and the Omega", "the First and the Last", "the Beginning and the End" is false testimony of being God forever (cf. Isaiah 44:6) so the man Jesus would be justly condemned by God as a sinner. Hence Jesus would need a Holy blood substitute for redemption from sin.
We've also been down the "I AM" sayings road countless times, so you undoubtedly know that in my view, in all but one example, the "I am" sayings report Jesus' responses to questions, not assertions of deity. The one example, of course, is John 8.58, which appears to be a pre-existence saying, one my struggles with which I have already acknowledged.
Years ago remember Josh McDowell asking: Is Jesus a Liar, Lunatic, or Lord ? Discussion included did Jesus deceive (knowingly = liar, unknowing = lunatic) OR declare Truth about being Lord God (with all of Lord God including Father and Breath the Holy).
FWIW, I believe Jesus is Lord, not a liar or lunatic.
1) Revelation 1:11 (KJV) includes: "I am Alpha and Omega ..."
The KJV seems to be about the only translation that adds "Alpha and Omega" to that verse.
2) We simply disagree on degree of distinction. Did Jesus ever not tell the Truth ?
I don't understand the import of your question. Did Jesus ever not tell the truth about what?
3) Puzzling assertion since distinctive phrase "Alpha and Omega" describing God includes "Lord God" in Revelation 1:8 & 4:8 and spoken by Jesus in Revelation 1:11 (KJV, 2017 Jantzen Das Neue Testament) & Revelation 22:12
Of a form, you make my point. The "alpha and omega" references are distinct(ive) from each other, and there is nothing in either of them that links them together. That is, I think John the revelator must understand Jesus as alpha and omega differently than he understands the Lord God as alpha and omega. John NEVER says Jesus is God. AGAIN, that sounds like a MAJOR declaration. Why would John - or any other NT writer/speaker, not just say it and say it directly and frequently?!
4) Lord God Jesus Christ, The Word of God, is the Righteous faithful witness to do Lord God The Father's will. Revelation 22:20 (LEB) The one who testifies about these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly!” Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
No text in Revelation says Jesus is "Lord God."
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@Bill_Coley wrote:
I acknowledge that the pre-existence motif found more than once in Jesus' words in John is an interpretive challenge for me and my Christological views. The Sunday group which I've led on what is currently a fourteen month-old study of every passage in the Bible that's relevant to the issue of Jesus' possible deity just finished its review of John, and we didn't have much success unveiling the meaning and significance of the pre-existence motif either. So I don't know what it means, but I do know John is alone among the Gospels in highlighting it.
Not very difficult for me to understand such passages. I just remember how my children already "had certain things with me and my wife" before they were even conceived !! Some would say such was not possible since my children were not alive (which is said to be the same as "did not pre-exist") until conception and birth and therefore could not have had anything with me and my wife at that time. However, such an assumption is a false assumption because for some time already before conception and birth our children DID EXIST - albeit not as living human beings, but in the form of word, thought in our plan for our family. And as such already then "they had certain things with us in our plan", for example, a proper schooling education we planned for them to have, etc.
Considering the matter of Messiah Jesus, the Biblical scriptures are clear that the Messiah existed in God's foreknowledge, in God's plan for man's redemption and salvation from even before the foundation of the world (cp 1Pe 1:20, Joh 1:1) and in God's plan, the Messiah both had suffering and also glory from then on.
Simple, plain, consistent with any and all scriptures in OT and NT with speak of the so-called pre-existance of Christ.
The error is in assuming that the Messiah was literally already alive before his conception and birth ... and to disguise that obvious non-sense, he is then turned into "God" in order to convince others of the impossible, adding that for God "anything is possible" ... and piling error on to error.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
The seven lambs are the eyes and are the seven spirits of the lamb....
A detail of uncalculated significance: In Revelation 5.6, there is one lamb with seven eyes (and horns), not seven lambs.
And because angels do so much so I thought maybe they were being as eyes for God....
The candlesticks are the churches, and the stars are the angles over the churches, so I thought the lamps might be angels holding the fire, and that the fire is God's Spirit.
The issue of the stars and the angels is not a consequential one to me except as it helps to define our respective approaches to biblical exegesis.
