Churchianity teaches it to mean that "In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with Jesus, and Jesus WAS Jesus.

And we swallowed that as churchoids (people who believe Church rather than the Bible).

Lets take a MUCH closer look at John 1:1, and what Jesus' words have to say about it IN ORDER from the book of John!

Concerning Christianity, I propose that its adherents covertly believe that “Jesus” resides on Earth and that, upon His death, all existence shall cease and recommence with Him as a young boy. I conjecture that most inhabitants of Earth harbor this notion—that God incarnate dwells among us—yet refrain from acknowledging it. The Christian conviction that He shall resurrect the dead and usher in a new Heaven and Earth speaks unequivocally, in my estimation. I ponder why contemporary society has not exalted an obscure living man to the status of God incarnate, a practice seemingly prevalent in antiquity. In the present day, a man exhibiting a messianic disposition is deemed mentally unsound; yet, for reasons that remain obscure, Christians do not apply this judgment to Jesus. I surmise that Christianity’s magnitude renders it impervious to scrutiny, and individuals recoil from the prospect of being perceived as irrational for asserting that “Jesus” walks the Earth. Thus, there lies a collective refuge in attributing such divinity to the figure delineated in the sacred text provided by God.

I perceive an irony in 2 Peter 1:16 as it pertains to our era, which declares: “For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.” Likewise, I find Matthew 16:28 both ironic and pertinent, which states: “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

You can learn more about my spiritual views on my website. https://godincarnate.me/

But our ancient primitive ancestors, kids of humanity, had no clue, at all, about it. It was out of question for them that it is possible for two living beings, on earth, to be unified and be one single living being only.

And if it happens that a today’s human has also no clue about it, it means he never heard that his own existence started from two tiny living cells: one from his genetic father and one from his genetic mother. When they reached each other, they combined to form his starting living cell which evolved for 9 months to become the human born baby he was.

Although educated humans now, the adults of humanity, know this truth in the material realm, many of them still find hard to also imagine it in the spiritual realm; that is two separate spirits can be unified by the Spirit of Love and have One Will only.

In other words, while humans now can believe in the earthly unifying process (by the chemical love), most of them cannot believe, even if they want to, in the existence of the Heavenly Unifying Spirit, the Holy Spirit, which is the core of Jesus’ message {Matthew 12:31-32}. The reason is simple. The former love is preprogrammed in their instincts already. The later one is not obvious, even to those who are given a living soul, besides their living flesh. True Love is strictly a personal matter based on a real free-will; it cannot be preprogrammed or commanded (imposed as a rule).

Anyway, by design, only the spirit of the unconditional unlimited love towards all others (good and evil) in one’s soul is eternal (how? this is another topic), anything else will return back to its raw state (the state of non-existence before birth).

This fact also applies on a ‘god’ who is supposed to be a Ruling King, said Supernatural. His will is limited by his own rules which are supposed to represent the Absolute Truth. For example, he has to reward his obedient believers and punish those who refuse to obey his rules of the Absolute Truth.

In such a supernatural kingdom, the word ‘love’, addressed to humans, has one meaning: “Obey the Lord, your King”. And both this Supernatural Ruling King and his created humans should observe their kingdom’s rules which are claimed to represent their Absolute Truth.

How could I fool myself and imagine that my Creator is simply a limited ruling king who is bounded by his own rules?!

But I also don’t hesitate to congratulate a human who chose to be very proud for being a good obedient ‘slave’ (the modern word is ‘servant’) of the most powerful ruling king whom a man can imagine.

Meanwhile, the Loving Will/Power that created me, and I... know that there is no will above the Divine Spirit of Love. Nothing limits the Loving Will of my Heavenly Father, which is the same Loving Will of Jesus, thanks to the Ultimate Unifying Spirit of Love, the Holy Spirit. In the Kingdom of Love there are no masters or slaves bounded by rules. There are free spirits only unified by their Absolute Truth, ‘LOVE’ (which is not any of the various limited kinds of love that are preprogrammed in human’s instincts).

But perhaps, someday I will hear of a real ruling king who is free not to apply always his own rules which define the boundaries of his limited authority.

Best wishes to all,

Kerim

Since the messianic prophecies are not fulfilled, I believe that the messiah hasn't come yet.

Therefore I don't believe in the NT, but only in the Hebrew Bible.

