The TRUTH About "The Logos Of God"

LamechLamech Posts: 23

[96 A.D.]John 1:1,14 is not the place to begin teaching about "the logos of God." The real story began way back in the 105th Psalm; verse 19 -

 Psalm 105:19 Until the time that his [1][logon] word came: the [2](logion)word of the LORD tried him.

The Logos and the Reema became significant when they wee used in giving the law to Moses, the logos being the agreement understood by the people, between themselves and God; and the Reema being the record of the agreement in writing.

[1]logon noun accusative masculine singular form of [UBS] logos = something said (e.g. word; saying; message, teaching; talk, conversation;  account, settlement of an account ; reason, grounds; charge; matter, thing). 

[2]logion noun accusative neuter singular form of noun [UBS] logios, = (eloquent; learned; = ORACLES).

[96 A.D.]John 1:1,14 is not the place to begin teaching about "the logos of God." In the New Testament That honor belongs to one Paul The Apostle in 48 a.d., and he began with a simple statement of moral truth, written some 48 years prior to John's gospel of 96 a.d. to tell us that Paul's "Logos Of God" was personified and became flesh.


48 Years earlier, In 48 a.d. Paul wrote:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but [color=red]Christ liveth in me[/color]: and the life which I now live in

the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [Gal 2:20]

And -

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." [Gal 4:4-7]

Paul also said in that same letter - "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again [color=red]until Christ be formed in you[/color]," [Gal 4:19]

So Paul introduces a concept to the saints, of "Christ living in you;" but does not make any further defining remarks to the saints in Galatia.

Then, in 55 a.d. paul, writing to the saints in Corinth, said this -"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that [color=red]Jesus Christ is in you[/color], except ye be reprobates?" [II Cor 13:5]


Paul begins to introduce some finer points of definition when in 60 a.d. he said he had "[color=red]fully preached THE LOGOS OF GOD[/color]" to the whole world, and explained what it is - "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil [COLOR=RED]THE LOGOS OF GOD[/COLOR]; 26 [COLOR=BLUE]Even the mystery[/COLOR] which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of [COLOR=BLUE]this mystery[/COLOR] among the Gentiles; which is [color=red]Christ in you [/color] , the hope of glory]:" [Col 1:23,25-27]

We need to remember several things that are explained by Paul; 1) there was a mystery hidden from ages and generations, 2) it is now to be made manifest to the saints; and 3) there is glory somehow connected to this "soon to be manifested" mystery; and 4) Paul tells us this mystery has a name "THE LOGOS OF GOD;" and 5) further, he tells us that [color=red]this mystery, this manifested "logos of God" is "Christ in you"[/color] and yet further again, 6)it constitutes for us "the hope of glory." This is quite a mouthful.

So, let's see if this theme is picked up for verification anywhere else in scripture.

What we are looking for is some reference to "Christ in you" while you are "living" and "in your flesh," and further, we are looking for some indication that this is available for a very long time, that this is not just for the saints of Paul's day, to last only as long as he continues to preach it.

So we look, and look some more, till in 69 a.d., we find a reference to "THE LOGOS OF GOD;" but it seems to be in a far different theme or context; it is found in one of the writings of John, in a book called "apokolypse of John" more popularly referenced as "The Revelation of John."

In this book, John speaks to us of a "new name" that Jesus is going to write upon his saints; "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." [Rev 3:12]

The use of the Greek word "kainon" (translated "NEW") tells us this is not a name that has been around since creation and before; nor has it previously been applied to Jesus, or to anyone else as a name; though it has been defined by Paul, at this time,(69 a.d.) for over thirty-three years.

Then John tells us again "His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called "THE LOGOS OF GOD."[Rev 19:12-13]

Finally, another Apostle picks up on the theme introduced and defined by Paul's writings. It is John's turn to talk about the saints in whom the spirit of Christ has been sent by God to dwell in the saints; (that "LOGOS OF GOD" which was introduced by Paul - "Christ living in me") - "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." [Gal 4:4-7]

But John speaks of it this way: "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the logos was made flesh, and dwelt within us, and we beheld his (the one who received Christ) glory, the glory [color=red]as of[/color] (an) only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." [John 1:11-14]

John does not say "as many as received him, them he made sons of God." No, John says "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become(no article in the Greek) sons of God." John is telling us there is something required beyond believing, to qualify one for being a son of God. And that requirement has been being spelled out by Paul the Apostle since Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father, so many years ago.

