Who Jesus is? -- A Deeper Look
Only Scripture can answer the question above.
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—
and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ (1 Jn 1:1–3, NASB 1995 Update).
Jesus', claims to deity is when he spoke metaphorically of His person: e.g.
- "I am the bread of life" (Jn 6.35)
- "I am the gate" (Jn 10.9)
- "I am the good shepherd" (JN 10:14)
Yet he didn't say "I am God". To say so:
- In a Jewish context would have caused controversy and confusion.
- In a Pagan context, it would have caused misunderstanding.
The Christians belief that Jesus was one with God is gathering or collaboration of materials about Jesus by others:
- The uniqueness of his person.
- The authority of His teaching
- The awesomeness of His deeds.
- Above all the power of His resurrection.
These are from those who knew Him personally and the language of divinity in proclaiming devotion to Him.
Early Christians background was rooted in a strict Jewish monotheism. Jews/Christians would accept death over sacrificing to Caesar or to the pagan deities.
Please note that Christians from the very beginning addressed Jesus as Lord (1 Cor. 8:5, 6) immediately and not a long process. It was an open, natural, unforced devotion to Jesus as Lord and Messiah. This caused a rift between Christians and their Jewish parent.
The NT reserves referring to Jesus as God directly. However, there are seven specific references that refer to Jesus as God:
- JN 1:1, 18 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
- "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
- JN 20:28. "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
- Rom. 9:5 -- "whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen".
- Titus 2:13 -- "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus".
- Heb 1:8 -- But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom".
- 2 Pet 1:1 -- "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
"The use of theos ["God"] as a christological title shows NOT that Jesus is God-in-action or God-in-revelation but rather that he is God-by-nature:
- The deeds and words of Jesus the deeds and words of God.
- The nature of Jesus is the nature of God; what God is, Jesus is.
- By nature, as well as by action, Jesus is God."
Read and think. Many of you have made your point on the passages above, elsewhere in these forum, spare this thread the rehashing of them here. STAY turned!... CM
Comments
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@C Mc posted:
Read and think. Many of you have made your point on the passages above, elsewhere in these forum, spare this thread the rehashing of them here. STAY turned!...
If in other threads we've expressed our views on the texts you cite in this new thread, you ask us not to express those views here. I give you credit for a novel way to discourage debate, CM.
Does the fact that WE might previously have expressed views on some or all of these texts mean that YOU ALSO might previously have expressed views on some or all of these texts? (e.g. I recall a lively discussion with you on Titus 2.13) If so, I'm curious as to why you've decided not to "spare the rehashing" of YOUR views here.
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@C Mc wrote
Only Scripture can answer the question above.#
Indeed ... and for that reason you could have saved yourself the time to post the lengthy theologians' ideas which start out with man's theories rather than Scripture.
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Wolfgang,
Is not 1 Jn 1:1–3, NASB 1995 Update Scripture? I can't seem to win for losing in dealing with you. It will be all good. Let's keep studying. CM
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Is not 1 Jn 1:1–3, NASB 1995 Update Scripture? I can't seem to win for losing in dealing with you. It will be all good. Let's keep studying. CM
Indeed ... and those were the questions .... BUT what then followed as "answers" from you was more theological fantasy interpretation, even though you initially had stated that only Scripture could answer the questions.
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Wolfgang said: "...then followed as "answers" from you was more theological fantasy interpretation".
Bro. Wolfgang, what above is "theological fantasy interpretation"? Be specific. CM
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@C Mc wrote:
Bro. Wolfgang, what above is "theological fantasy interpretation"? Be specific. CM
The following from your initial post:
__________________________________________
Jesus', claims to deity is when he spoke metaphorically of His person: e.g.
"I am the of life" ()
"I am the " ()
"I am the " (JN 10:14)
Yet he didn't say "I am God". To say so:
In a would have caused .
In a context, it would have caused .
The Christians belief that Jesus was one with God is gathering or collaboration of materials about Jesus by others:
The of his person.
The
The .
Above all .
These are from those who knew Him personally and the language of divinity in proclaiming devotion to Him.
Early Christians background was rooted in a strict Jewish monotheism. Jews/Christians would accept death over sacrificing to Caesar or to the pagan deities.
Please note that Christians from the very beginning addressed Jesus as Lord (1 Cor. 8:5, 6) immediately and not a long process. It was an open, natural, unforced devotion to Jesus as Lord and Messiah. This caused a rift between Christians and their Jewish parent.
The NT reserves referring to Jesus as God directly. However, there are seven specific references that refer to Jesus as God:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained
. "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen".
-- "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus".
-- But of the Son , “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom".
-- "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
"The use of theos ["God"] as a christological title shows NOT that Jesus is God-in-action or God-in-revelation but rather that he is God-by-nature:
The and
The nature of Jesus is the nature of God; what God is, Jesus is.
By nature, as well as by action, Jesus is God."
Read and think. Many of you have made your point on the passages above, elsewhere in these forum, spare this thread the rehashing of them here. STAY turned!... CM
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Wolfgang,
You have to do better than this. It appears you don't believe in the Bible. CM
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Wolfgang,
You have to do better than this. It appears you don't believe in the Bible. CM
I answered your request .... YOU were the one who initially posted that information ... thus YOU need to take a look at your own doing.
Who doesn't believe what Scripture in the Bible teaches is made evident when theological "beyond Scripture" interpretations are believed rather than what Scripture teaches. Cp. the following excerpt from YOUR initial words:
-- "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
"The use of theos ["God"] as a christological title shows NOT that Jesus is God-in-action or God-in-revelation but rather that he is God-by-nature:
The and
The nature of Jesus is the nature of God; what God is, Jesus is.
By nature, as well as by action, Jesus is God."
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Must everything be stated to be true or be believed? CM
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Must everything be stated to be true or be believed? CM
No .... but things fantasized and not in harmony with truth that is stated in Scripture are not true and should not be believed to be true.
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More About Jesus:
- Christ is the Agent of creation (John 1:1-3; cf. Gen 1:1).
- The great self-existent I AM (John 8:58; cf. Exod 3:14).
- The One who led the Exodus out of Egypt (1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Deut. 32:4, 15, 18, 30-31).
- Israel's rightful Bridegroom or Husband (Matt 9:15; John 3:27; 2 Cor. 11:2; cf. Isa 62:5; Jer 2:31-32; Hos 2:16).
- The One who brings the present world order to an end (Matt 21:44; cf. Dan 2:44-45).
- Further more, Christ is typified by the entire succession of Davidic kings (Matt 22:41-46) and Aaronic priests (Heb 8:1-2).
And some still say Jesus was created, just a man. No angel or Satan have done what Jesus did. Neither is who He [Jesus] is. Worship Him! CM
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@C Mc wrote:
Christ is the Agent of creation (John 1:1-3; cf. Gen 1:1)
There was no agent of creation ... God ALONE without any help or helper created as He spoke.
This is a blatantly false claim, nowadays
The One who led the Exodus out of Egypt (1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Deut. 32:4, 15, 18, 30-31)
Moses led the exodus out of Egypt ... as told by God, YHWH
Israel's rightful Bridegroom or Husband (Matt 9:15; John 3:27; 2 Cor. 11:2; cf. Isa 62:5; Jer 2:31-32; Hos 2:16)
I trust you understand the figure of speech used in the expression about bridegroom and bride ...
The One who brings the present world order to an end (Matt 21:44; cf. Dan 2:44-45)
The then present world order (old covenant world/age) was already brought to its end almost 2000 years ago. This present biblical world/age (new covenant age) will not come to an end.
Further more, Christ is typified by the entire succession of Davidic kings (Matt 22:41-46) and Aaronic priests (Heb 8:1-2)
Hmn ... so you think that the wicked idolatrous kings among David's successor also typified Christ? What about Aaronic priesthood ... does Heb not make plain that Christ is NOT a priest after Aaron, but after Melchisedek?
How can one be so blinded to not see these rather obvious truths and instead propound such grave error as you did ?
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@CM said:
Further more, Christ is typified by the entire succession of Davidic kings (Matt 22:41-46) and Aaronic priests (Heb 8:1-2)
@Wolfgang responded:
Hmn ... so you think that the wicked idolatrous kings among David's successor also typified Christ? What about Aaronic priesthood ... does Heb not make plain that Christ is NOT a priest after Aaron, but after Melchisedek?
@C Mc says:
Thanks for responding. I don't agree with your refutation of the biblical texts concerning Christ. However, I will respond to the one you raised a question and may be confused in the minds of others.
"...does Heb not make plain that Christ is NOT a priest after Aaron..."
Yes, you're right. Please note, according to Heb. 5: 4, a priest needs to be called (καλέω) by God, that is, he does not take the honor of the priesthood for himself. This was the case of Aaron, who was called by God. Aaron received the calling (Heb. 5: 4) according to the law (νόμος) that extended genealogically his priesthood to the tribe of Levi (Heb. 7: 5, 11, 28). For instances of νόμος appointing or regulating the Aaronic priesthood in Hebrews, see Heb. 7: 5, 12, 16, 19, 28; 8: 4.
On the other hand, Christ was designated (προσαγορεύω, 5:10) or appointed high priest by God’s oath (ὁρκωμοσία, Heb. 7: 20-21, 28), whose content is essentially the affirmation that Christ is a priest forever (Σὺ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶν), declared in Ps 110:4 (109:4 LXX; Quoted in Heb 5: 6; 7: 17, 21 and alluded to in Heb 5:10; 6:20; 7:11, 15).
Hebrews 5: 5 points out that Christ “did not glorified Himself so as to become a high priest” (NASB), but God said something to Him. This verse seems to imply that God called Christ to the priesthood. The content of what God said to Christ is the quotations of Ps 2:7 and Ps 110:4 in Heb 5: 5-6. These quotations provide the content of the divine priestly calling of Christ.
The only difference between the LXX (Σὺ εἶ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα) and the Hebrews quotations is that the latter omits the verb εἶ.
This divine appointment seems to raise at least two implications for the understanding of Christ as (high) priest:
- (a) Considering that the book of Psalms predates the incarnation of Christ, His appointment as priest was intended, expressed, and revealed by God long before the Christological events narrated and explained in the NT.
- (b) The unchangeability of God’s oath (see Heb 7: 21) lays the ground principle for the idea that Christ’s priesthood will be forever (εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα).
- Hebrews 7:21 includes the specification, “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind” that precedes Σὺ ἱερεὺς εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.
The basic meaning of Christ as priest forever in Hebrews. That is:
- The conceptual focus of εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα is on the person of the priest.
- The implications of this conceptual focus for Christ’s priestly role emphasize the endless results of His priestly activity.
- According to these two points, the forever language for the priesthood of Christ is compatible with the salvation perspective of His priesthood in Hebrews.
A high priest is someone “appointed (verb καθίστημι) on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins” (Heb. 5:1 NASB).
Christ’s priestly offering (Heb. 8: 3–10:18) [Hebrews 8:3 introduces this section by reaffirming the definition of Heb. 5:1, but emphasizes the priestly offering.
- The priestly appointment of the Son (Heb. 5: 1-10; 7: 1-28).
- Clarifies the nature of this appointment (centered on the idea of divine calling)
- The meaning of an appointment on behalf of human beings (centered on the idea of priestly compassion).
Christ’s priestly compassion (Heb. 2:17; 4:15) is not based on the fact that He shared weaknesses of human experiences of test/temptation (Heb. 2: 18; 4: 15)
The book of Hebrews compared Christ’s priesthood with both:
- The Aaronic priesthood (Heb 5:1-5; 7:11, 13, 23- 24, 27-28; 8:3-4; 9:6-7, 11-14, 23-25; 10:11-12).
- Melchizedek’s priesthood (Heb 5:6, 10; 6:20; 7:1-3, 11, 15, 17, 21).
The Aaronic priesthood:
As a shadow, the Aaronic priesthood was a limited anticipation of the coming reality of Christ’s priesthood. It is the reality of His priesthood that puts away sin on the basis of His sacrifice (Heb. 9:26), as Christ bore (verb ἀναφέρω) the sins of many (Heb. 9:28). When it all said and done, the reality of Christ's priesthood, sanctifies and perfects (verb τελειόω) believers (Heb. 10:14).
More truth can be shared later. CM
Source:
George H. Guthrie, “The Structure of Hebrews Revisited,” (paper presented at the Annual Meeting of the Society of Biblical Literature, Washington, DC, 2006), https://hebrews.unibas.ch/documents/2006GuthrieH.pdf
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And what did you mean to say with all that text on Hebrews? What really pertained to the truth in my earlier one line reply you could most likely also have said in a one or two sentence reply sharing your own understanding of that particular point in your very own words ...
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