Speaking In Tongues
What are they? Do they exist?
Is the popular use of a "prayer language" what they are speaking of?
What are your thoughts?
Comments
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@davidtaylorjr said:
Is the popular use of a "prayer language" what they are speaking of?
The phrase, "Prayer Language" is a commonly used phrase in Pentecostal circles referring to the ability to speak in tongues. When one checks the context and marginal reading, in the Bible, it means a language ("foreign" or "unknown"). This one of the many gifts to the church. One that will help the growth and development of the church and not for individuals to show unusual holiness.
On the other hand, the phrase, "Prayer Language", could mean praying the Psalms because they are Christ's psalms. According to Bonhoeffer:
"How is it possible for a man and Jesus Christ to pray the Psalter together? It is the incarnate Son of God, who has borne every human weakness in his own flesh, who here pours out the heart of all humanity before God and who stands in our place and prays for us. He has known torment and pain, guilt and death more deeply than we. Therefore it is the prayer of the human nature assumed by him which comes here before God. It is really our prayer, but since he knows us better that we know ourselves and since he himself was true man for our sakes, it is also really his prayer, and it can become our prayer only because it was his prayer."
Bonhoeffer, Dietrich. Psalms: The Prayer Book of the Bible. Translated by James H. Burtness. Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1970, 21-22. CM
Post edited by C Mc on -
I would note that the passage in 1Co 12:7-11 provides elementary truths concerning "speaking in tongues", in that speaking in tongues is listed as one of several manifestation of the spirit.
1Co 12:7-11
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.There is one gift of holy spirit which is given to every believer in Christ, and this one gift energizes ("worketh") the various manifestation (manifestation = outwardly recognizable evidence) as believers utilize these.
Thus, just as the other manifestation listed, speaking in tongues is not a reference to a natural ability or talent, it is not something a person can do by means of their talent, natural ability, education or training; rather it is something done by means of the gift of holy spirit (spiritual power - gr. dunamis ) enabling a believer to do these.These manifestation listed are NOT each "spiritual gifts", but they are a manifestation. an outward evidence of one gift, the gift holy spirit, which the believer receives at the time they believe on Christ.
An illustration: I think we all know a car battery ... there is one battery in a car, with electrical power potential we can not see as such. Now, this one battery (power source) enables (works) various manifestations (outwardly recognizable evidence), such as starting the engine when the key is turned, such as lighting up lights when the button is pushed, such as enabling the radio to play, etc ... Are there many different gifts (batteries) in the car? No. One battery - various different evidences that are enabled by this one gift.
Same with the gift of holy spirit ... one spirit power source, which enables those various manifestation / outwardly recognizable evidences, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, working of miracles, word of knowledge, etc ....
Just some basic observations from the text in 1Co 12:7-1, which hopefully will provide some foundation for further considerations of other passages regarding the same manifestation of the spirit.
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I have some experience in Pentecostalism but became a Cessationist. Anyone can google "Cessationist" and read many good arguments for or against. But here is a rundown of my position if any might be interested.
I'm a cessationist believing tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge would end when "that which is perfect came". That which is perfect (complete) being the writings that now make up the New Testament.
Paul says, "for we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect [Or "when completion"] comes, the partial will be set aside." 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 (NET)
"And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13 (NET)
Paul contrasts tongues, interpretation of tongues, and knowledge with love, faith and hope. If as some say, prophecy, tongues and interpretation remain until the end of the world, Paul's comparison is meaningless.
Moreover Peter said; “For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” (2 Peter 1:17–20)
So how does God speak today beyond scripture? He speaks through the motive of love in our hearts. If you make God's love Lord of your thoughts and actions, you made the right choice regardless. If hatred provides the motive, you did not. And Paul says; “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)
It doesn't fit to assign "that which is perfect" to anything but scripture. Paul used the phrase to show a contrast between his present day Church and the Church's immediate future.
The first being when tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge functioned along with love, faith and hope. And the second when love, faith and hope would remain and tongues, prophecy and the word of knowledge would vanish.
He does not speak of Heaven as being "that which is perfect", because hope and faith vanish there too, when everything becomes real through experience. There, of all the gifts, only love remains. Because faith is the evidence of things hoped for (Hebrews 11:1). And in Heaven, the things hoped for will be evident.
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@Wolfgang said:
I would note that the passage in 1Co 12:7-11 provides elementary truths concerning "speaking in tongues", in that speaking in tongues is listed as one of several manifestation of the spirit.There is one gift of holy spirit which is given to every believer in Christ, and this one gift energizes ("worketh") the various manifestation (manifestation = outwardly recognizable evidence) as believers utilize these.
Thus, just as the other manifestation listed, speaking in tongues is not a reference to a natural ability or talent, it is not something a person can do by means of their talent, natural ability, education or training; rather it is something done by means of the gift of holy spirit (spiritual power - gr. dunamis ) enabling a believer to do these.These manifestation listed are NOT each "spiritual gifts", but they are a manifestation. an outward evidence of one gift, the gift holy spirit, which the believer receives at the time they believe on Christ.
An illustration: I think we all know a car battery ... there is one battery in a car, with electrical power potential we can not see as such. Now, this one battery (power source) enables (works) various manifestations (outwardly recognizable evidence), such as starting the engine when the key is turned, such as lighting up lights when the button is pushed, such as enabling the radio to play, etc ... Are there many different gifts (batteries) in the car? No. One battery - various different evidences that are enabled by this one gift.
Same with the gift of holy spirit ... one spirit power source, which enables those various manifestation / outwardly recognizable evidences, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, working of miracles, word of knowledge, etc ....
Just some basic observations from the text in 1 Co 12:7-1, which hopefully will provide some foundation for further considerations of other passages regarding the same manifestation of the spirit.
In view of what you just outlined (One Spirit- many gifts or manifestations), is the case to put "speaking in tongues" in its place. God gives gifts to whom He wills. No one gift is greater than the other. Everyone doesn't have to have the same gift or ability to speak in a foreign tongue. The gifts given to the church is to edify, to strengthen and ennoble the body (the church) for growth and service. Let us be opened to receive and don't compare what is given. Blessings. CM
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@Dave_L said:
I have some experience in Pentecostalism but became a Cessationist. Anyone can google "Cessationist" and read many good arguments for or against. But here is a rundown of my position if any might be interested.I'm a cessationist believing tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge would end when "that which is perfect came". That which is perfect (complete) being the writings that now make up the New Testament.
Following your suggestion, I found that the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ generally maintain a “cessationist” view of charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, which means that they believe that miraculous gifts (i.e., miraculous healing, speaking in tongues, raising individuals from the dead, etc.) served a specific purpose within biblical history and have since been abandoned by God as the normal pattern in the post-apostolic Church Age (Cottrell, J. (2002). The faith once for all: Bible doctrine for today. Joplin, MO: College Press., pp. 297-305).
Should we expect to see miracles, signs, and wonders in the church today? Cessationists
say No. But, the Bible seems to say otherwise (see, Mark 16:15-18; 1 Cor 12:7-11; 28-30). Why would there be Satan’s lying signs and wonders? Christ’s warning about them suggests that we should expect to see them in the church today.What is the ultimate purpose of true signs and wonders? In the OT, the purpose of “signs and wonders” was to call people back to the saving acts of God (Deut 6:20-24). They were designed so Israel would believe, and not to forget, the wonders performed by God (Ps 78:11-12; 106:7; 77:11, 15; 105:5).
To be balanced, a view of the New Testament, the Bible teaches that besides the immediate relief to its recipients, the ultimate purpose is to bring people to faith in Christ and His Word (John 20:30-31). One scholar said "signs are like signposts; they point to realities beyond themselves. All true signs from God must lead to a belief in the Word of the Lord and the Lord of the Word." CM
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@C_M_ said:
Following your suggestion, I found that the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ generally maintain a “cessationist” viewThe above, in my opinion, is an accurate and very well written statement. 'Generally maintain' is correct as most of the autonomous congregations within the restoration movement that I am aware of take a cessationist point of view, however some Christian Churches/Churches of Christ missionaries I have met hold to continuationism.
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
I have some experience in Pentecostalism but became a Cessationist. Anyone can google "Cessationist" and read many good arguments for or against. But here is a rundown of my position if any might be interested.I'm a cessationist believing tongues, prophecy and word of knowledge would end when "that which is perfect came". That which is perfect (complete) being the writings that now make up the New Testament.
Following your suggestion, I found that the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ generally maintain a “cessationist” view of charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit, which means that they believe that miraculous gifts (i.e., miraculous healing, speaking in tongues, raising individuals from the dead, etc.) served a specific purpose within biblical history and have since been abandoned by God as the normal pattern in the post-apostolic Church Age (Cottrell, J. (2002). The faith once for all: Bible doctrine for today. Joplin, MO: College Press., pp. 297-305).
Should we expect to see miracles, signs, and wonders in the church today? Cessationists
say No. But, the Bible seems to say otherwise (see, Mark 16:15-18; 1 Cor 12:7-11; 28-30). Why would there be Satan’s lying signs and wonders? Christ’s warning about them suggests that we should expect to see them in the church today.What is the ultimate purpose of true signs and wonders? In the OT, the purpose of “signs and wonders” was to call people back to the saving acts of God (Deut 6:20-24). They were designed so Israel would believe, and not to forget, the wonders performed by God (Ps 78:11-12; 106:7; 77:11, 15; 105:5).
To be balanced, a view of the New Testament, the Bible teaches that besides the immediate relief to its recipients, the ultimate purpose is to bring people to faith in Christ and His Word (John 20:30-31). One scholar said "signs are like signposts; they point to realities beyond themselves. All true signs from God must lead to a belief in the Word of the Lord and the Lord of the Word." CM
Thanks for your comments. I'm a cessationist, believing all tongue speaking and prophecy since the death of the Apostles is false. But I believe in divine healing through the prayer of faith. Also the Christian's power over demonic forces in Jesus' name. But lying signs and wonders of false believers is just that, lying signs and wonders comprised of psychosomatic healings, with smoke and mirrors.
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@Dave_L said:
Thanks for your comments. I'm a cessationist, believing all tongue speaking and prophecy since the death of the Apostles is false. But I believe in divine healing through the prayer of faith. Also the Christian's power over demonic forces in Jesus' name. But lying signs and wonders of false believers is just that, lying signs and wonders comprised of psychosomatic healings, with smoke and mirrors.
Dave,
As a cessationist, you don't believe Romans 8:26, which says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered? Whichever way, how do you explain this text, it its context? CM -
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for your comments. I'm a cessationist, believing all tongue speaking and prophecy since the death of the Apostles is false. But I believe in divine healing through the prayer of faith. Also the Christian's power over demonic forces in Jesus' name. But lying signs and wonders of false believers is just that, lying signs and wonders comprised of psychosomatic healings, with smoke and mirrors.
Dave,
As a cessationist, you don't believe Romans 8:26, which says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered? Whichever way, how do you explain this text, it its context? CMThe Spirit makes groanings that cannot be uttered [by us].
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for your comments. I'm a cessationist, believing all tongue speaking and prophecy since the death of the Apostles is false. But I believe in divine healing through the prayer of faith. Also the Christian's power over demonic forces in Jesus' name. But lying signs and wonders of false believers is just that, lying signs and wonders comprised of psychosomatic healings, with smoke and mirrors.
Dave,
As a cessationist, you don't believe Romans 8:26, which says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered? Whichever way, how do you explain this text, it its context? CMI have often heard this cited in defense of speaking in tongues. However, there is no evidence, as @Dave_L indicated, that we are the ones actually doing that groaning and uttering.
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David,
No. I m not trying to defend speaking in tongues. the Romans passage speaks of the believer who is made one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor 6:17, 19; Romans 8:26). The Holy Spirit intercedes and assists in prayer. Romans 8:26, 27; Ephesians 2: 18; Jude 20.
Again, David, you are correct in referring to hypotheses of the non-human speech theories. They tend to cover the principal reasons behind the modern swing away from the traditional human language/evangelism viewpoint. Bible readers should retain the traditional view that this gift constitutes the ability to speak in other human languages without having to learn them first.
The two major schools of thought concerning glossolalia.
1. The first is the historical view which claims that speaking in tongues refers to the God-given ability to speak in other human languages without having to learn them first and that it was given for the purpose of evangelism.
2. The second view is that glossolalia refers to some sort of non-human speech, be it ecstatic or otherwise.The Romans passage has to do, mostly, with the Spirit aiding our prayers. CM
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@C_M_ said:
David,No. I m not trying to defend speaking in tongues. the Romans passage speaks of the believer who is made one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor 6:17, 19; Romans 8:26). The Holy Spirit intercedes and assists in prayer. Romans 8:26, 27; Ephesians 2: 18; Jude 20.
Again, David, you are correct in referring to hypotheses of the non-human speech theories. They tend to cover the principal reasons behind the modern swing away from the traditional human language/evangelism viewpoint. Bible readers should retain the traditional view that this gift constitutes the ability to speak in other human languages without having to learn them first.
The two major schools of thought concerning glossolalia.
1. The first is the historical view which claims that speaking in tongues refers to the God-given ability to speak in other human languages without having to learn them first and that it was given for the purpose of evangelism.
2. The second view is that glossolalia refers to some sort of non-human speech, be it ecstatic or otherwise.The Romans passage has to do, mostly, with the Spirit aiding our prayers. CM
Thanks Charles, I offer a third view concerning glossolalia that seems more in line with Corinthians (possibly a new topic). Have you considered that the Apostles spoke in one heavenly language on the day of Pentecost? But each of the devout Jews (Born-Again) also received the gift of interpretation during the outpouring? And each interpreted the one heavenly language in his own national language?
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