Why does John fail to say "We beheld the glory of the only begotten son?" Instead, he says "We beheld his glory, glory (ws)as) of an only begotten son."

'ws' is what is called a "particle of comparison." Why would John be comparing the glory of Jesus to the glory of Jesus? The truth is, he is not. He is comparing The glory of the saint in whom the logos of God is personified, with the glory of the only begotten son of God dwelling in that saint.

Jesus did not "become a man" in John 1:14. The only reason there is even a mention of Jesus at all in John's first chapter, is because in 96 a.d., John tied his gospel to the person of Christ and to "the logos of God" referenced in Rev 3:12 and in 19:12-13 with reference to the new name he is to be given, as "THE LOGOS OF GOD."

Jesus was not "THE LOGOS OF GOD" in 30 a.d; He was not "THE LOGOS OF GOD" in 33 a.d. when he was ascended, and he was not "THE LOGOS OF GOD" when John prophecied about his gift-name, as of 69 a.d. it was still a future event; and it was a NAME which is to be given to him.

In 96 a.d. John is speaking in 1:14 about an event in the life of a saint, a personification, and recalling his remarks he wrote in 69 a.d, about Jesus, here ties the two events together.

But the personification of THE LOGOS OF GOD takes place, according to Paul, everytime some saint or other, so lives his life that he can say "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but [color=red] Christ liveth in me[/color]: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [Gal 2:20]

When this saint aknowledges "Christ Jesus" in his life, THE LOGOS OF GOD is personified in the life of that saint. And "we behold the glory (ws)as of) the only begotten son of God" all over again, in that saint, through Christ living in him.

Paul spent a lifetime convincing the saints about this subject of "Jesus Christ living in me" and said, "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," [Gal 4:19]

So to recap what the Apostles have introduced and defined.

Paul introduced "Christ in you;" Paul defined "Christ in you" and said it is "the hope of Glory." He also defined it as "THE LOGOS OF GOD."

Then John picked up on a new name which is to be given Jesus, and that new name is "THE LOGOS OF GOD;" Finally John brings together, in his prologue, the saints in whom can be said "Christ lives in you," and "hope" and "glory" just as Paul had already introduced and defined. And John did not change a thing paul already said.

Jesus was born, at which time he received a name, "Jesus," which served to identify him while he grew in wisdom and in stature, and in favour with God and men, and when he was fully grown, and had died, had been resurrected, and had ascended by 33 a.d., received a name, "THE LOGOS OF GOD" between the time when it was published in 69 a.d., and 96 a.d. when John ties the personification in the saints, to Jesus, who received the name; but it was not who and what he was; it was a name recieved. Jesus was never "THE LOGOS OF GOD" but was given THE NAME "THE LOGOS OF GOD" after he successfully completed his mission and was extolled and made very high, and given a name above every name.

People have him already pre-existing as "THE LOGOS OF GOD" and recognized as the personification of "THE LOGOS OF GOD" at his birth when in fact, the terminology did not even exist until 69 a.d.

When I look at a saint in whom Christ lives, I see THE LOGOS OF GOD personified, and "behold the glory as of an only begotten son of God."

When John in his epistles [1st and 2nd John] speaks of "Jesus Christ came in flesh," he is not speaking of the birth of Jesus in the flesh, for that even was already covered in 68 a.d. in the Epistle to the Hebrews in

Heb 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are (1)[color=blue](kekoinwnhken) partakers of flesh and blood[/color], [color=red]he also himself likewise (2)(metesxen took part of the same[/color]; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (1)(kekoinwnhken)

kekoinwnhken verb ind [color=blue][b]perfect active[/b][/color] 3rd per sing form of verb koinwnew share, take part, participate;  

5778 Tense - Perfect The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Hebrews 2:14 "....he also himself likewise (2)(metesxen took part of the same; (2)(metesxen verb ind [color=red][b]aorist active[/b][/color] 3rd per sing form of verb metexw (aor. metesxon; pf. metesxhka) share in (something);

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered [color=red]without regard for past, present, or future time[/color].