Former Third Generation Jehovah's Witnesses

Of all items listed, on only three have the Watchtower switched their mind. (#59, 60,61)

All are listed, however, to show the absurdity of Watchtower rules and the absolute control leadership

has over the lives of members once they join.

1. God is not a Trinity; the doctrine is inspired by the Devil

2. Jesus Christ is a "created being," who at one time did not exist

3. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to-he is only an angel (a.k.a. Michael the archangel)

4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc.

5. Heaven is hope only for select Jehovah's Witnesses. The majority of JWs hope to live on "paradise earth"

6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses. There are only 9,105 alive today (2006 figures)

7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only "true Christians." All churches and denominations are considered "false religion"

8. There is no Hell or eternal judgment ("Hell" is simply the grave)

9. There is no life after death except for the 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses

10. Salvation is earned only by being a loyal Jehovah's Witness

11. Jesus second coming happened invisibly and secretly in 1914

12. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918

13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a spirit being

14. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man)

15. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission

16. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism

17. God is not omnipresent

18. God is not omniscient

19. JWs are not sure of their salvation

20. All earthly governments are controlled by the Devil

21. The Holy Spirit is only available to select Jehovah's Witnesses

22. They are forbidden to serve in the military

23. They are forbidden to buy Girl Scout cookies

30. They are forbidden to celebrate any holidays (Christmas, Easter, etc.)

31. They are forbidden to celebrate their birthday

32. They are forbidden to run for or hold a political office

33. They are forbidden to vote in any political campaign

34. They are forbidden to serve on a jury

35. They are forbidden to own or wear a cross

36. They are forbidden to speak to former members who are shunned (disfellowshipped)

37. They are forbidden to accept Christmas gifts

38. They are forbidden to purchase Christian products (books, music, plaques, pictures etc.)

39. They are forbidden to read Christian literature

40. They are forbidden to have friends who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

41. They are forbidden to marry a non-Jehovah's Witness

42. They are forbidden to salute the flag, stand for the national anthem, or own a flag

43. They are forbidden to say "God bless you" when someone sneezes.

44. They are forbidden to have a tattoo

45. They are forbidden to use pet foods made with blood or blood products

46. They are forbidden to donate blood or their organs

47. They are forbidden to read any anti-Jehovah's Witness material

48. They are forbidden to interpret the Bible without Watchtower literature to explain it

49. They are forbidden to wear any Christian jewelry

50. They are forbidden to support their country and be patriotic

51. They are forbidden to be involved in martial arts, boxing or wrestling

52. They are forbidden to join any clubs or sports teams

53. They are forbidden to participate in a school play

54. They are forbidden to use any tobacco products

55. They are forbidden to attend the funeral of an ex-Jehovah's Witness

56. They are forbidden to say "good luck"

57. They are forbidden to be a police officer

58. Women are forbidden pray in the presence of men without a hat or head covering

59. They are forbidden to play chess

60. They are forbidden to wear jade jewelry

61. They must not own wind-chimes (they are for chasing away evil spirits)

62. They must read and study Watchtower literature regularly

63. They must go from door to door weekly to gain converts

64. They must attend five meetings per week

65. Only officially approved sexual practices are allowed in marriage

66. Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Halls have no windows

67. If they witness another Jehovah's Witness breaking the rules they must report them to the elders to be interrogated

68. They are forbidden to take a blood transfusion

69. Men are forbidden wear beards

70. The Watchtower organization is God's prophet on earth today

71. Women must submit to the authority of Watchtower elders

72. They must forgo vacations to attend annual conventions

73. They must study Watchtower books at least six months before they can be baptized

74. Before baptism, one must answer over 80 Bible questions with Scripture references in front of a panel of elders

75. Most of The Book of Revelation applies to the Jehovah's Witnesses

76. They cannot celebrate Mothers or Fathers day (it may produce pride)

77. Kingdom Halls cannot have pews for seating

78. They must appear before a Judicial Committee if they are caught breaking Watchtower rules (Secret files are kept on all members which record these meetings-these files are kept in New York and are never destroyed)

79. All pastors are the "Antichrist"

80. All churches are of Satan

81. God only speaks through the "Governing Body" in Brooklyn, New York

82. They are discouraged from attending college

83. The Lord's supper is only to be eaten by select Jehovah's Witnesses (144,000 group-99.99% of Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from taking the Lord's supper)

