"The Father" and "The Son"
Comments
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Jesus reveals things to certain people...scriptures say not to worship anyone but God...scriptures are calling this man Jesus 'God's Son'...they worship Jesus... Think.
I do think ... and I do read what scriptures state ...
I actually agree with the scriptures who -- as you mention -- call "this man Jesus 'God's Son'" !! Why are you then calling him "God the Father" ???
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@Wolfgang , the scriptures say God had a human son. Think.
If you have a son it is a human, correct?
If God has a son then it is God, correct?
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@YourTruthGod wrote
If you have a son it is a human, correct?
that is correct ... when my wife gave birth to the child the child was/is a human!!
If God has a son then it is God, correct?
False ... when God caused the woman Mary to become miraculously pregnant, the child born of her 9 months later was a human. Women do NOT give birth to God
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Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
In my previous post, I asked for Scriptural support for your contention that "Jesus even filled John the baptizer and his mother Elizabeth with the Spirit when he was still in his mother's womb." The Matthew 3 verse that you cite a) doesn't say Jesus filled John and Elizabeth with the Spirit; b) speaks of one who will come "after" John the Baptist, one who "will" (future tense) "baptize [them] with the Holy Spirit and fire." To my reading, that means the baptism with the Holy Spirit of which John the Baptist speaks in the verse is an outcome he expected after his birth, not while "he was still in his mother's womb," as you claim. And there of course remains the very consequential reality that Luke's birth story gives no hint, suggestion, or direct report that Jesus "filled John the baptizer and his mother Elizabeth with the Spirit."
On these grounds, I ask again for scriptural support for your claim that "Jesus even filled John the baptizer and his mother Elizabeth with the Spirit when he was still in his mother's womb."
Jesus is worshiped
In two previous posts - THIS ONE and THIS ONE - I asked for the verse(s) upon which you base your claim that the infant Jesus "allowed" the wisemen to worship him as "king of the Jews." In my view, your three word response "Jesus is worshiped" does not fulfill the request I made, so I make it again: Where in the biblical record do you find support for your claim that the infant Jesus "allowed" the wisemen to worship him as the "king of the Jews"?
Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."
Matthew 2:8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”
Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."
These verses report that Jesus received worship. These verses do NOT report that Jesus received worship as "God." In fact, Matthew 2.2 reports the wisemen intended to worship him as the "King of the Jews." The context of Matthew 2.8 is that Herod is concerned, not that God has been born, but that a new "King of the Jews" has been born. (Matthew 2.1-3)
Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"
Here the disciples worship Jesus as "God's Son," not as God.
Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."
Here the disciples worship Jesus in resurrected form, but there is no indication of their worship of him as "God."
John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."
Here the man born blind worships Jesus as the "Son of Man," not as "God."
Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"
In its Hebrews context, this verse adds evidence to my claim of a clear distinction between God and Jesus:
- In Hebrews 1.5,7,10,13, God says things to or about Jesus. Logically, the one speaking cannot be the one being spoken to.
- In Hebrews 1.5, God says to Jesus "today I have become your Father," suggesting there was a time when God was NOT Jesus' "Father." A similar surmise is founded in the second part of v.5 in which God says of Jesus, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."
- In Hebrews 1.6, God asks "God's angels" to worship God's Son. God does not ask the angels to worship one who is God.
Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan.
Here what "worship" Jesus receives is an expression of gratitude. There is no sense that this is worship of one who is God.
Now read this:
Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"
This verse is critically important to the case I make that Jesus does not consider himself to be God. In it, Jesus says the Scriptures say one may only worship and serve the Lord their God. He says that because the devil has just offered him authority over "all the kingdoms of the world" if he will only "worship" him (the devil)
So the flow of this scene is 1) The devil offers Jesus authority over kingdoms if Jesus will worship the devil; 2) Jesus says you can only worship and serve God. In context, Jesus says to the devil, I can't worship you because the Scriptures say I can only worship my God. Translation: Jesus DOES worship and serve someone, but he worships and serves his God as commanded in the Scriptures. He will not worship and serve the devil. There is NO indication in this scene that Jesus sees himself as God, and EVERY indication that he sees himself as one who worships and serves his God.
Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."
No indication here, either, that Jesus is God. Worship God only? Yes, but is there more than one kind of "worship"? Say, worship as "the King of the Jews"?