Now look at Jesus "sharing" in flesh as late as 96 a.d. in John's writings-

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (4)(elhluthota) is come in flesh is of God:

[NOTE: no definite article before flesh] (4)(elhluthota) = verb part perfect active accusative masculine singular form of participle

erxomai = appear, make an appearance;

John is speaking of "Christ living in me, in my flesh" spoken of by Paul - "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."[Gal 2:20]

There is no way you can find a place to separate Paul's life in the flesh after his conversion to Christ, from Jesus Christ living in Paul.

Furthermore, John himself said "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:" [I John 4:2]

John did not use the article and neither should we if we are going to understand exactly what John is saying. He is not speaking of Jesus own body of his flesh, for then he would have said "Jesus came in the flesh," and everybody would be in agreement. But John did not say that , he said "Jesus Christ came in flesh," which he did when he lived in Paul "in the flesh."

And to show it is no mistake of language, John repeats in II John 7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

In neither verse does John use the aorist tense verbs, which would be necessary if he was speaking of the life of Jesus in his flesh; but John used a perfect active participle when he said - "... Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:"

The significance of the "perfect active" is that Jesus has accomplished to the fullest, the fact of "com["-ing"] in flesh" as he lives in the lives of the saints. It is not a reference to his having been born "in the flesh."[PERFECT = Completed Action having present consequences]

The present participle in II Jn 7, which if you know anything about Greek participles, they are "-ing" words, and being present tense, means that in 85 - 90 a.d., John is saying Jesus is still com["-ing"] in flesh. Check it out with any Greek scholar you wish, if he knows what he is doing, and is honest, he will lay aside all doctrinal bias and admit the truth of this.

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Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673
    edited May 1

    @Lamech posted:

    [1]logon noun accusative masculine singular form of [UBS] logos = something said (e.g. word; saying; message, teaching; talk, conversation;  account, settlement of an account ; reason, grounds; charge; matter, thing). 

    [2]logion noun accusative neuter singular form of noun [UBS] logios, = (eloquent; learned; = ORACLES).

    Instead of then going on with a "terribly blown up interpretations around various theological corners", why not acknowledge the simple plain truth that "word [Gr. logos]" means and is "word [Gr. logos]" ???? I'd suggest to simply understand the term in its principal and normal meaning as given in the above definitions => word, saying, message, teaching, concept, reason, thought, oracle, etc ...

    The term logos is "a thing", NOT a ""person".

    Some might wonder, "But what about Joh 1:14 (word BECAME flesh) ?" Well, what about it? Simple answer: What had existed in the form of logos (word, concept, plan, etc) -- namely, a human person born of a woman who would be the Messiah and savior -- in God's foreknowledge (cp 1Pe 1:20, Joh 1:1) becane reality when that human person of flesh and blood was born of a woman (cp. Gal 4:4, Joh 1:14). Simply said, the plan (word about a human person of flesh and blood) became reality with the birth of that planned flesh and blood person.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Lamech posted:

    And to show it is no mistake of language, John repeats in II John 7 "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."

    Why do you then theologically fog the matter and muddy the waters of understanding the simple truth which is expressed in 2John? The simple truth is that those who do not confess that Jesus was a human being of flesh and blood (cp. Heb 2:14) are deceivers and are anti Christ.

    Truth is always SIMPLE .... error is usually complicate ... perhaps in order to make it appear "scholarly" with a lot of Greek language details (which are more often than not only theological "afterthoughts" in order to supposedly prove the error as true for the less knowledgeable readers or listeners.

