Physical Kingdom Problems

24567…13

Comments

  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

    Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

    Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?

    Satan is perfectly bound by the gospel and that is all Revelation requires. Nations = fulfillment of Abraham's promise. When he is loosed, he will attack the kingdom with lies, siphoning off all but the truly born again. (happening now).

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

    Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?

    Satan is perfectly bound by the gospel and that is all Revelation requires. Nations = fulfillment of Abraham's promise. When he is loosed, he will attack the kingdom with lies, siphoning off all but the truly born again. (happening now).

    No that is not all that Revelation requires. Revelation requires that he is bound and SEALED OFF for 1,000 years. He has not been sealed off. He still deceives. What about the 1,000 years?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Posts: 1,368
    edited October 2018

    1. Dave, if you say you are presently in all the Kingdom there is ever going to be for you, I believe you. If you say you do not expect to enter a future kingdom of God, sadly, I believe you. The point to our argument is that there is a lot to gain by having more than this and the Bible explains it well enough.

    2. Why would you have the Bride stay asleep at a time like this?

    Post edited by GaoLu on
    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    Dave,
    Help me to understand your position on the matters below:

    1. Do you subscribe to the "Amillennialism" teachings? If you do, concisely, what is it's understanding?
    2. Is it biblical?
    3. What texts give support?
    4. Will the church go through a time of tribulation BEFORE or AFTER the return of Christ.
      • If BEFORE-- where will the believers go?
      • If AFTERWARD -- where will the believers go?
    5. Do you believe heaven to be a real place?
    6. Is heaven a spiritual place?

    Thanks for your consideration. CM

    PS. Others are at liberty to answer the questions, if interested. CM

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @C_M_ said:
    Dave,
    Help me to understand your position on the matters below:

    1. Do you subscribe to the "Amillennialism" teachings? If you do, concisely, what is it's understanding?
    2. Is it biblical?
    3. What texts give support?
    4. Will the church go through a time of tribulation BEFORE or AFTER the return of Christ.
      • If BEFORE-- where will the believers go?
      • If AFTERWARD -- where will the believers go?
    5. Do you believe heaven to be a real place?
    6. Is heaven a spiritual place?

    Thanks for your consideration. CM

    PS. Others are at liberty to answer the questions, if interested. CM

    Good questions @C_M_ I'm interested to see the answers that will follow.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @C_M_ said:
    Dave,
    Help me to understand your position on the matters below:

    1. Do you subscribe to the "Amillennialism" teachings? If you do, concisely, what is it's understanding?
    2. Is it biblical?
    3. What texts give support?
    4. Will the church go through a time of tribulation BEFORE or AFTER the return of Christ.
      • If BEFORE-- where will the believers go?
      • If AFTERWARD -- where will the believers go?
    5. Do you believe heaven to be a real place?
    6. Is heaven a spiritual place?

    Thanks for your consideration. CM

    PS. Others are at liberty to answer the questions, if interested. CM

    Thanks for your interest in my end times position.

    I hold most of the Amillennial views. So if you study Amillennialism, you can gain more insight than what I can present here.

    I wouldn't hold to the position if I didn't believe it to be closest to what scripture teaches.

    Jesus and eventually the disciples were Amillennial. They never encouraged belief in a physical kingdom in their words or writings. The kingdom was always spiritual and present as it is now.

    The great tribulation Jesus spoke of happened in 70 AD. Josephus will confirm this is the worst event in human history, not in numbers of casualties, but in horrors and suffering.

    We remain in tribulation until Christ returns.

    Heaven is spiritual as is the kingdom of Heaven, aka the kingdom of God.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Dave, if you say you are presently in all the Kingdom there is ever going to be for you, I believe you. If you say you do not expect to enter a future kingdom of God, sadly, I believe you. The point to our argument is that there is a lot to gain by having more than this and the Bible explains it well enough.

    1. Why would you have the Bride stay asleep at a time like this?

    Look at it this way. God rules the universe and the earth is his foot stool. Jesus is God. So he already does what people ignore and want him to do in a future kingdom lasting a measly 1000 years wracked with sin and death. Which is impossible if you consider flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

    Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?

    Satan is perfectly bound by the gospel and that is all Revelation requires. Nations = fulfillment of Abraham's promise. When he is loosed, he will attack the kingdom with lies, siphoning off all but the truly born again. (happening now).