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@Wolfgang that is correct ... when my wife gave birth to the child the child was/is a human!!
False ... when God caused the woman Mary to become miraculously pregnant, the child born of her 9 months later was a human. Women do NOT give birth to God
All humans are flesh and spirit.
We cannot make spirits.
God is the Father of our spirits.
Jesus' spirit is God's Spirit come as a man's.
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@YourTruthGod wrote
All humans are flesh and spirit.
False ... all humans are flesh and blood
Those who believe in God and in God's Messiah receive holy spirit as a gift and are sealed therewith
We cannot make spirits.
Who is talking about anyone MAKING SPIRITS? No such thing found in Scripture
God is the Father of our spirits.
Since you use the term "our spirits", would you please explain what you mean with "our spirit(s)"? I've heard such expression used numerously, but when asked to please explain what they meant, no one thus far seemed to actually know what they claimed to be talking about ...
Jesus' spirit is God's Spirit come as a man's.
Now, what is this supposed to mean ? what is "Jesus' spirit" ? what is "God's spirit"? what is "man's [spirit]"? Did one spirit (God's Spirit) disguise itself and show up AS a man's spirit?
Now, @YourTruthGod, I am not interested in a one liner claim of yours as reply ... I would appreciate if you take each of my questions and answer them ... just as I took each of your statements from your previous post above and answered / commented on them
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False ... all humans are flesh and blood
Humans are flesh and spirit.
Zechariah 12:1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:
Malachi 2:15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth.
Numbers 16:22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and said, "O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You vent Your wrath on the whole congregation?"
Numbers 27:16 "May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation
Those who believe in God and in God's Messiah receive holy spirit as a gift and are sealed therewith
I am speaking about something else that you deny.
Now, what is this supposed to mean ? what is "Jesus' spirit" ? what is "God's spirit"? what is "man's [spirit]"? Did one spirit (God's Spirit) disguise itself and show up AS a man's spirit?
You can think of a spirit as you would a ghost. Ghost is what it used to say.
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Words from an unknown Scholar:
The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead. When today we use the word "person" we refer to one who is not only distinct, but separate from others. This is not the meaning of the term when used in connection with the Trinity. Christians do not worship three Gods, but One who is manifest in the Father, Son, and Spirit. The members of the Trinity are distinct, but never separate—they are not three in the same sense that they are one. As seen and thought, God is three; as seeing and thinking He is one. While there are three divine organs of God-consciousness, there is but one center of divine self-consciousness. Every activity on the part of the Son or the Spirit is also the work of the Father.
This complexity should not surprise us. When we investigate the living organisms which surround us we find that the higher we go in the scale of life the more complex is the nature of that life, while the organism which is the simplest is also that which is lowest in the scale. The nature of God must inevitably surpass the nature of man infinitely.
The Father should be thought of as God OVER us, the Son as God FOR us in the Father's presence, but the Spirit as God IN us. He operates as it were as the very Finger of God reaching down to the creature and creating life both physical and spiritual. He conveys to us the blessings devised and procured through the Father and the Son. Says one writer: "The infinite Power that is everywhere present, the reality of which the energy and life of nature are the manifestations, is the Spirit of God. He is the substratum of the human spirit, the light of our intellectual seeing, the source of all that is pure and holy in us."
For practical purposes, that which we most need to know about, the Holy Spirit is found in John's Gospel, chapters 14-16, and in Romans chapter 8. Here we learn that He is to the believer what Christ was to the disciples when on earth. He is God with us, guiding, consoling, strengthening. He is mediated to us through our study of the Scriptures reverently, prayerfully, obediently. He comes to us as the sap in the vine (John 15) crowding off the dead leaves of the old life and creating the fruit of the new life. We receive the Holy Spirit as soon as we believe in Christ as our personal Saviour. (Acts 2:37-39; Romans 5:1-5; Acts 5:32.)
Truth found truth shared. CM
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Truth found truth shared. CM
well, what your unknown scholar wrote has not much to do with truth ... He re-defines language and then speaks confusingly in illogical and unreasonable ways with cogently "sweet talk" to misguide and deceive the readers.
He might be a good salesman, who would be able to sell you a toothbrush for a "pocket"-broom. 🤣
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