In this particular case, I'll note only the rhetorical construct of what seems to be your argument based on a couple of premises. You report that you "thought" or "thought maybe" certain premises led to other conclusions, which led, eventually, to your conclusion about the angels and the stars. In my view, the text nowhere says the stars are the angels, a fact which ends the discussion. With due respect, it seems to me my conclusion about this matter is more definitive than yours.
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My point is not that the phrases don't mean the same thing. My point is that the two phrases don't refer to the same entity. On what basis do I say that? The content and context of the respective texts.
Well, Jesus' Spirit is God's Spirit, and spirits don't die.
But Jesus DID die.
- Rev 1.17 - Jesus says he died.
- Acts 2.23 - Peter tells people in Jerusalem that they killed Jesus.
- Acts 3.15 - Peter tells his audience that they killed Jesus, but God "raised him from the dead."
- 1 Thessalonians 2.15 - Paul reports the killing of Jesus.
John doesn't have to spell it out for you. Jesus reveals it.
Is this your subtle way of acknowledging - you might say "admitting" - the truth of my assertion that there is no NT verse that directly says Jesus is God?
Jesus doesn't reveal his divinity; he testifies to GOD'S divinity. (e.g. John 17.3-4)
The scripture show that the throne is God the Father's and the Lamb's.
Revelation 7.17 - While "the Lamb" is the shepherd who leads those who died in the great tribulation (Rev 7.14) to "springs of life-giving water," it is "God" who wipes away every tear from their eyes.
Revelation 22.1 - The throne is of "God and of the Lamb." The verse contains no reference to the "Father."
These scriptures show Jesus calling himself the First and the Last,, and God the Father calls Himself the same in Isaiah.
I've already addressed this issue in multiple posts, so for now I will only note that nowhere in Revelation does John express reliance on Isaianic texts, and that in those Isaianic texts, the references are to the "LORD," to "Israel's King and Redeemer," to "the LORD of Heaven's Armies," and to "God;" they contain no reference to "God the Father."
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@YourTruthGod posted:
Jesus says plainly he is the one who was and is to come.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Jesus is the one that was pierced and coming with the clouds.
As I noted in previous posts, vv.7-8 and Revelation 1 make two distinct references. In v.7, the reference is to Jesus. In v.8, the reference is to "the Lord God." Hence, these verses report a clear distinction between Jesus and God. Had John wanted us to believe Jesus was God, this was a perfect setting in which to say so. He didn't, and he doesn't anywhere in his book. For him, Jesus and God are clearly NOT the same.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Did Jesus ever not tell the Truth ?
@Bill_Coley I don't understand the import of your question. Did Jesus ever not tell the truth about what?
Do any word(s) of Jesus in the Bible lack Truth about anything ?
@Wolfgang Considering the matter of Messiah Jesus, the Biblical scriptures are clear that the Messiah existed in God's foreknowledge, in God's plan for man's redemption and salvation from even before the foundation of the world (cp 1Pe 1:20, Joh 1:1) and in God's plan, the Messiah both had suffering and also glory from then on.
Simple, plain, consistent with any and all scriptures in OT and NT with speak of the so-called pre-existance of Christ.
The error is in assuming that the Messiah was literally already alive before his conception and birth ... and to disguise that obvious non-sense, he is then turned into "God" in order to convince others of the impossible, adding that for God "anything is possible" ... and piling error on to error.
Faulty assumption is the Messiah did not exist before conception and birth, which contradicts Revelation 22:16 (AV 1900) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." as David lived ~1,000 years before Jesus the Messiah was born. If Jesus did not exist prior to conception, then Jesus could not be the root (source) of David.
John 1:1 begins with the same two words as LXX Genesis 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ (In beginning), which is followed by ἦν (was being) an imperfect verb in John 1:1 (continous action in past time) ὁ λόγος (the word) so the "Word of God" was being before God began to create, which is consistent with the man Jesus knowing God's Glory with God the Father before the world was (John 17:5) and Jesus experiencing God's Love before the foundation of the world (John 17:24). Only One God's Spiritual Being existed before the world was created; planning included God's Love expression to have the Divine "Word of God" portion of God's Spiritual Being leave His Throne in heaven for a miraculous birth to become a Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice brought great Joy to God, which is consistent with Hebrews 12:2.
