How do you justify violence as a Christian?

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    If Jesus and the disciples turned the other cheek, which BTW they did without exception, you will not see your violence being endorsed by them. So absence of sin because of obedience to righteousness is very pertinent.

    There is no example of a situation which we are talking about so you don't know what they would have done Dave.

    You cannot hold your pro death views and follow Jesus. He does not make allowances. You must love him more than your own life, put away the sword, and take the cross.

    Who in the world says I am pro-death? Good grief. And yes, the Bible DOES make allowances. I'm done debating you. You have lost this one. You take things out of context and add things to Scripture that are not there and ignore half the Bible.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    There is no example of a situation which we are talking about so you don't know what they would have done Dave.

    How many times was Paul beaten and stoned? What did Paul teach about vengeance belonging not to us, but to the Lord?

    Your hermeneutics do not allow for the NT replacing the OT in its entirety. Only those portions of the OT imported by the NT remain. And violent self-defence is not part of the NT.

    Who in the world says I am pro-death? Good grief. And yes, the Bible DOES make allowances. I'm done debating you. You have lost this one. You take things out of context and add things to Scripture that are not there and ignore half the Bible.

    You cannot debate Jesus or the Disciples. They uniformly condemn your pro death (under justifiable conditions including the overthrow of the US government) views.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    How many times was Paul beaten and stoned? What did Paul teach about vengeance belonging not to us, but to the Lord?

    Stoned for his FAITH. That is not the scenario we are talking about here.

    Your hermeneutics do not allow for the NT replacing the OT in its entirety. Only those portions of the OT imported by the NT remain. And violent self-defence is not part of the NT.

    Correct because the NT does NOT replace the OT in its entirety. There is nothing to support that. Not even Christ or the Apostles. There is no evidence that they held that view.

    You cannot debate Jesus or the Disciples. They uniformly condemn your pro death (under justifiable conditions including the overthrow of the US government) views.

    I'm not debating Jesus or the Disciples, I'm debating Dave's unbiblical and illogical theology.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Stoned for his FAITH. That is not the scenario we are talking about here.

    “I have been on journeys many times, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own countrymen, in dangers from Gentiles, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers from false brothers,” (2 Corinthians 11:26)

    “But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord. “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Hebrews 8:8–10)

    Correct because the NT does NOT replace the OT in its entirety. There is nothing to support that. Not even Christ or the Apostles. There is no evidence that they held that view.

    If you try to keep part of the Law, you denounce Christ and must keep all of it. Only the portions imported by the NT are binding. The rest is commentary.

    I'm not debating Jesus or the Disciples, I'm debating Dave's unbiblical and illogical theology.

    You are saying Jesus and all of the Apostles who forfeited their lives died unnecessarily because they refused to defend themselves.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    “I have been on journeys many times, in dangers from rivers, in dangers from robbers, in dangers from my own countrymen, in dangers from Gentiles, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers at sea, in dangers from false brothers,” (2 Corinthians 11:26)

    Yes, in danger because of his faith and message. Not what we are talking about.

    “But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord. “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.” (Hebrews 8:8–10)

    Not sure what this passage is supposed to show...

    If you try to keep part of the Law, you denounce Christ and must keep all of it. Only the portions imported by the NT are binding. The rest is commentary.

    No support for this.

    You are saying Jesus and all of the Apostles who forfeited their lives died unnecessarily because they refused to defend themselves.

    I have never said that. You are talking about something completely different than what I am talking about.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Yes, in danger because of his faith and message. Not what we are talking about.

    Regardless, it is the position every christian is in, and Paul taught us “Do not avenge yourselves, dear friends, but give place to God’s wrath, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Rather, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing this you will be heaping burning coals on his head.Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19–21)

    Not sure what this passage is supposed to show...

    It shows the NT completely replaced the OT except where the NT imported portions.

    No support for this.

    “For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.”” (Galatians 3:10)

    I have never said that. You are talking about something completely different than what I am talking about.

    No, you hold many false doctrines in your bid to cower behind violence.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Regardless, it is the position every christian is in, and Paul taught us “Do not avenge yourselves, dear friends, but give place to God’s wrath, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Rather, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing this you will be heaping burning coals on his head.Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:19–21)

    This passage has nothing to do with self-defense.

    It shows the NT completely replaced the OT except where the NT imported portions.

    There is no way that it shows that at all.

    “For all who rely on doing the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the book of the law.”” (Galatians 3:10)

    Once again, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    No, you hold many false doctrines in your bid to cower behind violence.

    Many "false doctrines" that you have yet to show by Scripture without taking things out of context or bringing in passages that have nothing to do with the topic. I don't cower behind violence. You have no idea what you are talking about.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    This passage has nothing to do with self-defense.

    It has everything to do with trusting God instead of violence.

    There is no way that it shows that at all.

    ““Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

    Once again, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

    You cannot have it both ways. You are either in the New Covenant (peace) or in the Old (violence).

    Find your teaching on violence anywhere in the NT and I'll rest my case.

    You leave us with no other conclusion.

    Many "false doctrines" that you have yet to show by Scripture without taking things out of context or bringing in passages that have nothing to do with the topic. I don't cower behind violence. You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Since the NT does not tolerate violence from Christians, you must preach a different Christ in order to stake your claim.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    It has everything to do with trusting God instead of violence.

    God also gave us means, and permission, to defend ourselves.

    ““Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Jeremiah 31:31–33)

    This passage does not say the OT is out and the NT is the only thing we follow. What this ACTUALLY says is that the Covenant, a specific covenant, would be broken. It in no way says that the entire Old Testament is out and it is a gross mishandling of Scripture to twist it to say that. Jesus and the Apostles did not even hold that view so you stand alone there Dave.

    You cannot have it both ways. You are either in the New Covenant (peace) or in the Old (violence).

    You keep saying that is the options, no that is not the options. Nor is that an accurate representation of Scripture.

    Find your teaching on violence anywhere in the NT and I'll rest my case.

    I don't need to find it in the NT. It's in the OT and that is just as applicable today despite what you seem to think.

    You leave us with no other conclusion.

    No I don't, you just aren't talking about the same things I am. You have no idea what you are talking about. You pull verses out of context, apply them to situations they aren't even discussing, and then tell me I am the one with false doctrine. Good grief.

    Since the NT does not tolerate violence from Christians, you must preach a different Christ in order to stake your claim.

    The NT doesn't say that. It says it does not tolerate agression. It does not tolerate revenge. It says nothing about self-defense. You add to Scripture if you say that it does.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said: >

    God also gave us means, and permission, to defend ourselves.

    Not anywhere to be found in the NT. The disciples had two daggers (swords) that Peter used for self-defence and Jesus rebuked him for it. Why did they have the swords? Because Jesus needed to fulfill scripture about being numbered with the transgressors. Had they not had the swords, they would not have been perceived as transgressors.

    This passage does not say the OT is out and the NT is the only thing we follow. What this ACTUALLY says is that the Covenant, a specific covenant, would be broken. It in no way says that the entire Old Testament is out and it is a gross mishandling of Scripture to twist it to say that. Jesus and the Apostles did not even hold that view so you stand alone there Dave.

    Covenant and Testament are synonyms.

    You keep saying that is the options, no that is not the options. Nor is that an accurate representation of Scripture.

    I don't need to find it in the NT. It's in the OT and that is just as applicable today despite what you seem to think.

    But we are not in the Old Covenant. If we were Jesus would not say "My Kingdom is not of this world". It WAS of this world under the OT.

    No I don't, you just aren't talking about the same things I am. You have no idea what you are talking about. You pull verses out of context, apply them to situations they aren't even discussing, and then tell me I am the one with false doctrine. Good grief.

    The NT doesn't say that. It says it does not tolerate agression. It does not tolerate revenge. It says nothing about self-defense. You add to Scripture if you say that it does.

    How does loving enemies square with your hatred for them?

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Not anywhere to be found in the NT. The disciples had two daggers (swords) that Peter used for self-defence and Jesus rebuked him for it. Why did they have the swords? Because Jesus needed to fulfill scripture about being numbered with the transgressors. Had they not had the swords, they would not have been perceived as transgressors.

    No, Peter did not use them in self defense, he used it in agression. There is a major difference.

    Covenant and Testament are synonyms.

    Oh brother Dave, please tell me you did not bring out that argument in an attempt to be serious or credible? The Old Testament and New Testament are not part of the original. That is what the church has labeled them. There are MANY covenents contained within the books we consider to be the Old Testament. Your argument is invalid.

    But we are not in the Old Covenant. If we were Jesus would not say "My Kingdom is not of this world". It WAS of this world under the OT.

    Not relevant to this conversation.

    How does loving enemies square with your hatred for them?

    https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/loving-your-enemies/

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    No, Peter did not use them in self defense, he used it in agression. There is a major difference.

    Either way, Jesus forbids it. We are to love enemies

    Oh brother Dave, please tell me you did not bring out that argument in an attempt to be serious or credible? The Old Testament and New Testament are not part of the original. That is what the church has labeled them. There are MANY covenents contained within the books we consider to be the Old Testament. Your argument is invalid.

    Not relevant to this conversation.

    It says to love enemies not kill them

    https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/loving-your-enemies/

    Thanks for the link. Here's one for you to consider too.

    http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Either way, Jesus forbids it. We are to love enemies

    No, I'm not going to let you do that. You can't say either way Jesus forbids it when that is not what it says.

    It says to love enemies not kill them

    Thanks for the link. Here's one for you to consider too.

    http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm

    Never heard of PlowCreek. But a brief cursory overview they are not on solid ground.

  • Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    No, I'm not going to let you do that. You can't say either way Jesus forbids it when that is not what it says.

    Never heard of PlowCreek. But a brief cursory overview they are not on solid ground.

    I believe the Mennonites come the closest to understanding NT ethics of any I've come across over the years. But I find some flaws as well. I believe they are closer than the Reformed who are on the far end of the spectrum.

    In my experience I've learned from practically every group considered evangelical and don't believe any single group has all the truth.

    Jesus and the Disciples provided a living commentary on what Jesus meant by the words he spoke. Peter gives a concise outline of how they lived and died.

    “For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:” (1 Peter 2:21–23)

  • Posts: 4,463

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    First, there is not an example of them not doing that either. Absence is not proof of non-existence. That being said, no I don't say put away the cross and take the sword Dave.

    You seem really stuck on this and I'm done debating with you. I have shown clearly you take passages out of their context. But you ask me to prove something and only use the NT. I'm sorry, that is not good hermeneutics and I'm not going to play that game. We have the whole Bible, not just the NT.

    Note: All Scripture is given by Inspiration. Meaning, God "breathe." Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    Lastly, Jesus used the OT. There was no NT at the time of Jesus. The NT is of Jesus' life, sayings, prophecy, history of the early church, and man in relations with Him.

    The Bible is a Divine/human product. The OT points and is reflected in the NT. On the other hand, the NT reflects amplifies the OT.

    All subjects and doctrines should be studied with this in view-- "Line upon line", precepts upon precepts..." Just a reminder. CM

  • Posts: 1,114

    @C_M_ said:

    Note: All Scripture is given by Inspiration. Meaning, God "breathe." Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    Lastly, Jesus used the OT. There was no NT at the time of Jesus. The NT is of Jesus' life, sayings, prophecy, history of the early church, and man in relations with Him.

    The Bible is a Divine/human product. The OT points and is reflected in the NT. On the other hand, the NT reflects amplifies the OT.

    All subjects and doctrines should be studied with this in view-- "Line upon line", precepts upon precepts..." Just a reminder. CM

    Agreed (yes that happens) but I believe you should have directed this toward @Dave_L not me considering that I am the one that actually takes the whole Bible in this conversation.

  • Posts: 4,463

    You're right, but he can see it, just the same. Thanks. CM

  • Posts: 4,463

    Dave,
    Please consider:

    Note: All Scripture is given by Inspiration. Meaning, God "breathe." Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    Lastly, Jesus used the OT. There was no NT at the time of Jesus. The NT is of Jesus' life, sayings, prophecy, history of the early church, and man in relations with Him.

    The Bible is a Divine/human product. The OT points and is reflected in the NT. On the other hand, the NT reflects amplifies the OT.

    All subjects and doctrines should be studied with this in view-- "Line upon line", precepts upon precepts..." Just a reminder. CM

  • Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Agreed (yes that happens) but I believe you should have directed this toward @Dave_L not me considering that I am the one that actually takes the whole Bible in this conversation.

    Thanks for the discussion so far. But please understand that I take the entire Bible seriously. But based on Jeremiah and Paul, we are not under the Old Covenant. Keep in mind the Old Covenant was for wicked unbelievers. And if you want to live according to that, you are missing your calling. 1 Timothy 1:9–10

    Jeremiah says:

    ““Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”” (Jeremiah 31:31–34)

    Paul says:

    “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:13–14)

    @C_M_ said:
    Dave,
    Please consider:

    Note: All Scripture is given by Inspiration. Meaning, God "breathe." Holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    Lastly, Jesus used the OT. There was no NT at the time of Jesus. The NT is of Jesus' life, sayings, prophecy, history of the early church, and man in relations with Him.

    The Bible is a Divine/human product. The OT points and is reflected in the NT. On the other hand, the NT reflects amplifies the OT.

    All subjects and doctrines should be studied with this in view-- "Line upon line", precepts upon precepts..." Just a reminder. CM

    Thanks for the reminder. But perhaps you misunderstand what I'm saying. We are not under the violent Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant.

  • Posts: 4,463

    Thanks for your response. "We are not under the violent Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant", definitely requires a new thread. e.g.
    1. What are they and the terms for each?
    2. To whom it was made?
    3. Was it temporary or permanent?
    4. What was the purpose of the covenant in the first place?
    5. Is it a new covenant or an extension of the old covenant? Meaning there is really only one covenant.
    6. How was the Old Covenant and the New Covenant ratified? Does this determine it names "Old" or "New?"

    These and other questions need to be asked and answered for an understanding of the subject matter. All of the Bible must be used. CM

  • Posts: 1,114

    @C_M_ @Dave_L

    Correct. The problem Dave is when they talk about the Old Covenant they are not talking about the Old Testament.

    Yes, in English those words are synonyms. However, the Biblical writers would not have considered, and even Jesus would not have considered the OT the OT or the NT the NT. That was determined later by the church. You cannot use that as your argument.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    @C_M_ @Dave_L

    Correct. The problem Dave is when they talk about the Old Covenant they are not talking about the Old Testament.

    Yes, in English those words are synonyms. However, the Biblical writers would not have considered, and even Jesus would not have considered the OT the OT or the NT the NT. That was determined later by the church. You cannot use that as your argument.

    Jesus said the Cup was the New Covenant in his Blood. He very well knew the difference.

    And you cannot justify "Christian" violence, once regulated by a Law aimed at wicked unbelievers. And you cannot justify violence before the Law as normal for Christian ethics. OT believers did not have the Baptism (fullness) of the Holy Spirit. You cannot walk in the Spirit and hate enemies or kill them.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Jesus said the Cup was the New Covenant in his Blood. He very well knew the difference.

    We AGREE about not being under the Old Covenant. What I am telling you is that does not equal the entire Old Testament.

  • Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    @C_M_ said:
    Thanks for your response. "We are not under the violent Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant", definitely requires a new thread. e.g.
    1. What are they and the terms for each?
    2. To whom it was made?
    3. Was it temporary or permanent?
    4. What was the purpose of the covenant in the first place?
    5. Is it a new covenant or an extension of the old covenant? Meaning there is really only one covenant.
    6. How was the Old Covenant and the New Covenant ratified? Does this determine it names "Old" or "New?"

    These and other questions need to be asked and answered for an understanding of the subject matter. All of the Bible must be used. CM

    This would make a good thread. My position, should a thread develop is that:

    1. Abraham and believers did not need the Law. They lived according to the two great commandments of love for God and people written in their heart. I.e., you did not need to tell them not to steal, etc.

    2. God aimed the Ten Commandments at the wicked unbelievers. He harnessed their greed promising material blessing for obedience, and loss of material blessing and health for disobedience. (But he used the wicked to defend and preserve the spiritual seed in their midst.)

    3. God removed the wicked unbelievers from Israel when he abolished circumcision and the Law on the cross. The believers accepted Jesus and remained Israel.

    4. As with Abraham and all believers since Abel, we use the two great commandments in love for God and others.

    more later if interested...

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    We AGREE about not being under the Old Covenant. What I am telling you is that does not equal the entire Old Testament.

    Agreed. But Jesus' word supersedes anything that contradicts it in the OT.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Agreed. But Jesus' word supersedes anything that contradicts it in the OT.

    Um, you realize nothing actually does contradict right? And Jesus didn't speak about self-defense. I've already pointed this out but you seem to ignore that point. In fact, Jesus told them to purchase a sword if they did not have one already. Why would he tell them to do that?

  • Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Um, you realize nothing actually does contradict right? And Jesus didn't speak about self-defense. I've already pointed this out but you seem to ignore that point. In fact, Jesus told them to purchase a sword if they did not have one already. Why would he tell them to do that?

    Samuel hacked false prophets to death. That is not your calling under the NT.

    Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword and tells all of us to put it away when he told Peter to put it away.

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    Samuel hacked false prophets to death. That is not your calling under the NT.

    Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword and tells all of us to put it away when he told Peter to put it away.

    Please explain how Samuel is relevant here?

    And no, he was speaking to Peter directly about an act of aggression.

  • Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    Please explain how Samuel is relevant here?

    And no, he was speaking to Peter directly about an act of aggression.

    How do you turn the other cheek and defend yourself?

  • Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    How do you turn the other cheek and defend yourself?

    Not what that passage is talking about Dave I have alraedy shown that.

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