How do you justify violence as a Christian?

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    You cannot follow Jesus and blow away enemies you are supposed to love.

    Loving your enemies does not mean you let them kill you for any reason. That's absurd and nowhere found in the Bible.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Loving your enemies does not mean you let them kill you for any reason. That's absurd and nowhere found in the Bible.

    The disciples ran and hid. But did not resist violence with violence when cornered.

  • Posts: 4,463

    @Dave_L said:

    The disciples ran and hid. But did not resist violence with violence when cornered.

    Brethren,
    There needs to be a re-reading of the Sermon on the Mount, in general; and the Beatitudes, in particular. Follow the life and teachings of Jesus. We are to trust God in all things, at all times. CM

  • Posts: 2,362
    edited April 2018

    @C_M_ said:

    Brethren,
    There needs to be a re-reading of the Sermon on the Mount, in general; and the Beatitudes, in particular. Follow the life and teachings of Jesus. We are to trust God in all things, at all times. CM

    Can you provide scriptural evidence where the disciples did not follow the Sermon? I can show many examples where they did. And not one mention of violence on their part. The only exception was Peter trying to defend Jesus with the sword, in which case Jesus rebuked him, and told us all to put away the sword along with Peter.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    The disciples ran and hid. But did not resist violence with violence when cornered.

    When being persecuted for their FAITH. Different scenario Dave.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    When being persecuted for their FAITH. Different scenario Dave.

    Paul fell among robbers and other situations where persecution was not the issue. Yet he taught us to leave vengeance in God's hands and not our own.

    Besides, are we to interview attackers to find out if it is a faith issue or not? Or just turn the other cheek as Jesus said?

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Paul fell among robbers and other situations where persecution was not the issue. Yet he taught us to leave vengeance in God's hands and not our own.

    Besides, are we to interview attackers to find out if it is a faith issue or not? Or just turn the other cheek as Jesus said?

    Turn the other cheek is not about self-defense. Good grief, round the merry go round we go again. You sir, are a Pharisee.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Turn the other cheek is not about self-defense. Good grief, round the merry go round we go again. You sir, are a Pharisee.

    How about loving enemies? Do you interview them first to see if they are just thugs, or religious persecutors?

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    How about loving enemies? Do you interview them first to see if they are just thugs, or religious persecutors?

    No

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    No

    How then do you know how to react? If Jesus left loopholes in his teaching as you assume?

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    How then do you know how to react? If Jesus left loopholes in his teaching as you assume?

    Jesus didn't teach on this. Exodus says you will not be held responsible.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Jesus didn't teach on this. Exodus says you will not be held responsible.

    “realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers—in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (NET)

    We cannot use civil Law written for unbelievers under the OT to justify Christian violence under the NT.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    “realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers—in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.” (1 Timothy 1:9–10) (NET)

    We cannot use civil Law written for unbelievers under the OT to justify Christian violence under the NT.

    First, it wasn't written to unbelievers. It was written to Israel, the only believers at the time.

    Second, the civil law and moral laws criss-cross at some parts. The only laws we fully disregard are the ceremonial laws.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    First, it wasn't written to unbelievers. It was written to Israel, the only believers at the time.

    Second, the civil law and moral laws criss-cross at some parts. The only laws we fully disregard are the ceremonial laws.

    Paul says you are wrong. Israel was mostly unbelievers. “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)

    You cannot divide the law up into civil, ceremonial, and moral. We have ZERO support from scripture for doing this. Christ abolished all of the Law on the cross.

    We have the Two Great Commandments the Ten Commandments HUNG from. The Ten are gone, the Two remain and are the same as Abraham, Abel Job and all believers had under the OT.

  • Posts: 4,463

    @C_M_ said:

    Brethren,
    There needs to be a re-reading of the Sermon on the Mount, in general; and the Beatitudes, in particular. Follow the life and teachings of Jesus. We are to trust God in all things, at all times. CM


    God is the Christian's Protector! No swords or Guns. Hear the Word of the Lord through the Psalmist (Psalm 37):

    9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
    But those who wait on the LORD,
    They shall inherit the earth.
    10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
    Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
    But it shall be no more.
    11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
    And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

    12 The wicked plots against the just,
    And gnashes at him with his teeth.
    13 The Lord laughs at him,
    For He sees that his day is coming.
    ## 14 The wicked have drawn the sword

    And have bent their bow,

    To cast down the poor and needy,

    To slay those who are of upright conduct.

    15 Their sword shall enter their own heart,

    And their bows shall be broken...

    20 But the wicked shall perish;
    And the enemies of the LORD,
    Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
    Into smoke they shall vanish away...

    23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
    And He delights in his way.

    24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
    For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

    25 I have been young, and now am old;
    Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
    Nor his descendants begging bread.
    26 He is ever merciful, and lends;
    And his descendants are blessed.

    27 Depart from evil, and do good;
    And dwell forevermore.
    # 28 For the LORD loves justice,

    And does not forsake His saints;

    They are preserved forever,

    But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

    29 The righteous shall inherit the land,

    And dwell in it forever.

    30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
    And his tongue talks of justice.
    31 The law of his God is in his heart;
    None of his steps shall slide.

    32 The wicked watches the righteous,

    And seeks to slay him.

    33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand,

    Nor condemn him when he is judged.

    34 Wait on the LORD, And keep His way,
    And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
    When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.
    35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
    And spreading himself like a native green tree.
    36 Yet he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
    Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.

    37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;

    For the future of that man is peace.

    38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;

    The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

    39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
    He is their strength in the time of trouble.
    ## 40 And the LORD shall help them and deliver them;

    He shall deliver them from the wicked,

    And save them,

    Because they trust in Him.

    Your position is confirmed by the Word of God. We don't need guns. God will take care of his people (Ps 37: 7, 8):

    7. Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for Him;
    Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
    Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
    8. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
    Do not fret—it only causes harm.
    CM

    -- The New King James Version. (1982). (Ps 37:7–8). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @C_M_ said:


    God is the Christian's Protector! No swords or Guns. Hear the Word of the Lord through the Psalmist (Psalm 37):

    9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
    But those who wait on the LORD,
    They shall inherit the earth.
    10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
    Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
    But it shall be no more.
    11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
    And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

    12 The wicked plots against the just,
    And gnashes at him with his teeth.
    13 The Lord laughs at him,
    For He sees that his day is coming.
    ## 14 The wicked have drawn the sword

    And have bent their bow,

    To cast down the poor and needy,

    To slay those who are of upright conduct.

    15 Their sword shall enter their own heart,

    And their bows shall be broken...


    20 But the wicked shall perish;
    And the enemies of the LORD,
    Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish.
    Into smoke they shall vanish away...

    23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD,
    And He delights in his way.

    24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
    For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

    25 I have been young, and now am old;
    Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
    Nor his descendants begging bread.
    26 He is ever merciful, and lends;
    And his descendants are blessed.

    27 Depart from evil, and do good;
    And dwell forevermore.
    # 28 For the LORD loves justice,

    And does not forsake His saints;

    They are preserved forever,

    But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

    29 The righteous shall inherit the land,

    And dwell in it forever.

    30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
    And his tongue talks of justice.
    31 The law of his God is in his heart;
    None of his steps shall slide.

    32 The wicked watches the righteous,

    And seeks to slay him.

    33 The LORD will not leave him in his hand,

    Nor condemn him when he is judged.

    34 Wait on the LORD, And keep His way,
    And He shall exalt you to inherit the land;
    When the wicked are cut off, you shall see it.
    35 I have seen the wicked in great power,
    And spreading himself like a native green tree.
    36 Yet he passed away, and behold, he was no more;
    Indeed I sought him, but he could not be found.

    37 Mark the blameless man, and observe the upright;

    For the future of that man is peace.

    38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together;

    The future of the wicked shall be cut off.

    39 But the salvation of the righteous is from the LORD;
    He is their strength in the time of trouble.
    ## 40 And the LORD shall help them and deliver them;

    He shall deliver them from the wicked,

    And save them,

    Because they trust in Him.

    Your position is confirmed by the Word of God. We don't need guns. God will take care of his people (Ps 37: 7, 8):

    7. Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for Him;
    Do not fret because of him who prospers in his way,
    Because of the man who brings wicked schemes to pass.
    8. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath;
    Do not fret—it only causes harm.
    CM

    -- The New King James Version. (1982). (Ps 37:7–8). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

    Thanks CM.

    Jesus asked:

    “And which of you by worrying [buying guns] can add even one hour to his life?” (Matthew 6:27) (NET)

    Job understood this saying:

    “Since man’s days are determined, the number of his months is under your control; you have set his limit and he cannot pass it.” (Job 14:5) (NET)

  • Posts: 4,463

    The Christian has no need for a gun. Yeshua’s words to his disciples about suffering:

    “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!” (Ma􏱴tt. 10:22–25).

    Note also John 15:18–21: “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.” CM

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