Do any word(s) of Jesus in the Bible lack Truth about anything ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Do any word(s) of Jesus in the Bible lack Truth about anything ?
No, Jesus' words do not lack anything .... what you make of them lacks just about everything in terms of a biblically based reading and understanding ...
Just "keep smiling for Jesus" ... and leave Jesus' words alone instead of making jokes of them.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Do any word(s) of Jesus in the Bible lack Truth about anything ?
@Wolfgang No, Jesus' words do not lack anything
Luke 3:23-38 lists the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, which includes the ultimate root (source) of David being Adam. How can the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16 (AV 1900) "I am the root and the offspring of David" be truthful without Jesus being Spiritually part of the One God who breathed life into dust to create Adam ?
@Wolfgang .... what you make of them lacks just about everything in terms of a biblically based reading and understanding ... Just "keep smiling for Jesus" ... and leave Jesus' words alone instead of making jokes of them.
Please elaborate what is lacking/joking as seriously no joke was intended because the eternal destiny of your soul & spirit is no joking matter. Praying for you to encounter my friend, Lord Jesus Christ, who is God's Righteous King. Thankful for my 2020 prayer being answered to see the Image of God in every human. You are Special. God Loves You. Does God like our sin ? No. God Loves us. Every person chooses what to love most. My heart desire is to Love God first with everything, treasuring God's Words: want to look into the mirror to see the Image of God in me. Praying to Love myself as God Loves me, which enables God's Love (infinite source) to flow through me to Love my neighbor as myself (Leviticus 19:18).
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Luke 3:23-38 lists the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, which includes the ultimate root (source) of David being Adam. How can the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16 (AV 1900) "I am the root and the offspring of David" be truthful without Jesus being Spiritually part of the One God who breathed life into dust to create Adam ?
How can that be? Plain and simple answer: By YOU not turning it into something "spiritual" which it is not.
Instead,forget your false "spiritual" interpretation and READ the text from Isa 11:1 where you will find the answer.
By the way, this already is sufficient elaboration which requested.
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@YourTruthGod posted:
The exegetical whack-a-mole continues.
Isaiah 64:8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
In John 20.17, the resurrected Jesus confirms this essence of the Isaiah text - that we all have the same God/Father - when he tells Mary that he is "ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." That is, he tells Mary that he and his followers have the same God/Father... which, of course, rules out that he could be the Father.
John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In the prologue of John's Gospel, that through which all things were made is The Word - the logos - not Jesus.
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
I read this verse and the rest of Colossians 1.15-20 as a tribute to Christ, the glorified and risen savior. To understand the author's take on the question of whether Jesus is God, I think we must read the verse in its context. To wit:
- Colossians 1:15 - Christ is the image of God, not God godself.
- Colossians 1:16 - Through Christ, God created everything.
- Colossians 1:19 - God was pleased to live in Christ
- Colossians 1:20,22 - Through Christ, God reconciled everything to godself. Through Christ's blood God made peace with everything in heaven and on earth.
Conclusion: For the author of Colossians, God works through Christ, which, of course, means God and Christ cannot be the same. (c.f. Romans 1.5; 2.16; 3.24; 6.11,23; 2 Cor 1.5; 5.18,21; Gal 3.14; Eph 3.11; Philippians 3.14; 2 Tim 1.9; 1 Pet 1.21)
This scripture says ONE GOD AND FATHER THROUGH ALL the saved:
See my opening comment in this post.
This scripture says Jesus is through all the saved:
Yes. God saves through Jesus, which does NOT mean God IS Jesus.
This scripture says all things are from Jesus:
Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Romans 11.36 is about God, not Jesus. Romans 11.34-35 introduce God as the subject of v.36's praise. Paul only makes two references to Christ in all of Romans 11 (Rom 11.20,25); neither of those references pertains to the praise of God in v.36.
Scriptures that say Jesus is God the Father:
See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
The "Rock" in Deuteronomy 32 is God (Deut 32.3-4), who creates people (Deut 32.6), who established boundaries between peoples (Deut 32.8), to whom the people of Israel belong (Deut 32.9), who guided, nourished, and fed them (Deut 32.12-14), whom Israel eventually abandoned (Deut 32.15).