    No that is not all that Revelation requires. Revelation requires that he is bound and SEALED OFF for 1,000 years. He has not been sealed off. He still deceives. What about the 1,000 years?

    All is true and has been the case since Jesus first preached the gospel of the kingdom. If you are truly "Reformed", you should know that "nations" = the elect throughout the world. And the gospel binds Satan from keeping them from Christ.

    The angel = Greek for messenger

    the chain = the message (gospel) The gospel sent to all nations keeps Satan from deceiving the nations.

    the 1000 years = Satan bound. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.

    Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

    Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the nations deceived and the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

    “Jesus said, “This voice has not come for my benefit but for yours. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.” (John 12:30–31)

    So in essence, Revelation 20 is a panorama of the entire New Covenant era. Not a physical kingdom of the future.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks, Dave,
    Until you find all the answers to your questions on the kingdom, discontinue saying and avoid repeating with voice or in writing certain things. Namely, belief about the Book of Revelation. To insist on saying such is an insult to God and the very name of the book, Revelation, which means to "reveal" or to "uncover", "unfold", etc. To fear God is the beginning of wisdom. You must consider certain factors:

    1. Nature of the Bible book (literal or prophetic)
    2. The audience being addressed
    3. Context -- when it comes to the kingdom
    4. Suspend with preconceived ideas and conclusions. Allow the text to breathe and speak for itself.
    5. Is there only one Kingdom in the Bible?
    6. A systematic study of the Bible, a book or chapter may prove to be more helpful to you than topics. After such type aforementioned, you may find connecting the dots more fruitful and beneficial.

    Please give my suggestions some thought. An opened mind leads to a fuller understanding of God's Word and all truth. CM

    But, if you believe a future physical kingdom is foretold in Revelation, despite Jesus' words, defining the kingdom as exclusively spiritual, you add false prophecy to the book against John's better warnings.

    Where did Jesus say his Kingdom was EXCLUSIVELY spiritual?

    Many times. The challenge is to find one time where he says it is physical.

    Jesus did not have to say it was physical at some point, Revelation tells us that.

    Not so. It is purely spiritual according to Jesus.

    Where does he say it is exclusively spiritual? He doesn't.

    You should know your bible better than this. Where does he ever hint that it is physical?

    Again, Jesus is not the only speaker in the Bible and it is not a good Biblical hermeneutic to say that if Jesus didn't say it then it isn't so. There are a lot of topics Jesus did not address in his words during his time on earth.

    That being said, you have made a positive claim that Jesus stated that the Kingdom is EXCLUSIVELY spiritual. If that is true, which it isn't, show the verse, please.

    I have already shown you that Revelation talks about a physical kingdom. Obviously, you disagree with that interpretation but that is only an opinion.

    If you have a verse, which I don't think you do, where Jesus says the kingdom is exclusively spiritual then I will need to do some searching and possibly rethink my understanding. But I don't believe you have such a verse. Instead, I think you are reading things into the text because of preconceived ideas.

    The NT does not mention a physical kingdom. It only corrects the false notion of there being one.

    Revelation 20 references a physical Kingdom. Can you not give one quote of Jesus where he says his kingdom is exclusively spiritual? If not, then you should really rethink how dogmatic and rude you are on this issue.

    Revelation 20 speaks of our present reign with Christ. “and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” (Ephesians 2:6)

    It can't. Has Satan been bound? No.

    “Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

    Exactly, this has not yet happened.

    How bound, according to scripture, should Satan be?

    Bound and sealed in a pit so that he cannot deceive the nations for 1,000 years. When in history has this occured?

    Doesn't the gospel do this? Are their others besides the elect?

    No, the gospel does not do this, otherwise there would be no deceiving of people. Do you believe people are still deceived today? Are nations still deceived by the devil? has there ever been a time when they haven't? No, there hasn't been. This has not yet occured.

    The nations = the elect throughout the nations who cannot be deceived into atheism because of the gospel.

    Where do you get that from the text Dave? That sounds like Eisegesis to me.

    Again, if we first learn what Jesus and the NT writers say, Revelation will not go beyond that. All that the Father gave to Jesus will come to him from among the nations through the gospel that binds him in respect to them. But God sends lies and strong delusion to the rest. So the gospel binds Satan "from deceiving the nations" in a qualified sense. But God still keeps unbelievers (the reprobate) under his wrath.

    God sends lies? Did you just say God lies? And no, you are still reading into the text. Satan has not been bound. If that were true, why does Jesus tell us to pray to keep us from the evil one if he were going to be bound by the time Jesus' ministry was over? That makes no sense.

    “Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” (1 Kings 22:23)

    “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:11–12)

    Fair enough, but that still doesn't change the fact we have not seen Satan bound, and what about praying that we are delivered from the evil one (Satan)?

    You are expecting more than what scripture allows for.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    Hardly

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    Hardly

    Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    Hardly

    Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.

    You keep touting a lack of Scriptural support, yet I have repeatedly given such support. However, when I ask you for support you distract and deflect. So no, your position has not been bolstered at all.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    Hardly

    Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.

    You keep touting a lack of Scriptural support, yet I have repeatedly given such support. However, when I ask you for support you distract and deflect. So no, your position has not been bolstered at all.

    If you believe in a 7 year tribulation, prove it with direct scriptural support saying so. Or, do the same if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture. Or any direct quotes supporting a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks.....

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    Hardly

    Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.

    You keep touting a lack of Scriptural support, yet I have repeatedly given such support. However, when I ask you for support you distract and deflect. So no, your position has not been bolstered at all.

    If you believe in a 7 year tribulation, prove it with direct scriptural support saying so. Or, do the same if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture. Or any direct quotes supporting a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks.....

    Off topic and once again, when I pin you to a corner on a topic you immediately shift to something else. Distract and Deflect Dave. DDD

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @reformed said:
    It's official, continuing this thread is pointless. It's like talking to a brick.

    I think we are making progress in disproving physical kingdom theories, the more we share our views and how we react to each other's challenges.

    Hardly

    Your reaction and lack of scriptural support for your position only bolsters my position.

    You keep touting a lack of Scriptural support, yet I have repeatedly given such support. However, when I ask you for support you distract and deflect. So no, your position has not been bolstered at all.

    If you believe in a 7 year tribulation, prove it with direct scriptural support saying so. Or, do the same if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture. Or any direct quotes supporting a gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks.....

    Off topic and once again, when I pin you to a corner on a topic you immediately shift to something else. Distract and Deflect Dave. DDD

    You are the one without scriptural support for your claims. I need not shift anything. I'm trying to draw you out and make you prove what you say from scripture.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Posts: 1,368

    When Christians are snatched away and only liberals and doubters are left, what will happen then?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @GaoLu said:
    When Christians are snatched away and only liberals and doubters are left, what will happen then?

    It's the end of the world. And the beginning of the new heavens and earth where neither conservatives or liberals exist.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0

    It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • reformed
    reformed Posts: 3,176

    @Wolfgang said:
    It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.

    You mean like people who disgregard the fact that Jesus is God?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @Wolfgang said:
    It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.

    One cannot understand Revelation without defining the terms. and Jesus does this for us in most cases. So if you drag old Jewish ideas into Revelation, you will miss its meaning completely.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2018

    @reformed said:
    You mean like people who disgregard the fact that Jesus is God?

    in this case, not really ... on the other hand, the contents of the book rather plainly teaches - for example - that Jesus is the lamb of God. and therefore obviously not God Himself. Would you like to add "God, the Lamb" to a "Quadrupinity" Godhead of four rather than a "Trinity" Godhead of three ?

    If people would accurately read, believe and adhere to what they read in the opening verses in Rev 1 and the closing verses in Rev 2, they would recognize a fundamental truth that provides the key to a correct understanding of the contents of the book.
    Since they seemingly don't, the correct understanding of the contents of the book will remain unattainable to them.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.

    One cannot understand Revelation without defining the terms. and Jesus does this for us in most cases. So if you drag old Jewish ideas into Revelation, you will miss its meaning completely.

    As I mentioned previously, not adhering to proper context, overall scope, the use of literal versus figurative language, etc. produces an incorrect understanding.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @Wolfgang said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @Wolfgang said:
    It's quite amusing to read the various fantasies interpreted into the records in the Book of Revelation ... in reality, I find it rather sad to see the inability and/or unwillingness to actually read the text and adhere to what it says. But then, this is what happens when people ignorantly disregard the use of figures of speech, disregard context and overall scope not only of that book but remote context and overall scope of Scripture as well. The various posts also provide samples of how seemingly logical conclusions end up contradicting other truths in Scripture because, even though the logic is proper, the conclusions reached are false because the premise is already false.

    One cannot understand Revelation without defining the terms. and Jesus does this for us in most cases. So if you drag old Jewish ideas into Revelation, you will miss its meaning completely.

    As I mentioned previously, not adhering to proper context, overall scope, the use of literal versus figurative language, etc. produces an incorrect understanding.

    It's all up for grabs. Revelation is nothing more than a Rorschach Test for religious crackpots unless held in strict compliance with Jesus' teaching on the Kingdom and Paul's teaching on Israel.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Posts: 1,368

    Rorschach Test for religious crackpots

    I thought that was what CD was for...?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • C Mc
    C Mc Posts: 4,463

    Brethren,
    We will never get a correct understanding of any of the Kingdoms (e.g. Kingdom of God: "The Kingdom of Grace" or The Kingdom of Glory ) until we start reading these titles in context, language tenses, and in light of God's promises. Our understanding of the make-up of man at creation and the state of man at death. Lastly, one must put on the table of discussion, one's method of biblical interpretation: Pre, Post or Amillennial view and the determine Pre, or post- tribulation position. Without these things laid out, you are sure to, at least, go in circles and at best, tie yourself into knots.

    Firstly, this doesn't have to be, if we would come to the Bible as an inspired Book, where the writer wrote under Divine Inspiration, using the language of his past. This will require much prayer for illumination by the Holy Spirit.

    Secondly, if we come to the Bible or this topic with a teachable spirit. That is, the chance we may learn something new.

    Thirdly, as for understanding the millennium (1,000 years) of Revelation 20, we must accept that it is Christ's message (to the seven (7) churches of Asia Minor and subsequent believers) of things to shortly come to pass.

    • The Book of Revelation is a prophetic book-- uses dreams, visions, symbols, words, references, and allusions from the OT.
    • This book looks backward and forward, sometimes, in the same chapter. One must be attentive to verb tense, as alluded to in this thread earlier.
    • The book of Revelation can be understood! Its very name says so. It is the revelation of Jesus.
    • To say its message or out-take is tantamount to a Rorschach Test, in my view, a form of blasphemy. God didn't inspire John to write Revelation to be used as some kind of psychological test or to be used as spiritual "inkblots" to analyzed man. God made man and knows "personality characteristics and emotional functioning".

    This, demeaning of the Book of Revelation needs to Stop! What knowledge, power, authority or intellect of any man to belittle God's self-disclosure to humanity? To do so and continue such, is an insult to God, questions His intelligent, method and sovereignty. I hope this reminder would prove to be helpful and set a clearer path for us moving forward. Let's do better. CM

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0

    @C_M_ said:

    Firstly, this doesn't have to be, if we would come to the Bible as an inspired Book, where the writer wrote under Divine Inspiration, using the language of his past. This will require much prayer for illumination by the Holy Spirit.

    While prayer and God being at work in believers is important to note, a knowledge of language matters requires studying the language, as illumination of what words and expressions mean does not just "fall from heaven by the Holy Spirit".

    Secondly, if we come to the Bible or this topic with a teachable spirit. That is, the chance we may learn something new.

    Indeed ... unfortunately many are confined to previously learned theology against which they compare and judge what they read and or learn, only accepting what matches their theology.

    Thirdly, as for understanding the millennium (1,000 years) of Revelation 20, we must accept that it is Christ's message (to the seven (7) churches of Asia Minor and subsequent believers) of things to shortly come to pass.

    This point provides and excellent example of the application or non-application of the above two principles mentioned ... All read in several places the very clear and plain message that the things revealed in the book are a "message of things to shortly come to pass", and then claim boldly after almost 2000 years (2 millenniums) have already come and gone that the things in this message are still future because they have not come to pass according to what they imagine how it would come to pass (sometimes they claim their ideas to be "illumination by the Holy Spirit").

    Wouldn't it be better and in line with believing that what is stated in the book to claim that these things did in fact come to pass but perhaps one doesn't know how it came to pass and doesn't quite understand it ? Instead, people claim they know how it must come to pass, and since it hasn't come to pass how they thing it should come to pass, they insist on it being yet future ... when really they should simply admit that their ideas about how it should come to pass are wrong and what the text reveals is true and the events did come to pass shortly after the time these things were revealed?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In Register

Categories

In this Discussion

Who's Online 0