"The Father" and "The Son"

Jesus is God and since there is only one God and He is the Father, Jesus must be that one and only God the Father come as a son.

Obeying Jesus is obeying his commandments; worshiping him as what he is => that Messiah whom God had promised He would send and who Jesus was.

Worshiping both the Father and also Jesus as God equals worshiping TWO Gods ... whatever label one puts on it to give a different impression does not change that plain truth.

At the risk of creating another "long and irrelevant [thing]... about God and the Bible," I note that in my view, there is not a strong biblical case to be made that Jesus sits on his throne as God:

• In Matthew 19.28, Jesus says the Son of Man will sit on "his glorious throne" at the same time his followers "also sit on twelve thrones." So what is the meaning of "throne" in Jesus' mind? We get a sense that he asserts the existence of more than one kind of throne:
• In Matthew 23.22, he refers to "the throne of God," on which, he specifies, God sits.
• And in Mark 10.40, in response to a request from James and John to sit on the right and left of Jesus on his "glorious throne" (Mark 10.37) Jesus says he has no say in who occupies those positions. He says "God has prepared those places for the ones he has chosen,"

I contend the Mark 10 passage is crucial in the "Is Jesus God?" debate. James and John say, "Let us sit next to you when you're on your throne, Jesus." Jesus says, "That's not up to me; that's up to God." How is Jesus' reply not a clear and inarguable announcement that he does NOT see himself as God? @YourTruthGod, I hope you'll address answer that question and the meaning of Mark 10.40 directly and without dismissive one-liners.

Back to the issue of Jesus on the throne:

• Note that Hebrews 12.2 says Jesus is seated "in the place of honor beside God's throne."
• ... and that the one on the throne in Revelation 4 is clearly God, Jesus being the who is worthy to open the scroll in Revelation 5.
• The one who sits on the throne is clearly different from the lamb (Revelation 6.16; Revelation 7.10)
• The one sitting on the throne in Revelation 21.5 is, in context, clearly God, not Jesus. (notice his words are not printed in red)
• Only Revelation 7.17, at least in the NLT, suggests the Lamb is on the throne. A note in that translation as well as other translations in their main texts, says the Greek means "in the middle/midst of the throne."

Bottom line: There is not a strong biblical case to be made that Jesus will be on the throne as God. In fact, in pursuit of that issue, we discover direct evidence that Jesus believes he is not God.

Bill and Wolf, who lives in your heart when you got saved?

@YourTruthGod wrote

And I do so by worshiping only God (the Father, the Creator, the Almighty) as God.

An answer to that question depends on AS WHAT you are worshiping Jesus ....

If you worship him AS GOD, you are actually disobeying him and not following him and what he himself believed and often stated => that only his Father is true God.

I worship Jesus as the Messiah whom God sent and whom God made both Christ and Lord; I regard him as my Lord and savior, as he carried out Gpd's plan for man's redemption and salvation by his obedience to God's will in all things.

Who is supposed "to live in my heart" when I got saved? I hear this phrase about "Jesus lives in my heart" quite often, just never read anything like that in the Bible ... I would venture to say that those who talk that way are speaking about some personal emotion rather than something Biblical-

I did read in Col 3:16 the following: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms [and] hymns [and] spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God." And ever since I got saved have endeavored to live accordingly and let the word of Christ dwell in me richly.

You don't worship Jesus?

We are told to worship God alone.

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Matthew 4:10 "Away from me, Satan!" Jesus declared. "For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'"

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

You didn't even know that Jesus is the Holy Spirit and the Father and that they live in the heart. You go against me and say all kinds of things against the truth.

Matthew's Gospel reports the wisemen's entry into Jerusalem in their search for the one whose star they had seen rise. Matthew quotes the wisemen as asking, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.” (Matthew 2.2, ESV) So they didn't search for one to "worship" as God, but rather for one to worship as the "king of the Jews." The point of my previous response that I worship only God as God was to eliminate confusion as to who received my worship as God - only God does.