  • LamechLamech Posts: 23

    2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the [1](logon) word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

    [1]logon = accusative masculine singular form of the noun [UBS] logos, something said; word; saying; message, teaching; talk, conversation; preaching; say; account; value; reason; grounds; reasonably; patiently; charge; matter; thing; book;  

    John never said Jesus is the logos. And "THE LOGOS OF GOD" is a name first referenced 36 years AFTER the resurrection, as a name to be given to Jesus for fulfilling "The Logos Of God;" which he did when he began to "Live in the saints, in their bodies.

    "The LOGOS" was translated "the same" or "it" in the first four English translations, and did not begin to call the LOGOS "HE" until after the Catholics translated it "HE," in the RHEIMS Translation of 1582.


    TYNDALE BIBLE (1525)

    John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and the worde was god.

     2 The same was in the beginnynge with god.

     3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothinge that was made.

     4 In it was lyfe; and the lyfe was the lyght of men.

     5 And the lyght shyneth in darknes; but the darknes comprehended it not.


    GREAT BIBLE (1539)

    1 In the begynnyng was the worde, and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. 3 All things were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothyng that was made. 4 In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyghte of men, 5 and the lyght shyneth in darcknes, and the darcknes comprehended it not.


    GENEVA BIBLE (1560)

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the worde, and the worde was with God, and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was lif; and the lif was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkenes; and the darkenes comprehended it not.


    BISHOP'S BIBLE (1568)

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was that word. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made. 4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darknesse; and the darkeness comprehendeth it not.


    RHEIMS BIBLE (1582)

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was made nothing. That which was made 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darknesse; and the darkenesse did not comprehend it.


    KING JAMES BIBLE (1611)

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

     2 The same was in the beginning with God.

     3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

     4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

     5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    2 Corinthians 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the [1](logon) word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

    [1]logon = accusative masculine singular form of the noun [UBS] logos, something said; word; saying; message, teaching; talk, conversation; preaching; say; account; value; reason; grounds; reasonably; patiently; charge; matter; thing; book;  

    Paul and his co-workers did not corrupt the message God had revealed but proclaimed and spoke it in sincerity. So, what's your point?

    John never said Jesus is the logos.

    Yes ... word is word, not a person. God's message (the word of God, the message of God, etc.) about a coming Messiah existed in God's foreknowledge fomr before the foundation of the world (1Pe 1:20) and God revealed more and more of His plan of this coming Messiah during the course of time, and when time was fulfilled what had been existing in the form of word, message, teaching, etc. (proclaimed by the prophets, etc.) became reality when the Messiah was born of a woman (Gal 4:4).

    And "THE LOGOS OF GOD" is a name first referenced 36 years AFTER the resurrection, as a name to be given to Jesus for fulfilling "The Logos Of God;" which he did when he began to "Live in the saints, in their bodies.

    No, the "word of God" is generally not a name but a term which refers to word, message, etc that originates with God. As the "word of man" is not a name or a title, neither is "the word of Paul" or "the word of God" ... "word of God" simply is God's word, message, etc.

    In Rev there is a mention in a vision which was seen by the apostle John of someone having the name "The Word of God" ... other than that, I am not aware of "the word of God / God's word" being said to be a name.

    "The LOGOS" was translated "the same" or "it" in the first four English translations, and did not begin to call the LOGOS "HE" until after the Catholics translated it "HE," in the RHEIMS Translation of 1582.

    Indeed ... word, message is an IT, and not a HE. German translations still have "it" or "the same [in neuter gender]" in John 1:1ff.

    The error found in English translations using "he" instead of "it" is a translation error due to the theological assumption and preconceived idea that "logos" in Joh 1 is a male person, namely Jesus. In translation, one must observe the GRAMMATICAL gender of words (something not found as such in English, as it is in other languages like Greek, Latin, French, German, etc. If the correct word in the target language is of a different grammatical gender fomr the word in the source language, any pronouns in the target language must be adjusted to correspond to the correct grammatical gender of the noun in the target language.

    In Greek, the word logos has the grammatical gender masculine, thus in a Greek text the corresponding pronouns would be masculine (the equivalents of "he, him, his". A grammatical gender masculine does NOT mean that logos is a masculine or male person!! When translating into German, the word of logos is the word "Wort" (grammatical gender neuter) and all the Greek masculine pronouns referring to logos must be translated with German neuter pronouns in the German translation. In French, we would have "la parole" with grammatical gender female, and all the Greek pronouns relating to logos would be translated with female pronouns in French.

    In English, the correct translation for the Greek logos is the noun "word,, message". Now, which gender pronoun relating to "word, message" would be used in English? The answer is obvious => "it" (and not "he").

  • LamechLamech Posts: 23

    John wrote the book called "Apocalypse," Which we know more as "Revelation of John," in 69 A.D., and in it reveals a name Jesus is to receive at some future time, unknown by the world or the church when it was being written. By the time John completed his writing, he was inspired to write the name which none knew but he (Jesus) himself, till it was revealed to John who continued till he had written the name "The Logos Of GOD."

    John referenced the name "The Logos Of GOD" as a (kainon) NEW name, previously unknown. So Jesus was NOT Known as The Logos Of GOD until some point in history between 69 a.d. and 96 a.d. when John wrote the last book of the bible.

    But it was not given to Jesus at the time John wrote about it. When John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., no one called Jesus "The Logos Of God" except John who understood it to reference the crucified, resurrected Christ.

  • @Wolfgang The term logos is "a thing", NOT a ""person".

    @Wolfgang Some might wonder, "But what about Joh 1:14 (word BECAME flesh) ?" Well, what about it? Simple answer: What had existed in the form of logos (word, concept, plan, etc) -- namely, a human person born of a woman who would be the Messiah and savior -- in God's foreknowledge (cp 1Pe 1:20Joh 1:1) becane reality when that human person of flesh and blood was born of a woman (cp. Gal 4:4Joh 1:14). Simply said, the plan (word about a human person of flesh and blood) became reality with the birth of that planned flesh and blood person.

    How was the reality of God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) experienced by Jesus (Messiah) before creation/foundation of the world ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673
    edited May 2

    @Lamech posted

    John wrote the book called "Apocalypse," Which we know more as "Revelation of John," in 69 A.D., and in it reveals a name Jesus is to receive at some future time, unknown by the world or the church when it was being written.

    I agree that that John received the vision at Patmos and wrote the book not in 96AD but prior to the calamity and God's judgment on apostate Israel in the events of 70 AD (or more accurately 67-70AD including 3,5 years of siege of Jerusalem)

    I suggest a more careful reading of what John wrote and how the term "word of God" is actually used in that book ... compare the following:

    Rev 1,2

    Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Rev 1,9

    I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 6,9

    And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Rev 19,13

    And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 20,4

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    It should be rather clear and plain that an idea such as "it reveals a name Jesus is to receive at some future time, unknowwn to the world or the church" is obviously not what the text says ...

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted

    How was the reality of God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) experienced by Jesus (Messiah) before creation/foundation of the world ?

    Just as the glory and other features a house experienced in the mind and on the plans of an architect at the time when the architect invented and conceived it in his mind in the form of word and drawings.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus How was the reality of God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) experienced by Jesus (Messiah) before creation/foundation of the world ?

    @Wolfgang Just as the glory and other features a house experienced in the mind and on the plans of an architect at the time when the architect invented and conceived it in his mind in the form of word and drawings.

    During planning phase, architect marvels at what is coming. According to prayer by Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24, when did Jesus share (have) God's Glory & God's Love ?

    Humanly a couple can rejoice when planning for children. They become parents when children are conceived (as their plan is being fulfilled). Children cannot share (have) their parent's love until they are conceived (individually alive).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted

    During planning phase, architect marvels at what is coming. According to prayer by Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24, when did Jesus share (have) God's Glory & God's Love ?

    There is nothing in the text about Jesus sharing or experiencing God's glory or God's love before the foundation of the world. Jesus knew that he was that Messiah who would be God's Son and whom God had planned and promised to come, and God's plan for that Messiah - which God had in mind from before the world began - not only had suffering but also glorification afterwards and throughout had God's love for His only begotten Son.

    Jesus shared in that glory as it became reality when Jesus was glorified. Jesus experienced God's love from childhood onward ... as God provided for him in every situation.

    Humanly a couple can rejoice when planning for children. They become parents when children are conceived (as their plan is being fulfilled). Children cannot share (have) their parent's love until they are conceived (individually alive).

    Neither did Jesuss share in His heavenly Father's love until he had been conceived and born.

  • @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus During planning phase, architect marvels at what is coming. According to prayer by Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24, when did Jesus share (have) God's Glory & God's Love ?

    @Wolfgang There is nothing in the text about Jesus sharing or experiencing God's glory or God's love before the foundation of the world.

    John 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί

    John 17:5 (AV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    εἶχον is imperfect (continuous action in past time), active, indicative, first person, singular of verb ἔχω (so can be translated had or was having)

    John 17:24 (SBLGNT) πάτερ, ὃ δέδωκάς μοι, θέλω ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ κἀκεῖνοι ὦσιν μετʼ ἐμοῦ, ἵνα θεωρῶσιν τὴν δόξαν τὴν ἐμὴν ἣν δέδωκάς μοι, ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.  

    John 17:24 (AV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    ἠγάπησάς is aorist (it happened), active, indicative, second person, singular of verb ἀγαπάω (so translation is simple past: loved or lovedst)

    According to words spoken by Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24, when was Jesus having (experiencing) God's Glory & God's Love ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,626

    Brethren,

    Consider the book of Revelation was written at end of the first century. John wrote Revelation while on Patmos, a small rocky island in the Aegean Sea (fifty miles) off the southwest coast of Asia Minor (modern Turkey). The governing authorities exile him to Patmos during the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian (A.D. 81–96) where he was forced to work in the quarries.

    The book of Revelation was written in a time of Roman hostility toward Christianity. General scholarly consensus holds that Revelation was written during the time of Domitian (A.D. 81–96). This date for the writing of Revelation is preferable for two reasons:

    1. John stayed in Jerusalem for a number of years, eventually leaving Palestine shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. He subsequently settled in Ephesus in Asia Minor. The churches he refers to in his book had been in existence for a number of years. They were in a condition of spiritual decline and apostasy. The churches in Asia Minor were not founded until the early sixties. They were still prospering during the reign of Nero.
    2. Irenaeus, the disciple of Polycarp (A.D. 60–150), said that the book of Revelation was written during the time of Domitian.
    3. The book was written in a time when Christians were experiencing hardship and pressure because of their refusal to comply with popular demands for emperor worship. While worship of the living emperor had been advanced by the Romans since Augustus Octavian (27 B.C.–A.D. 14). The emperors who demanded worship were:
    • Gaius Caligula (A.D. 37–41) was the first emperor to demand worship for himself.
    • Domitian (A.D. 81–96). “It was under this emperor, that the question of emperor worship became, for the first time, a crucial issue for Christians.”

    The book of Revelation was suited and designed to provide hope and encouragement to oppressed Christians of John’s day. CM

    SOURCES:

    • Irenaeus Against Heresies 5.30.3 (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 1:559–560).
    • Victorinus In Apocalupsi 1.11
    • Eusebius Historia Ecclesiae 3.18.1 (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 1:148)
    • Jerome Lives of Illustrious Men 9 (The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 3:9).
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    According to words spoken by Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24, when was Jesus having (experiencing) God's Glory & God's Love ?

    was already answered in detail in a previous reply to the same question you had already asked a few times before.

    You now showing that you can quote some Greek text does NOT change a thing ... Jesus HAD already love and glory from God in God's plan from before the foundation of the world ....

    YOUR error is in interpreting Jesus' words in a theologically muddied fashion into a "Jesus EXPERIENCED ..." Why do you do so?? Why do you contradict what Jesus said ? Do you want to make Jesus a "God-man" or "man-God", that is, something Jesus was not?? Turn Jesus himself and Scripture into lias? Well, go ahead!!

  • LamechLamech Posts: 23
    edited May 3

    John wrote the book called "Apocalypse," Which we know more as "Revelation of John," in 69 A.D., and in it reveals a name Jesus is to receive at some future time, unknown by the world or the church when it was being written. By the time John completed his writing, he was inspired to write the name which none knew but he (Jesus) himself, till it was revealed to John who continued till he had written the name "The Logos Of GOD."

    John referenced the name "The Logos Of GOD" as a (kainon) NEW name, previously unknown. So Jesus was NOT Known as The Logos Of GOD until some point in history between 69 a.d. and 96 a.d. when John wrote the last book of the bible.

    But it was not given to Jesus at the time John wrote about it. When John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., no one called Jesus "The Logos Of God" except John who understood it to reference the crucified, resurrected Christ.

    "Rev 3:12 Him that [1](nikwn)overcometh) [2](poihsw)will I make) a pillar in the temple of my God, and ( exw ou mee exelthee|)he shall go no more out): and (grafw ep auton to onoma tou Theou mou kai to onoma tees polews tou Theou mou tees kainees Ierousaleem h` katabainousa ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou mou kai to onoma mou to (kainon)I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my [3](kainon)new name.

    [1]nikwn = present active nominative masculine singular participle form of the verb [UBS] nikaw = conquer, overcome; win the verdict;

    [2]poieesw = indicative future active 1st person singular form of the verb [UBS] poiew = make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide;

    [3]kainon = accusative neuter singular form of adjective [UBS] kainos = [color=red]new; of new quality; unused;  unknown, unheard of; the latest thing; [/color]

    }interlinear{ Rev 3:12

     o`.......nikwn......poieesw......auton...stulon

    The (one) overcoming I will make..of him..a pillar


    en..tw...naw.....tou.....Theou..mou

    in..the..temple..of the..GOD....of me


    kai..exw.ou.mee........exelthee..........eti

    and..out.by.no.means...he.will.go.forth..any longer


    kai..grafw.........ep..auton.to..onoma..tou....Theou..mou

    And..I.will.write..on..him...the.name...of the.GOD....of me


    kai.to..onoma.tees...polews..tou...Theou..mou

    and.the.name..of.the.city....of.the.GOD...of.me


    tees....kainees..Ierousaleem..ee..katabainousa..ek......tou..ouranou

    of.the..new......Jerusalem....--..descending....out of..the..Heaven


    apo..tou..Theou..mou....kai.to..onoma.. mou....to..kainon

    from.the..GOD....of me..and.the.name..of me..the.new.


    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


    Rev 19:10

    kai epesa emprosqen twn podwn autou proskuneesai autw kai legei moi Ora

    mee sundoulos sou eimi kai twn adelfwn sou twn exontwn teen marturian

    Ieesou tw Thew proskuneeson eeh` gar marturia Ihsou estin to pneuma tees profeeteias.


    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat

    upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth

    judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called (o` logos tou Theou)The Word of God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Until John was inspired in 69 a.d. to write the Apocalypse (Revelation), no one knew or had heard of "The Logos Of God, being a reference to Jesus. NO ONE KNEW THE name until sometime after the revelation book was written. Even John did not know until inspiration moved him to write the words that revealed it, in 69 a.d.


    The beginning of which John wrote in his gospel, was not the beginning of creation, as the 119th Psalm clearly shows, because the Logion preceded the Logos, which became well known in the giving of the law to Moses.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Lamech posted

    John wrote the book called "Apocalypse," Which we know more as "Revelation of John," in 69 A.D., and in it reveals a name Jesus is to receive at some future time, unknown by the world or the church when it was being written. By the time John completed his writing, he was inspired to write the name which none knew but he (Jesus) himself, till it was revealed to John who continued till he had written the name "The Logos Of GOD."

    You have repeatedly made this claim with no scripture support thus far to substantiate your claim. As a matter of fact, I have listed verses where the experssion "word of God" is used in the book of Revelation, and these verses do not support your idea.

    Therefore, would you please provide scripture and your reasoning for making the above claim?

  • LamechLamech Posts: 23

    When John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., no one called Jesus "The Logos Of God" except John who understood it to reference the crucified, resurrected Christ.

    "Rev 3:12 Him that [1](nikwn)overcometh) [2](poihsw)will I make) a pillar in the temple of my God, and ( exw ou mee exelthee|)he shall go no more out): and (grafw ep auton to onoma tou Theou mou kai to onoma tees polews tou Theou mou tees kainees Ierousaleem h` katabainousa ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou mou kai to onoma mou to (kainon)I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my [3](kainon)new name.

    [1]nikwn = present active nominative masculine singular participle form of the verb [UBS] nikaw = conquer, overcome; win the verdict;

    [2]poieesw = indicative future active 1st person singular form of the verb [UBS] poiew = make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide;

    [3]kainon = accusative neuter singular form of adjective [UBS] kainos = new; of new quality; unused; unknown, unheard of; the latest thing;

  • Psalm 104:19 (LXX) μέχρι τοῦ ἐλθεῖν τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ, τὸ λόγιον τοῦ κυρίου ἐπύρωσεν αὐτόν.

    τὸν λόγον is noun, accusative, singular, masculine of λόγος translating דְבָר֑וֹ (noun, singular, common, construct of דָּבָר with singular relative pronoun suffix)

    τὸ λόγιον is noun, nominative, singular, neuter of λόγιον (oracle, word) translating אִמְרַ֖ת (noun, common, feminine, singular, construct of אִמְרָה)

    Greek root for λόγος and λόγιον is verb λεγω (to say; to speak)

    τοῦ κυρίου is noun, genitive, singular, masculine of κύριος translating יְהוָ֣ה (per Jewish convention of saying Adonai, Lord, for God's Holy name)

    Dr. John Gill comments on Psalm 105:19 (Psalm chapter & verse numbering in English Bibles can be a bit different than LXX & Hebrew)

    Ver. 19. Until the time that his word came, &c.] Either the word of Joseph, interpreting the dreams of the butler and baker, till that came to be fulfilled; so the Syriac version, till his word was proved by the event: or rather till the fame and report of that came to Pharaoh’s ears, Gen. 41:13, 14 or else the word of the Lord, concerning his advancement and exaltation, signified in dreams to him, Gen. 37:7–10 as it follows: the word of the Lord tried him: it tried his faith and patience before it was accomplished; and when it was, it purged him and purified him, as silver in a furnace, and cleared him of the imputation and calumny of his mistress; for, even in the view of Pharaoh, he appeared to be a man in whom the spirit of God was, Gen. 41:38. Some think that Christ, the essential Word, is intended, who came and visited him, tried and cleared him.

     John Gill, An Exposition of the Old Testament, vol. 4, The Baptist Commentary Series (London: Mathews and Leigh, 1810), 152.

    @Lamech "Rev 3:12 Him that [1](nikwn)overcometh) [2](poihsw)will I make) a pillar in the temple of my God, and ( exw ou mee exelthee|)he shall go no more out): and (grafw ep auton to onoma tou Theou mou kai to onoma tees polews tou Theou mou tees kainees Ierousaleem h` katabainousa ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou mou kai to onoma mou to (kainon)I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my [3](kainon)new name.

    [1]nikwn = present active nominative masculine singular participle form of the verb [UBS] nikaw = conquer, overcome; win the verdict;

    [2]poieesw = indicative future active 1st person singular form of the verb [UBS] poiew = make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide;

    [3]kainon = accusative neuter singular form of adjective [UBS] kainos = new; of new quality; unused; unknown, unheard of; the latest thing;

    Please use Greek letters for Greek words (intermixing English words with Greek transliteration is hard to read/understand) so reformatted reply:

    Rev 3.12 (LEB) The one [1]who conquers, [2]I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never go outside again, and I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God, and my [3]new name.

    Rev 3:12 (SBLGNT) ὁ [1]νικῶν [2]ποιήσω αὐτὸν στῦλον ἐν τῷ ναῷ τοῦ θεοῦ μου, καὶ ἔξω οὐ μὴ ἐξέλθῃ ἔτι, καὶ γράψω ἐπʼ αὐτὸν τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θεοῦ μου καὶ τὸ ὄνομα τῆς πόλεως τοