Abortion and Guns: A conundrum?
What is an abortion? Is it killing? Is shooting a man killing? Is a fetus a person? If so, is it killing? If not, why are Christians so upset? A cop can kill a man (or a woman in bed) and is justified but when a doctor performs an abortion, in some places, he is criminalized, Why?
An average citizen (not a cop or member of a militia) in his home or yard, can kill a man, he's lauded for "standing his ground". A Christian who can act as judge, jury, and executioner because he has a gun; yet a doctor who's trained, licensed, and recognized is looked down upon for performing an abortion, with the woman and family consent, is viewed with shame and derision, why?
Shooting a man ("outside the womb", grown, breathing on his own) is an abortion of life? If America so concerns about life, why does she allows, almost anyone, who wants one, to purchase or carry a gun? Everyone knows that guns are instruments of death and were made to kill. Why would the American government and many "so-called" Christians" purchase, own, and use guns? Why is it that more states have more restrictions on Abortion than they do on guns?
If the Second Amendment allows a person to purchase, own, carry and use a gun as he deems necessary, Christians are silent. The U.S. Supreme Court says a woman has a right to abortion (clean/safe) in consultation with her family and doctor, Christians and states have much to say. They want to impose draconian laws, measures, and restrictions upon the abortion doctors and interferes in a private matter of a woman and her family. Can you smell the stench of hypocrisy emanating from the church's bell towers and steeples? Can you perceive the blood-soaked hand of the American government over the gun-shot dead under the guise of "enforcement ", "rights", "Second Amendment", intruders, and "I feared for my life"?
Christians "you can't have your cake and eat it too". Take a stand for life. All life. Get rid of guns. Have you forgotten, they were made to kill more than under undeveloped tissue? CM
Comments
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Not all killing is justified, but SOME is.
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Mr. Reformer and other CD Posters,
I hope your "SOME" "JUSTIFIED" KILLING doesn't include "13-year-old Adam Toledo" of Chicago who complied with police commands and was still shot in the chest. I don't think you and other gun-loving "Christians" can continue to defend trigger-happy, ill-trained, socially indifferent cops. I know you love guns and using them on animals and people who you deem deserving of death. If you didn't say it, you expressed your attitude with the possession of a gun(s). This act alone just spoke louder than your Christian profession. You and all gun-owning, Second Amendment shouting can't be at peace in your heart with this reality in the world" face. CM
"What we know about the fatal police shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo"
I don't know how many "Christian" gun-enthusiasts need death and blood-sheld to soil their doorsteps to wake up, speak up, and step up to be heard on this matter. This includes active CD Posters and its readers.
WHERE ARE THE CHRISTIANS?
Where the Christians who preach, so loudly, the "Word";
When it comes to gun-killings, they can hardly be heard.
How long will we remain behind a steel or sealed doors;
When many our youth needs need mentors.
We share what Jesus taught in the Bible;
yet, we behave so tribal;
By not holding cops and citizen gun-users libel.
Must we keep silent? CM
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So are you watching the full video or the edited one? https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2021/04/16/it-sure-looks-like-cbs-news-edited-body-cam-footage-to-omit-a-key-frame-in-adam-t-n2588060
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Wonder if America will soon experience Jerusalem (city) burning due to blood stains from millions of murders provoking God's Holy wrath:
“ ‘Put on the soup pot.
Fill it with water.
Put chunks of meat into it,
all the choice pieces—loin and brisket.
Pick out the best soup bones
from the best of the sheep in the flock.
Pile wood beneath the pot.
Bring it to a boil
and cook the soup.
“ ‘God, the Master, says:
“ ‘Doom to the city of murder,
to the pot thick with scum,
thick with a filth that can’t be scoured.
Empty the pot piece by piece;
don’t bother who gets what.
“ ‘The blood from murders
has stained the whole city;
Blood runs bold on the street stones,
with no one bothering to wash it off—
Blood out in the open to public view
to provoke my wrath,
to trigger my vengeance.
“ ‘Therefore, this is what God, the Master, says:
“ ‘Doom to the city of murder!
I, too, will pile on the wood.
Stack the wood high,
light the match,
Cook the meat, spice it well, pour out the broth,
and then burn the bones.
Then I’ll set the empty pot on the coals
and heat it red-hot so the bronze glows,
So the germs are killed
and the corruption is burned off.
But it’s hopeless. It’s too far gone.
The filth is too thick.
“ ‘Your encrusted filth is your filthy sex. I wanted to clean you up, but you wouldn’t let me. I’ll make no more attempts at cleaning you up until my anger quiets down. I, God, have said it, and I’ll do it. I’m not holding back. I’ve run out of compassion. I’m not changing my mind. You’re getting exactly what’s coming to you. Decree of God, the Master.’ ”
Eugene H. Peterson, The Message: The Bible in Contemporary Language (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 2005), Eze 24:3–14.
Number and intensity of natural disasters in many places is increasing: hurricanes, fires, tornados, storms, drought, ...
Keep Smiling 😊
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Keep Smiling,
The work you cite is a hyperbole of contemporary exaggerations of personal overreached interpretations. What does this have to do with guns?
Number and intensity of natural disasters in many places is increasing: hurricanes, fires, tornados, storms, drought, ...
See Matt 24. Signs of Christ's coming, but the time is not yet. Keep studying. CM
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More people are killed by abortion than guns in America.
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Hold up Mr. Reformed,
Your statement above, shown below:
"More people are killed by abortion than guns in America."
This statement is pregnant with inaccuracy on one hand and contradictions on the other. It may need a new tread to unpack sufficiently. CM
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Really? Let's look at 2018.
Gun Deaths: 39,740 https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html
Abortion Murders: 619,591 https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm
So it is absolute FACT that more people are killed by abortions in the US each year. In 2018 alone it was over half a million more people.
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@C Mc The work you cite is a hyperbole of contemporary exaggerations of personal overreached interpretations. What does this have to do with guns?
Concur with @reformed about many more people being killed annually by abortions than intentional gun use. Thankful & sad for 1984 movie "The Slient Scream" as a 12 week old baby silentlly screams in a womb while being cut up (killed).
Ezekiel 24:3-14 (LEB literal translation with imperative commands: includes bloodguilt & obscene conduct)
And deliver a proverb to the rebellious house, and you must say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Place the pot! Place it and also pour water into it. Gather its pieces to it, every good piece, thigh and shoulder, fill it with choice bones; take the choicest of the flock, and also pile the bones under it; boil it vigorously; indeed, its bones boiled in the midst of it.” ’ ” Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Woe to the city of bloodguilt! A pot that has its rust in it; its rust did not go out from it. Bring it out piece by piece; one is as good as another. For her blood was in the midst of her; she put it on a bare rock; she did not pour it on the ground to cover it with dust. To stir up rage, to avenge myself through vengeance, I placed its blood on the barrenness of a rock, so that it may not be covered.” Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Woe to the city of bloodguilt! I, even I, will make the pile of wood great! Pile up the logs; kindle the fire; finish cooking the meat, and mix in the spices, and let the bones be burned. And make it stand empty upon its burning coals so that it may become hot, and its copper may become molten and be melted in the midst of it, so that its uncleanness and its rust be consumed. Through effort she has caused weariness; its thick rust went not out of it. Its rust! Into the fire with its rust! In your uncleanness is obscene conduct, because I cleansed you, but you were not clean from your uncleanness; you will not be clean again until I fully vent my rage on you. I, Yahweh, I have spoken. It is coming, and I did it; I will not disregard, and I will not take pity, and I will not reconsider. According to your ways and according to your deeds they will judge you!” declares the Lord Yahweh.
Harris, W. H., III, Ritzema, E., Brannan, R., Mangum, D., Dunham, J., Reimer, J. A., & Wierenga, M. (Eds.). (2012). The Lexham English Bible (Eze 24:3–14). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
America has much bloodguilt with obscene conduct & deeds, truthfully known by Lord Yahweh. Hence, wonder if America will soon experience Jerusalem (city) burning due to blood guilt from millions of murders with obscene ways & deeds to provoke God's Holy wrath. One obscenity is evolution of legal rulings so wrong is being called right: Bibles & Prayers removed from public education, Abortion. 🙏 Praying for massive repentance from sin for Holy Righteous Love in Lord Yahweh.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Thankful & sad for 1984 movie "The Slient Scream" as a 12 week old baby silentlly screams in a womb while being cut up (killed).
This movie is pure propaganda. It has been debunked. It's a shame some are still using it to spread fear, shame, disinformation. CM
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Thankful & sad for 1984 movie "The Slient Scream" as a 12 week old baby silentlly screams in a womb while being cut up (killed).
@C Mc This movie is pure propaganda. It has been debunked. It's a shame some are still using it to spread fear, shame, disinformation. CM
Please provide two OR three factual witnesses for movie being debunked. Otherwise your idea "This movie is pure propaganda." lacks crediblity.
Keep Smiling 😊
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So are you still denying abortion kills more than guns?
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Reformed,
Gun deaths are not a game of comparison:
39,740 X 1 = 39,740 Dead people
619,591 x 0 = 0
Answer the questions below:
- Does abortion kill? Kills what?
- Can one kill what is NOT?
- To kill anything alive is murder?
- Do you equate any internal growth with life and or a person?
What is your response? CM
SOURCE:
*https://health.ucdavis.edu/what-you-can-do/facts.html
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm
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So you don't care about the murder of babies? Noted.
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Reformed,
What are you trying not to say? CM
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I'm very clear. You are ok with the murder of over half a million babies and don't see that as worse than the miniscule (comparatively) amount of annual gun deaths. So you lose ALL credibility on the life issue and should just quit talking.
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Reformed,
Take a ”Chill Pill”! When is a baby, a baby?
An apparent low gun death to a medical procedure is an unfair comparison. Mr. Reformed, how dear you say that I "... lose ALL credibility on the life issue and should just quit talking?
This coming from a Bible-thumbing, name-calling, head-in-sand when it comes unjustifiable police killings of unarmed suspects; putting your nose in other women's (not your wife) wombs; disregard for children in cages at the border; support separating children from parents (who may never be reunited with their families); criminalize a woman, killed in bed by cops, by association (no proof) to side with murderous cops; and the knee and a handcuffed man on the ground gleefully saying the cop's knee was not always on the man's neck; encourage denying undocumented-people medical care and social services; object to struggling people an increase in the minimum wages; you support the purchase, owning, carrying (concealed) no background checks or waiting to buy a gun; your support for high capacity magazine clips; a little girl carrying an AK-47 rifle too big for her in a city meeting; A support of the abuse money-spending NRA; and choosing the dripping-in-blood support of the "Second Amendment" over the Ten Commandments of the Bible.
And you said, I "... lose ALL credibility on the life issue and should just quit talking? This makes as much sense in asking a monkey to bring home a bag of peanuts; asking KKK Grand wizard to speak at the NAACP gala; his children to attend HBCU (Historical Black Colleges and Universities).
So, Mr. Lover of Life (Reformed) is willing to take another man's life over some inanimate object from your yard at night. Guns were made to kill and you CAN'T deny it. You can protect your family and yourself without killing a man with multiple guns in your home. Do you really love life and value all men? Get rid of your guns. Share this in your Bible class and pulpit. CM
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Wow you reduce murdering a baby to "a medical procedure" you are sick and certainly not of God.
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Reformed,
It would be if you (Reformed, not your surrogate) try answering my question labeling me. My question above is:
When is a baby, a baby?
It is your practice to name-call in general, label, and put-downs when you don't have any substantive contributions to make, in particular. Your usual modus operandi is getting old and tired in these forums. In short, "that dog won't hunt", so said, former US President Bill Clinton.
Please, my brother, Reformed, answer my question above with serious facts, and supportive documents if available. Leave off the childless rants. Put on your "big-boy pants" and let's have an adult conversation. "Come now, let's reason together".
- Define what is a baby?
- What is murder(ing)?
- What is "a medical procedure"?
Reformed, your definition of what constitutes "sick" doesn't matter. You don't have the degree, training, knowledge, qualifications to call me or others "sick", however you choose to define it. If you insist on using it in a duplicitous way, think anew. Anyone who holds a position similar to yours, ON GUNS, should take a look hard look in the mirror. Thinking out loud: Could it be that the one who is calling others "sick", could be "sick"? CM
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A baby is a baby at conception. Murder is the intentional killing of a human without just cause (such as war or legal execution), Medical Procedure is something for the health and well being of an individual.
You don't know anything about my degrees training or knowledge. You are a sick and twisted individual.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Thankful & sad for 1984 movie "The Slient Scream" as a 12 week old baby silentlly screams in a womb while being cut up (killed).
@C Mc This movie is pure propaganda. It has been debunked. It's a shame some are still using it to spread fear, shame, disinformation. CM
Please provide two OR three factual witnesses for movie being debunked. Otherwise your idea "This movie is pure propaganda." lacks crediblity.
1984 movie "The Slient Scream" was made by a medical doctor who explained "medical procedure" while murdering (aborting) a 12 week old baby. If desire an intense session of weeping 😭, please pray to Lord God for you to hear magnitude of abortion "silent screams" for awhile 😭
According to Exodus 21:22-25, what is Holy Righteous God Justice for someone who causes a baby in a woman's womb to die ?
Keep Smiling 😊
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According to Exodus 21:22-25, what is Holy Righteous God Justice for someone who causes a baby in a woman's womb to die ?
Hmn ... how does this passage from Exo 21:22-25 apply?
Should the pregnant woman who seeks an abortion "be giving life for life" (since in just about all abortions it is the woman voluntarily seeking and deciding to have an abortion) ? Is the person assisting her even in the same situation as that of the men described in Exo 21 causing the death of an unborn? Is the woman herself causing the death of her unborn??
Has anyone noticed that in current discussions about abortion usually the "guilty of murder" idea is solely blamed on the medical person but never on the woman?? Why is the woman portrayed as innocent victim of a doctor when in reality she is thew driving and motivating force behind the abortion and death of the unborn??
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@Wolfgang posted:
Has anyone noticed that in current discussions about abortion usually the "guilty of murder" idea is solely blamed on the medical person but never on the woman?? Why is the woman portrayed as innocent victim of a doctor when in reality she is thew driving and motivating force behind the abortion and death of the unborn??
Though I'm reasonably certain we come to different conclusions on the issue of abortion, Wolfgang, we're of similar minds on this issue. I've never understood the pro-life community's seeming unwillingness to hold the mother responsible for murder (which is how that community most frequently labels abortion) at the very least as an accessory or co-conspirator to the crime.
As I recall the abortion debate's history, it's been difficult for the pro-life community writ large to specify targets of accountability. Tell us, pro-life advocates, if murder is in your view a capital offense (and for many in that community, it is) then under the law as you would design it, whom would the state execute in the event of an abortion? The doctor who performed the procedure? The nurses and technicians who assisted? How deep into the branches of the medical system- and patient family trees would you prosecute? The office administrator who confirmed the appointment? The supportive partner, parents, and siblings of the woman? The friend who drove the mother to the appointment?
In my view, those who believe abortion is murder (FWIW, I don't) should demand that our society treat abortion the way we treat other murders, but that rarely seems to happen.
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Oh I do. The mother should be tried for murder, the father, if he consented, should be, the doctors and nurses anyone actively involved in both the decision and the action should be charged with murder and, if found guilty, put to death.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus According to Exodus 21:22-25, what is Holy Righteous God Justice for someone who causes a baby in a woman's womb to die ?
@Wolfgang Should the pregnant woman who seeks an abortion "be giving life for life" (since in just about all abortions it is the woman voluntarily seeking and deciding to have an abortion) ? Is the person assisting her even in the same situation as that of the men described in Exo 21 causing the death of an unborn? Is the woman herself causing the death of her unborn??
Holy Righteous God truly knows heart motivation of everyone involved in sin of murdering a baby, will be justly "rewarded" at appropriate time.
@Wolfgang Has anyone noticed that in current discussions about abortion usually the "guilty of murder" idea is solely blamed on the medical person but never on the woman?? Why is the woman portrayed as innocent victim of a doctor when in reality she is thew driving and motivating force behind the abortion and death of the unborn??
@Bill_Coley Though I'm reasonably certain we come to different conclusions on the issue of abortion, Wolfgang, we're of similar minds on this issue. I've never understood the pro-life community's seeming unwillingness to hold the mother responsible for murder (which is how that community most frequently labels abortion) at the very least as an accessory or co-conspirator to the crime.
@Bill_Coley As I recall the abortion debate's history, it's been difficult for the pro-life community writ large to specify targets of accountability. Tell us, pro-life advocates, if murder is in your view a capital offense (and for many in that community, it is) then under the law as you would design it, whom would the state execute in the event of an abortion? The doctor who performed the procedure? The nurses and technicians who assisted? How deep into the branches of the medical system- and patient family trees would you prosecute? The office administrator who confirmed the appointment? The supportive partner, parents, and siblings of the woman? The friend who drove the mother to the appointment?
At times, sadly includes abusive partner, parents, siblings, which shows in h3helpline.org Abortion Stories
Also missing from list of accessories (or co-conspirators) are pro-abortion activists advocating wrong (sin) to be called right: Matthew 5:21-26 (pro-abortion activists are angry at those who agree with Holy Righteous God about baby murder being sin => my truthful words will be labeled as "hate speech" by pro-abortion activists with desire for me to be cancelled from culture, which is another form of murder)
@Bill_Coley In my view, those who believe abortion is murder (FWIW, I don't) should demand that our society treat abortion the way we treat other murders, but that rarely seems to happen.
Is Holy Righteous God pleased by societal rationalizations for sinful actions ? (God's Word with prayer to the only True God has been removed from public education along with legal system evolving away from God's Truth)
H3helpline.org has Post Abortion Stress Syndrome information: 🙏 Praying with Holy Righteous God for multitude of people to experience God's Love ❤️ Thankful can Smile 😍 and say: "I see the Image of God in You. You're Special. God Loves You. Does God like our sin ? No. God Loves Us."
Keep Smiling 😊
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Mr. Reformed, Mr. Reformed,
Taking your intoxicated views to their logical ends is appalling. You either misunderstood the topic being discussed, playing a game, or totally confused!
@Bill_Coley said: "... I've never understood the pro-life community's seeming unwillingness to hold the mother responsible for murder (which is how that community most frequently labels abortion) at the very least as an accessory or co-conspirator to the crime.
@Bill_Coley As I recall the abortion debate's history, it's been difficult for the pro-life community writ large to specify targets of accountability. Tell us, pro-life advocates, if murder is in your view a capital offense (and for many in that community, it is) then under the law as you would design it, whom would the state execute in the event of an abortion? The doctor who performed the procedure? The nurses and technicians who assisted? How deep into the branches of the medical system- and patient family trees would you prosecute? The office administrator who confirmed the appointment? The supportive partner, parents, and siblings of the woman? The friend who drove the mother to the appointment?
Reformed, you said:
@reformed: Oh [,] I do.
Are you for real? Mr. Conservative, Christian professing, addicted name-calling, wannabe psychiatrist, Republican-leaning, pseudo-moralist, and will "fight-to-the-death" sincerely; believes that anyone that has anything to do with an abortion should be deemed "an accessory or co-conspirator to the crime" (Bill's words). This includes:
- "The doctor who performed the procedure?"
- "The nurses and technicians who assisted?"
- "The office administrator who confirmed the appointment?"
- "The supportive partner, parents, and siblings of the woman?"
- "The friend who drove the mother to the appointment?"
Shall we stop here?
- What about the priest the grants "absolution" (I don't believe) and the woman who pays indulgences to get out of purgatory?
- Should we include the Pope, himself? What about those he assigned Arch-bishop, the Cardinal, whom the priest serves under?
- Would you consider criminalizing the manufacturer of the equipment used the perform the procedure?
- What about those in "housekeeping" and the chemical used to clean up after the procedure?
- What about the lawmakers who introduced Abortion rights and the Supreme Court members who affirmed it-- current law?
In following your trend, drilling down on your half-baked positions, if you say to all, the state and the country would have a mess on its hands:
- Casefile overloaded
- trial dates/appeals backed up
- Shortage of lawyers
- If convicted, jails and prisons will be overcrowded. This will lead to a large budget for the Department of Corrections -- more prisons/jails and guards.
This in turn leads to families without parents and a bread earner. This leads to poverty and more crime.
How come you have so much love and care for what's the unknown and undeveloped, in another woman's womb (not your wife's), over an upright, living, breathing, in-your-face person; who has a name and developed relationships?
Also, Reformed, you said:
The mother should be tried for murder, the father, if he consented, should be, the doctors and nurses anyone actively involved in both the decision and the action should be charged with murder and, if found guilty, put to death.
Reformed, your views don't make rational sense. If the "mother"/"father" consented to an "abortion", then charged with "murder" and found "guilty" and they are "put to death", What would happen to the other small children in the family? The neighborhood? The community? and the overall society? If you say Social Services, it would place a heavy burden on the system, shortage of funds and workers (present situation), and would cause children to be raised by others in foster care. This idea lacks sober thinking at least and hypocritical at best.
If your submitted numbers [619,591-- U. S. A. "abortions"] are correct, all the more your views are impractical and mean. In light of what you purport should be done to a mother and father who consented to an abortion, they should be "put to death". Killing two parents for every abortion stated above, that's a lot of people (maybe Bill can do the numbers for a mother and father and the aborted). There will be a shortage of chemicals for lethal injection, electric chairs. Knowing you, I guess you would prefer a firing squad (guns). Would want the job of shooting over 300,000 people. The state would run out of space to bury or the crematories would have to be operational 24/7. You would be justified by the state and get in a lot of target practice, killing mothers and fathers who consented to an abortion. Reformed, would you enjoy killing nearly a half-million mothers and fathers creating a backlog of orphans behind to be placed? If this sounds dark and ridiculous so are your ideas and views on this topic.
In my overall view, you seem to be an angry religious, blood-thirsty, guns-loving, diabolical social path waiting to lash out at a group of people, unlike yourself. Since your enigmatic views are beyond my professional training and paygrade, I would refrain from classifying you as stated above. I would simply say, at this juncture, your views are somewhat extreme and I don't share them. You may want to consider serious revisions before sharing views on this topic beyond what has been expressed. CM
Source:
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm
Post edited by C Mc on -
@reformed posted:
Oh I do. The mother should be tried for murder, the father, if he consented, should be, the doctors and nurses anyone actively involved in both the decision and the action should be charged with murder and, if found guilty, put to death.
I applaud your candor, and thank God that views as radical and fringy as yours will never become the abortion law in the United States. Your views remind me that there are extremists on both ends of the political spectrum, the two groups laboring under the same miniscule odds of ever enacting their policy agenda.
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Yeah I go with God's view on the matter.
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@reformed, you said:
"You don't know anything about my degrees [degree] training or knowledge. You are a sick and twisted individual."
Just when I thought you were about to get serious on the topic at hand you slipped back into the miasmic slime pit of name-calling. I find this to be tantamount to a dog returning to its own vomit".
Oh, your statement above is proof you don't have any training or academic degree to call anyone "sick". If you can produce such, it's not worth the paper it's written on or the e-ink of characters that forms it. In the remotest way, if you can authenticate such a degree with your name on it, you need to give it back and the school needs to close down.
An educated person with proper training will not make an off-the-cuff statement as you did above. What instrument, tests, observational logs, or equipment you used to draw your conclusion? But this is if I were to take you seriously. The most gullible person knows your statement shows a lack of discipline. It seems to reveal one masking fear, hurt, and a lack of temperament. So, stop your foolishness or fooling yourself. You're not a mental hygienist. Nor can you play one on TV.
Reformed, I would like to engage you on the topic in the OP, but not when you're intoxicated on your favorite pastime (name-calling) and teetering back and forth with your fantasy of being a mental hygienist. It's a nice ambition, but not a reality for you. Snap out of it and we can talk. Get real! CM
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Reformed, your views don't make rational sense. If the "mother"/"father" consented to an "abortion", then charged with "murder" and found "guilty" and they are "put to death", What would happen to the other small children in the family?
Most likely the same would happen as would happen when a parent was convicted of murder in a different case ??
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