In your view, did the wisemen come to Jerusalem with sinful intent when they came to "worship" the one who had been born the "king of the Jews"? Matthew's telling of the story offers no adjustment, correction, or condemnation of the wisemen's stated objective. Do you?

I think this is an interesting, but ultimately immaterial question. And if I practiced what you practice - refusing to respond to questions I don't like, can't answer, or don't believe are relevant - I would stop right here. But I have a different practice. You ask. I answer... directly.

I think there are lots of terms at play in the question of who lives in us after the resurrection:

• The resurrected Jesus told his disciples that he would be with them til the end of the age. (Matthew 28.20) suggesting that Jesus would live in us.
• But before the crucifixion, Jesus told his followers that the one who would live in them forever would not be he, but rather an "Advocate" he called "the Holy Spirit." (John 14.16-17) In that scene, Jesus makes no attempt to identify himself as the Holy Spirit who will live with his followers. In fact, he tells the disciples that the Holy Spirit is an advocate he (Jesus) will ask God to provide after the resurrection.
• Paul uses "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ" interchangeably in Romans 8.9-10
• But Paul says it is "the Spirit of God" who lives in us in 1 Corinthians 3.16
• And in 1 Corinthians 6.19, Paul says we are the temple of "the Holy Spirit" who "lives" in us and was given to us by God.

I use "Holy Spirit" and "the Spirit of God" interchangeably. I accept Peter's word in Acts 2.36 that God "made" Jesus "Lord and Christ," a process that occurred, in my view, at Jesus' baptism when the spirit of God fell on him. So when I refer to the spirit of Christ, I mean the same spirit that was in Jesus... which effectively is the Spirit of God.

Does Jesus himself live in me? I don't claim that to be true because I don't believe there is sufficient biblical warrant for it. There IS warrant, however, for the idea that the Spirit that was in Jesus lives in me.

What I should pray for is your direct response to the question I have posed to you twice and am about to offer for a third time:

Here's your chance to explain biblical "truth" to me! You have an opportunity to set me straight, from the text to show me how I am misunderstanding Mark 10.40. Yet you refuse to take it, and don't even show the courtesy of declaring your refusal to respond directly to my questions. Instead you offer one-liner dismissals of and distractions from my questions.

Some weeks ago, I had to ask you the same question six times before you answered it. Currently, I'm up to three requests on this Mark 10 question. At some point - and I think that point has now arrived - I think it will be fair to conclude you're not willing to engage with me on biblical texts. You'll create all manner of excuses and explanations for that reality, but the bottom line to me is that if you had strong responses to my questions - say on Mark 10.40 - you'd give them. The fact that you almost never respond directly to my questions about Scripture tells me you don't have strong responses - those texts say what I say they say, NOT what you say they say - but you're not willing to acknowledge that fact.

But now is your chance to change your pattern of refusal to address my questions. Here's prayin'!!

Jesus allowed people to worship him period, because he is God.

No, correction because Jesus is God.

No, you have to know now before the resurrection.

Jesus says that he himself will live in the saved.

Jesus is the one who was living with them and who would live in them.

John 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

God came as a man. What do you want a man to say?

When you start with the same irritating talk I only tune you out,

You contend that the infant Jesus allowed the wisemen to worship him, because he was God? Where in the biblical text do you find support for your view? As I read the Matthew story, I see no reference to the infant Jesus' having ANY say as to whether the wisemen entered the house where he lived, let alone whether they worshiped him as "God" or, as they declared their mission, as "the king of the Jews." Please cite the verse(s) upon which you base your claim.

Where in the Matthew story do you find support for the view that the wisemen had any idea that they were worshiping anyone other than the one they believed was "the king of the Jews"?

The reference to "resurrection" in my previous post concerned our living, today, after the resurrection of Jesus. In addition, five of the six texts I cited in that post clearly reported about the time after the resurrection of Jesus (e.g. Matthew 28.20, and all of Paul's letters)

The verse you cite is indeed one of the images Jesus used to describe an ongoing presence with his followers. But my point is that Jesus ALSO told his followers that he would NOT be the one who was with them, that he would ask God to send an Advocate, the one called "the Holy Spirit," who would be with them always. (John 14.16-17) Did Jesus consider himself to be the Holy Spirit? There is no textual evidence that he did. In John 14, for example, he speaks of the Holy Spirit as "he" and "him," not as "I" and "me."

As I argued, there are synonymous terms floated in the NT text. In my view, for Paul, "Jesus Christ" is a synonym for "the Spirit of Christ" found in Romans 8.9-10.

I expect him to be consistent!

Your recurring claim is that Jesus himself said he was God. This one you acknowledge was a "man" claimed to God, you argue. But in Mark 10.40, he gives an answer that cannot be read any other way than that he did NOT think he was God. Why would Jesus contradict what you claim is his own divinity? He had to know that James and John would leave that conversation with him believing God, not Jesus, handed out seats around the throne, which meant Jesus was not and could not be God (which wasn't a reach, of course, because Jesus had given them no reason to believe he was God!) Why would Jesus risk his followers' reaching what you claim is a false conclusion?

No.

Worship NO ONE but God.

Where in the birth stories do you find support for your claim that Jesus filled John the Baptist and Elizabeth with the Spirit? Luke 1.41 reports that Elizabeth experienced two distinct events: 1) her child leaping in her womb, and 2) being filled with the Holy Spirit. In no translation I consulted does the verse does report that Jesus filled her with the Spirit. Please cite the verse(s) that support your contention.

In a previous post related to the wisemen's visit in Matthew 2, you asserted that "Jesus allowed people to worship him period, because he is God." In response, I asked whether you contend that the infant Jesus "allowed" the wisemen to worship him. Your response here does not address the question I asked, so I ask it again: Do you contend that the infant Jesus "allowed" the wisemen to worship him?

Do I "pretend God would speak...."? No. In the Matthew text, of course, it is the wisemen, not God, who speak of worshiping the newborn king of the Jews. (Matthew 2.1-2) The question I asked about them made no assumption of God's involvement in the wisemen's belief that they were going to worship the king of the Jews, and in fact, assumed that they (the wisemen) decided on their own to worship the king of the Jews. Do you believe God led them to believe they were on a mission to worship such a king? In Matthew 2.6, leading teachers of religious law define the promised messiah to King Herod as a "ruler" and "leader" who will "shepherd" God's people. That's pretty much whom the wisemen thought they traveled to worship.

@YourTruthGod, do you not see that in the verses you listed NOBODY worshiped God? They showed deep respect and love and reference to the man Jesus, some even falling down at his feet and embracing him

@YourTruthGod

I rather have a quite different impression concerning who is blind when reading scriptures and other participants' posts

I can only repeat the obvious: NOBODY in the verses you listed is said to have worshiped God in those instances ... they worshiped the man Jesus in relation to certain aspects of his person or actions he had performed ... Nobody thought of Jesus being God.

Certainly, they knew that God is not a man and that God does not have a physical body with feet,etc

@Wolfgang , do you really think that the apostle John fell at the angels feet to worship him had in mind to worship the angel as God?

Revelation 22:8-9 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Read this scripture. Cornelius fell at Peter's feet IN REVERENCE, but Peter stopped him.

Acts 10:25-26 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Why do you go against the truth so much, Wolf?

@YourTruthGod, simply read what the verses say, for example this one:

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

If the folks in the boat knew that they had God in their boat, why did they worship BUT NOT address the one whom they worshiped as "God" ??

No one among the Israelite believers regarded a man to be God. All know that God is SPIRIT and dwells IN HEAVEN (at least that is what Jesus himself emphatically taught his followers).

Why do you flat out contradict Jesus?