The rock in 1 Corinthians 10 is symbol of what Paul believes to be the eternal Christ who accompanied the ancients in their journeys. Note in 1 Cor 10.5, Paul says even though the ancients were guided by a cloud and accompanied by an expression of Christ, God still was not pleased with their conduct. V.5 sets up the next section of the chapter, as Paul warns the Corinthians that God will also judge their craving of evil things (1 Cor 10.6), worship of idols (1 Cor 10.7), and sexual immorality (1 Cor 10.7).
Those observations made, important to our discussion is the fact that Paul makes no effort to identify the Christ he believes was present with the ancients (1 Cor 10.4) as the God who created, fed, and eventually abandoned (Deut 32.18).
Jesus says those who overcome he will be their GOD and they will be his CHILDREN.
See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
God, not Jesus, is the speaker in Revelation 21.7.
If we are Jesus' children, then he is our Father.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Did you read that scripture? Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?
Yes, I read that Scripture, which does NOT say Jesus is our Father.
Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans? A mother, for one.
The word "orphans" in this verse reflects a loss of support and companionship, not a loss of parents. The NLT employs the verb "abandon," as in Jesus tells his followers that though he will soon leave them in the physical sense, he will not abandon them - they will see him again and come to know that they are in him and he is in them (John 14.20)
Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father.
See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.
That means when we see Jesus, we can say, "I see the Father."
Jesus tells his followers that the Father is "in" him, that the words he speaks and the work he does are not his own, but those of the Father who is in him (John 14.10). If Jesus believed himself to be the Father, then those words and work WOULD be his own. But they aren't because he is not the Father.
He makes that clear in John 14.12 when he says he's going to be with the Father, and in John 17.4 when in prayer he claims to have brought the Father glory. Also in John 17, Jesus speaks of his followers as people the Father gave him (John 17.6). If Jesus believed he was the Father, it would not have been necessary (or possible) for the Father to give him his followers; he would have given them to himself.
God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit. So that is what I call Jesus.
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The titles given in Isaiah 9.6 are to a child already born in Isaiah's time - "a child IS born to us" - a child whose birth is a sign of the truth of the prophet's declarations found at the beginning of the chapter ("The people who walk in darkness will see a great light" et al, Isaiah 9.1-5). The titles given in Isaiah 9.6 are used by Christians to help report and explain God's action in Christ, but in their original form, they did not refer to a child who would be born 700+ years later.
It's worthy of note that no New Testament writer quotes Isaiah 9.6 or attaches the verse's titles to Jesus.
Malachi 2:10 Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?
Malachi uses "Father" as a synonym for God, the one the prophet declares created us all. There is no indication in this verse that the prophet believes the "Father" will one day walk among us as a fellow human being.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Luke 3:23-38 lists the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, which includes the ultimate root (source) of David being Adam. How can the words of Jesus in Revelation 22:16 (AV 1900) "I am the root and the offspring of David" be truthful without Jesus being Spiritually part of the One God who breathed life into dust to create Adam ?
@Wolfgang How can that be? Plain and simple answer: By YOU not turning it into something "spiritual" which it is not.
Instead,forget your false "spiritual" interpretation and READ the text from Isa 11:1 where you will find the answer.
Isaiah 11:1 (AV 1900) "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots:" is truthfully consistent with Jesus being the offspring (branch - netzer) of David, but leaves unanswered about truthfulness of Jesus saying "I am the root ... of David"
The genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, in Luke 3:23-38 records Jesus being born once so the only truthful "root of David" option is Jesus being part of One God when God breathed life into dust to create Adam, which is consistent with Jesus having God's Glory (John 17:5) and experiencing God's Love (John 17:24) before the world was created.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus The genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, in Luke 3:23-38 records Jesus being born once so the only truthful "root of David" option is Jesus being part of One God when God breathed life into dust to create Adam, which is consistent with Jesus having God's Glory (John 17:5) and experiencing God's Love (John 17:24) before the world was created.
Could you make thingst more theologically fancy ? Why not understand what is actually written in a plain simple manner?
Truth is always simple ....
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