84. The Lord's supper can only be celebrated annually

85. JWs in times of crisis, are strongly discouraged from consulting with family counselors, including mental health professionals who are not Jehovah's Witnesses

86. Only faithful Jehovah's Witnesses will survive Armageddon

87. If they have a non-Witness spouse their first loyalty is to the elders over their spouse

88. Angels direct the Watchtower organization

89. Judgment day is 1000 years long

90. If you leave Jehovah's Witnesses or are expelled from the organization you will not be resurrected

91. Only Jehovah's Witness prayers are heard by God

92. Man's salvation is secondary in God's plan; Jesus was sent to "vindicate Jehovah's name"

93. God will destroy all non-Jehovah's Witnesses at Armageddon

94. They are strongly discouraged from giving to charity (except Watchtower causes)

95. They must never enter a church building

96. They must never attend a church service

97. They are discouraged from buying a two door car-A "Theocratic" or "spiritually strong" Jehovah's Witness will have a full size car for the door to door work

98. Men must wear short hair

99. They must refer to all Jehovah's Witnesses as "brother" or "sister"

100. They can never question what is printed in Watchtower literature

10l. They must report their witnessing activity to the elders

What they're called...

-JW services are called "meetings"

-JW hymnals are called "song books" (all songs have to be composed by JWs)

-The JW religion is referred to by the Witnesses as "The Truth"

-The JWs call themselves "The only true Christians"

-The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society Inc. of Brooklyn, New York is called "God's Organization"

-In conversation JWs call Watchtower headquarters "The Society"

-All other religions (pagan, Christian, or any world religion) are called "Babylon the Great"

-All Christian pastors and ministers are called the "Antichrist"

-Changes in doctrine is called "New Light"

-The five meetings JWs must attend are called:

1. Public Talk

2. Watchtower Study

3. Area Book Study

4. Theocratic School

5. Service Meeting

-A non-Witness is called "a worldly person"

-A person who rejects the JW message is called a "goat"

-A person who is studying to become a JW is called "a study"

-God's judgment on all non JWs is called "Armageddon"

-The JW Bible is called "New World Translation

-The door to door work is called "the Service"

-Those who bring "new light" or new revelations to the JWs are called "The faithful and discreet slave"

-JWs who have an earthly hope are called "Other Sheep"

-Old term for JWs with the earthly hope were called "Jonadab"

-JWs who have a heavenly hope are called "Anointed Remnant"

-A JW who is enthusiastic is called "theocratic"

-Every JW is called a "Publisher"

-Part time door to door workers are called "Auxiliary Pioneers"

-Full time door to door workers are called "Regular Pioneers"

-Full time door to door workers who have stricter quotas than Regular Pioneers, are called "Special Pioneers"

-Appointed Local leaders are called "Elders"

-Appointed Local helpers/workers are called "Ministerial Servants"

-The group responsible for discipline are called "The Judicial Committee"

-A traveling Watchtower representative is called a "Circuit Overseer"

-The Circuit Overseer's boss is called "District Overseer"

-The District Overseer's boss is called "Zone Overseer"

-The Zone Overseer's boss is called "Branch Overseer"

-The Brooklyn, New York Headquarters is called "Bethel"

-Headquarters workers are called "Bethelites"

-A person who is a weak Witness is called "unspiritual" or "Un-theocratic"

-A JW who is publicly disciplined by the elders is called "publicly reproved"

-A JW who is privately disciplined by the elders is called "privately reproved"

-A JW who rejects Watchtower teachings and leaves or is expelled is called "an apostate"

-A JW who breaks any of the Watchtower rules and does not repent to the elders is "disfellowshipped" (Shunned)

-A disfellowshipped person who wants to return to the organization, repents to the elders and is called "reinstated"

-Jehovah's Witness meeting places are called "Kingdom Halls"

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20190728200438/http://watchthetower.net/

I had a failed attempt to update the forum software yesterday. The entire site had to be restored from backup. I hope that no recent posts and comments went missing. Everything should be back to normal. If you notice any differences or changes, please let me know in this thread.

Happy belated new year!!

Jan

Those who left, this site, did so on their own free will. In doing so, they expressed their contempt for your enormous sacrifice and vision, all under the guise of users who wouldn't conform to their expectation of the ideal user. They were not removed by any administrative actions or pressure. However, steps you have taken to prevent them from spreading falsehoods, that those who remain are the damn or should be damned, are understandable.

You're on to something good. It has the potential of doing much good for the Christian Community and the world over. You’re at the foundational level. It’s a work that can’t be skipped, rushed, or short-cuts can be taken. A building is no better than the foundation that it sits on. The taller the building, the deeper and the wider the foundation must be. It takes skills, knowledge, and quality materials (persons).

Please, be reminded, that “the only time a person starts at the top is when one is digging a hole”. What you’re building takes time, patience, and people with a degree of insight beyond their own self-importance. There are many (unfortunately "so-called" Christians) hoping you would abandon your dream (current project). May I admonish you, never put your dream into the head or hands of another person. The sad truth is, one may not implement with your best interest in mind.

Your desire to provide a place (site) for Christians (character) to debate (skill/knowledge) on biblical matters; a cross-section of other topics and current events that confront the Christian, in daily living, is noteworthy. With the approximately 7 billion people, on planet earth, I am sure those who left, can be replaced and then, some. The quality of contributions always takes precedence over the number of users on a site. In my humble opinion, the "New CD" is far superior too many of the other Christian discussion/Chat/Debate sites that are currently in operation. There is no site like this one. It provides a wide range of opportunities to the committed users:

1. General
2. Bible Questions
3. News & Current Events
4. Devotional Thoughts
5. Apologetics
6. Ministry Methods
7. Pop Culture
8. Biblical Studies
9. Prayer Requests

There is something for everyone from the "Seekers; the new Christians, at the beginning of his journey with Christ; scholars, retirees, students or the skilled debaters. It's a smorgasbord of options and choices for one who willing to share, interact with others with similar views or with those who hold completely opposite positions. You will be challenged to study anew, rethink your positions, and amend some, or completely abandon others. You will receive and are at liberty to give resources are given for thoughts given or for further studies. It's a reciprocal opportunity for all to learn!

Is it a perfect site? No. Does CD have some concerns? Yes. Are you opened to change? Yes. Does CD know it all? No. I will share with you how to address some concerns listed above in a Personal Message (PM) entitled: "What 'Aileth' CD". These are my suggestions for you to consider to relate to former users and help current and new users to fulfill CD's objectives. You are at liberty to share the complete remarks or select portions with the users of the new CD. It's your call to make. I hope you find them useful for immediate implementation for effective improvement for site destined to become the online discussion site second to none.

Be of good courage. Hold fast to that which is good. CM

hello and greeting all thank you for inviting me to your form, very interesting subject please I am not religious, but I have an open mind love is all I know

sorry I have some questions, about scriptures and doctrines

CD is becoming a potential junior satellite of the JWs Organization. A name change may be necessary.  @BroRando  is the only poster in CD who directs traffic to his website. He promotes his WT doctrines in CD as an extension of his Church. CD is supposed to be a place of discussion, not a dumping ground for one poster's hardened religious beliefs. All because there is no rule to protect one from "denominational" wholesale website dumping.

Unfortunately, Chairman Jan hasn't addressed the matter. I don't know Jan to be a JW or endorse its teachings, but this apparent free pass is alarming and, to others, sickening. JWs' unloading is equivalent to religious urine, spread over the forums, marking CD as a spot for future territory takeover and ownership, like animals in the wild. Its doctrinal (@BroRando,  shamefully denies such existence) saturation waters down the varied voices these forums demand openness.

@Bill_Coley appears to defend speak against hard-core religious dumping on CD with a passion. I have no problem with cutting pasting third-party information or voices. I have long encouraged it. Elsewhere, @Bill_Coley, in a straw-man faction of distraction, purport that I was against this practice and hypocritical because others did so. When one has the good sense to select from a third-party source, so be it. I do know all of it will not come from one source (@BroRando's JWs Website). One religious group unloading is a bit too much for me and some other posters. I mentioned this because it, too, can be a reason others consider leaving the current CD.

 @Bill_Coley, JWs, and  @BroRando seem to share a (not so secret) marriage. They share the same core religious "Jesus is not God" doctrinal love. This remaining three-some ( @Wolfgang  is on the verge of leaving) shares the Unitarian doctrinal bed. The sad truth is, I don't think @BroRando  knows what's at the base of his religious beliefs. If he knows, he is not a good "witness" about it. The foundation of NWT bears this religious stance. Why  @Bill_Coley fail to acknowledge, at least openly, that birds of feathers (opposing Christ's divinity) flock together? Bill's latest charade of minor disagreements with  @BroRando  is woefully shameful and anemic at best. The tacit slap on the hands, a blind man can see it.

Those who are not bamboozled by @Bill_Coley's self-declared, moralist, "wanna-to-be" CD mediator, temperamental responder to posters. Some of what JWs and  @BroRando  are promoting is embarrassing and indefensible (e.g., 1914, etc.). Even if  @BroRando doesn't know,  @Bill_Coley  should have known that to mix a religious group of faulty translators who inserts words, not in the original texts (Greek/Hebrew), the final product will inevitable faulty Bible at best. Bill, you should know better, even if it has "Jesus is not God" comfort text in it. When one lies in bed with faulty doctrines, one wakes up in the morning with heresy. Am I being critical of posters, this site, or sounding the alarm for change? This and other things on where do we go from here? Next time! CM

It turns out, many say their “pre-trib rapture” platform came from the hallucinations of young Pentecostal Margaret MacDonald, a Scottish lass who in the 1800s was burning up with a fever. Since scripture never mentions it, I can accept this as true. Eventually, picked up by J. Darby and Later C.I. Scofield. He wrote of it alongside scripture in his Scofield Reference Bible of the early 1900s. It became the hot topic in nearly every pulpit preached today.

This combined with other new doctrines became Dispensationalism. A new prophetic framework through which people could relate the bible to current news events. Prophecy buffs worldwide spend many hours gleaning the headlines in search of the Antichrist who already has them twirling on his string.

In fact, this sort of futurism is the result of a plan designed by the Jesuits to offset the Reformers who identified the papacy as the Antichrist. The Jesuits inserted a gap of unlimited time between Daniel’s 69th and 70th weeks (Daniel 9:24ff). Saying the 70th week is on hold until Antichrist arrives.

But in this, they turned Jesus who already fulfilled the 70 weeks, into an Antichrist of the distant future. Now more than 2000 years have elapsed. The Jesuits thought by doing this, people would think the Antichrist cannot be the Pope.

It worked having affected a broad swath of Christendom. Placing them into a futuristic mode of reading the bible while missing the present and past fulfillments in prophecy. But the gap, no matter how far into the future, needed a few things.

The original backdrop of the first century had the Roman Empire as the time of the seventy weeks. With Jesus now turned into Antichrist, a restored Roman Empire would need to become the time of the seventieth week. The time in which Antichrist would come. So they prophesied a restored Roman Empire scripture knows nothing of. They also prophesied a rebuilt temple for Antichrist to desecrate. Something that would damn anyone for returning to animal sacrifice after Christ put away sin (Heb. 6ff). They also ignore the great tribulation, fulfilled in 70AD, confusing it with the ongoing tribulation of the Church.  All that happened then would need to happen again since the 70 weeks in Daniel require it.

But this forms much of their prophecy today. Already fulfilled prophecy is now said to have “double fulfillment”. So they predict a restored Roman Empire. A new Temple with animal sacrifices for Antichrist to end. And so on. Not realizing they missed the kingdom the same way the Pharisees did. The kingdom is spiritual and not the physical kingdom they expect. It came in the first century when Daniel said it would. But it is spiritual, only seen by the born-again. But they and the blind Premillennialists still look for the Physical millennial kingdom of the Pharisee’s making.

Jesus destroyed this notion time and again when he preached the gospel of the kingdom in the gospels.

And so here we are. The bible scavenger hunt began in the 1800s. Looking for scripture to support this “new way” of reading the bible. A system not based on the bible, but based instead on chopping scripture from its context and combining it to match current headlines. Hal Lindsey says: "The prophecies can be pieced together to make a coherent picture, even though the pieces are scattered in small bits throughout the Old and New Testaments. Hal Lindsey,"The Late Great Planet Earth" 1970 (Chapter 4)

This includes an imaginary Gap in the 70 weeks the bible never mentions. Again, by chainsawing as it were, one text after another from its original context. And trying to recreate it in the headlines with modern technology. They rewrite the Bible making it say whatever they want.

An example is Ezekiel 38 -39 where spears become submarines. Horses become jet planes. And Ezekiel’s stated attempt, to steal Israel’s cattle, becomes any reason battles happen today. 

And ancient Gog and Magog become today’s Russia. No mention of this in scripture. Yet many believe this current wave of false prophecy. Not knowing it comes from the Jesuits of the Counter-Reformation to deceive Protestants from thinking the Papacy is the Antichrist.

Clarence Larkin, a famous Dispensationalists writes: “In its present form it [Dispensationalism] may be said to have originated at the end of the Sixteenth Century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who, actuated by the same motive as the Jesuit Alcazar, sought to rid the Papacy of the stigma of being called the “Antichrist,” and so referred the prophecies of the Apocalypse to the distant future. This view was accepted [not believed] by the Roman Catholic Church and was for a long time confined to it, but, strange to say, it has wonderfully revived since the beginning of the Nineteenth Century, and that among Protestants.” Dispensational Truth; pg. 5 Clarence Larkin

Nearly all Protestant creeds have the Papacy as Antichrist boldly stated. Also early Baptists and Methodists. So this was the stigma the Jesuits tried to rid the Roman Catholic Church of with futurism, now called Dispensationalism.

Paul said, describing the Antichrist: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3–4.

The Temple of God is the Christian believer according to the New Testament 1 Corinthians 3:16. So the man of sin, Antichrist, would occupy Christendom, sitting in the hearts and minds of the Church. Back in the days leading up to, and during the Reformation. The Papacy used force. He would burn at the stake all who would not submit. Thousands perished, not only by the Catholics but by the Reformers who never overcame the Papacy’s hold on them.

After the day passed, Antichrist remained seated in the Temple of God through His false doctrines that Christians of all walks still cling to. Can you spot his doctrines in your church?

Dispensationalism:

Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists. By Dave_L

Anyone looking for direct scripture support of the famed Pre-Trib Rapture will come up empty handed. Admits Rapture heavyweight John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148). Saying;

"Ladd, in contrast to Jones, concedes that post-tribulalional rapture is an inference rather than an explicit revelation of Scripture in the following statement:

"Nor does the Word explicitly place the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation."

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.”

“Pretribulationism is based on the fact that it allows a harmony of the Scriptures relating to the Second Advent.”

“The separation of the translation from the return of Christ to earth permits each of the two events so different in character, to have its own place.”

“It solves the problem of the confusing and contradictory details in the post-tribulational interpretation illustrated in the difficulty of the postribulationist's themselves to work out a harmony of prophecies related to the second advent."

Another Rapture heavy-weight, Tim LaHaye says:

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either."

Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm: Why Christians Will Escape All the Tribulation (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1992), 69. This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). See “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

So despite the fact millions of books claiming the rapture flew off the shelves despite the failed prophecies surrounding them, millions of Christians believe as scripture truth the claims that have no scripture supporting them.

Did Believing a Lie Kill Thousands of Anabaptists?

The Catholics and Protestants killed thousands of Anabaptists during the Reformation. The Catholics burned them at the stake. The Protestants beheaded or drowned them. But did the Anabaptists die because of a lie.

The lie came from the Bishop of Rome in the second century according to Irenaeus in his work Against Heresies. Called infant baptism, but it was not baptism according to the scriptures. The Anabaptists refused this ritual bringing about their deaths in the thousands. According to Paul, it became a sin for them not to die because whatever is not of faith is sin, even if nothing more than superstition Romans 14:23. And their unenlightened consciences demanded that they pay with their lives. Had they known the truth, the baptism of infants was not baptism at all. And they could have easily complied with the senseless ritual knowing this.

Even today, what the Catholics and Protestants call baptism is an empty ritual not found in the Bible.

Back in the Reformation, infant baptism was more of a way for Protestant and Catholic states to take a survey of children born in those jurisdictions. Had the Anabaptists known the truth, they could have conscientiously let the false Churches sprinkle their children knowing it was not baptism at all. It was similar to Evangelicals having baby dedication services, but instead, the Church kills you if you don’t.

One single lie turned Catholics and Protestants into the mass murderers of thousands and the deceived Anabaptists into their victims. Victims and murderers alike wallowed in the same blindness. The Anabaptists thought that adults and not infants should be the proper subjects of the senseless ritual. Those who complied, unknowingly remained unbaptized thinking they were.

If Honest Charlie tells you the used car is good, even though it is not, the Protestants and Catholics did the same telling the world that infant baptism is genuine even though it is not.

The only clear passage of scripture defining baptism in the scriptures is where Jesus told the apostles to baptize believers in the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19. This is why the apostles baptized believers in the name of Jesus Christ.

“(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)” Acts 8:16 (KJV 1900)

“And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” Acts 10:48 (KJV 1900)

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 19:5 (KJV 1900)

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900)

 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” Romans 6:3 (KJV 1900)

The Papacy undermined Christ and the apostles’ authority by changing their baptism into His own sterilized version. The already false baptism of infants and converts is even more untrue in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The names of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not God’s name. Those names are the positional relationship between the three persons. It’s like calling someone’s father, Doug’s dad, instead of calling him by his name, Mike.

Jesus Christ is the name of the triune YHWH in the Greek Septuagint. The Bible Jesus and the apostles used. Depending on the context, Lord meant YHWH. So when they heard that Jesus is the Lord, they knew He is YHWH incarnate.

In the second century, the papacy replaced Christ and the apostles with himself. Just as Paul foretold. Antichrist became the pope’s self-proclaimed title, Vicar of Christ, which means in place of Christ, or Antichrist, 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Baptism page 263 Catholic Encyclopedia:

“…of this sacrament, the act of baptism must be expressed, and the matter and form be united to leave no doubt of the meaning of the ceremony. In addition to the necessary word “baptize”, or its equivalent, it is also obligatory to mention the separate persons of the Holy Trinity.”

Almost every Church in the world is under the spell of the Antichrist today, using the Pope’s preferred replacement baptism instead of the only clearly taught method found in scripture. Baptism of converts in the name of Jesus Christ, the New Testament name of the Triune YHWH. Not knowing this costs thousands of Anabaptists their lives. And reduced the pillars of the Reformation into mass murderers. Along with the Catholics.

Baptism in Jesus’ name, Trinitarian style.

The Command: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” Matthew 28:19.

The Interpretation: “For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 8:16.

“And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” Acts 10:48.

“When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.” Acts 19:5.

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38.

 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?” Romans 6:3.

Awake! 1953 Oct 8 p.6

"South Africa's whole color policy is conditioned by this fact and this fear: 80 per cent of her population is black; if the color bar is breached, what new dike can stop a black flood from overflowing and destroying the civilisation with which white man have displaced the wilderness?"

This is your go-to place for respectful online theological discussion. Feel free to pose Bible questions, spark theological discourse, and connect with people all over the world who are passionate about the Word.

Christian Debate is a hub for biblical learning, growth, and community. Please keep your questions and comments respectful and polite. Treat others in this forum like you would treat your neighbor at church—don’t be afraid to voice your opinion, but do it with love and kindness.

This Is a Civilized Place for Public Discussion

Please treat others with the same love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were having a conversation in a church. Use these guidelines to keep this a clean, well-lighted place for civilized public discussion.

Improve the Discussion

Leave every thread better than you found it. With each new post, work to improve the quality of the discussion.

We care deeply about the topics discussed here. Be respectful about them and the people discussing them, even if you disagree.

Browse for a few minutes before you post a new thread to help us keep things tidy. You may find that someone has already started a thread about the same subject to which you can contribute. Use this forum’s tools to limit clutter. Rather than signing your posts, fill out your signature information and post an avatar.

Be Agreeable, Even When You Disagree

You may wish to voice a contradictory opinion. That’s fine, but remember to criticize ideas, not people. Please avoid:

• Name-calling
• Ad hominem attacks
• Reacting to a post’s tone rather than responding to its content

If You See a Problem, Flag It

It’s everyone’s job to make this forum a healthy, happy place for discourse. When you see bad behavior, don’t reply. A reply consumes energy and draws more attention to the offending post. Just flag it. When enough flags accrue, action will be taken, either automatically or by a moderator.

I recall reading near the end of the old .com site (using Wayback) that something similar seemed to happen to take it down. Oddly, then, a person gone "quiet" seemed to be suspect.

I am not a computer person, but I do have a brain. I have no idea what it means, but I am prone to detecting details.

I was fishing with a dragnet in a pond of black water. Another fisherman stood in the mist across the way. There were good fish and sinister creatures in the black pond water. Little by little, the good fish went away. Remaining in the pond were creatures dark and sinister. The fisherman across the way disappeared in the mist. A voice spoke to me and said that I was no longer to fish in this pond. Nothing remained to catch in my net. I hauled in my dragnet and folded it. That's all.

" I grab you by the tail and horn and body slammed you. Forced you to cough. I'll keep doing to, your friend left you. "

I am not offended. I make no appeal regarding this; I desire no defense. I offer no resistance to him writing such things. I am personally thankful he continues to be present.

Here is my thought:

What other way might such a thing be said to have the best possible outcome?

1. Abortion
2. LGBT

To start things off,

1) Abortion is murder

2) LGBT's acting out have a sin issue which can be redeemed.

Who here uses Logos?

What exactly makes it special?

How do you recommend using it?

Is it a little expensive?

The Bible tells us, "Jehovah is close to the brokenhearted; He saves those who are crushed in spirit." (Pslams 34:18)

Also, we have a helper in His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ whom states, "Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you." (Mat 11:28)

Articles that may interest you:

• Why Go On?
• Survive Depression
• Is Life Worth Living?
• How to Deal With Stress
• A Campaign That Saved Lives

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 1 (800) 273-8255

The GB (Governing Body_: the elders' manual, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock.

The majority of Witnesses are unaware, however, that Witness elders are given an additional serving of "spiritual food" by the Governing Body: the elders' manual, Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock. Jehovah's Witnesses with access to the Internet are now being asked the following questions: Why has the Society written a book so secret that the majority of dedicated Witnesses are unaware of its existence? What makes this book so dangerous to the "faithful and discreet slave?"

Restrictive circulation of some literature is a long-standing Watchtower policy. For example, individuals must prepare for baptism as Jehovah's Witnesses before they are given the regulatory manual, Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry. Witnesses lead prospective members through a carefully orchestrated survey of current Watchtower teachings. The proselytes are shielded from the complete list of ordinances and organizational stipulations until they have dedicated their lives to service for the Society.

The Governing Body engaged in even greater information control by limiting circulation of Pay Attention... only to Society leaders. This effectively cast a veil of secrecy over the manual so dense that only the allegedly illegal action of Internet publication allowed public access to this secret document.

Source: https://www.watchman.org/articles/jehovahs-witnesses/paying-attention-to-the-watchtowers-secret-manual-for-elders/

Here are some things JW kids grow up with:

1. Never enjoy a birthday, holiday, Christmas
2. Can never speak honestly with a friend out of fear of "report what is bad" (being snitched on by friends
3. Door to door preaching every Saturday and sometimes Sunday
4. Always judged by the elders
5. Not allowed to date (can sort of have chaperoned time)
6. Non-JW friends not allowed
7. Trying to make sense of ever-changing made-up doctrines
8. Never say "God bless you" when someone sneezes (it might have some obscure pagan origin)
9. Grow up with no privacy. Learning "secrets" about others is a "gift from God."

Every group uses certain peculiar words, idioms, turns of phrase by which its adherent's identify. Authoritarian and abusive cults diverge much further. How many of these phrases do you know? What can you add?

• Householder
• Witness girls
• "He went to Bethel"
• A topic you had a part on
• A new release is announced
• The convention is over
• Back to the real world
• First week of paradise
• Out in service
• Pioneers out in service
• A new release announced
• GB's - (governing body)
• Bible meeting
• Get called on
• Interviews at assembly
• Favorite part of assembly
• Going to do rural territory
• Going to
• Annual Meeting
• Pioneers and Elders
• Study the Watchtower for the CO visit
• CO's (Circuit Overseers) - allegedly there to "encourage cult members, but also instill fear and Watchtower compliance in them
• Figure out the territory card
• "Thirty seconds or less"
• Called on to give a prayer
• A "do not call"
• Work on dress and grooming
• A Bible teach book
• During a campaign
• You don't have to answer all the questions
• Learn about God's good news
• The first talk
• Early service treat
• As long as its gray
• Raise my hand to read
• Placing a memorial invitation
• Study my Watchtower
• Commenting at meeting (30 seconds or less)
• Answer the wrong question
• Touch the glass of wine
• "Black jokes" (usually mocking black speaking mannerisms)
• Convention money
• At the RBC
• Bus witnessing
• Prove you wrong with your own Bible
• Read you KM's - (Kingdome Ministry propaganda)
• When the drama starts
• Send them letters
• Catch a pioneer sister
• Chaperoned dating
• Fill out service reports
• Monthly reports
• Performance records
• To get "encouraged." (terrorized)
• New Light" from God (enables everchanging policies--especially when prophecies fail)
• Report what is bad

Merry Christmas!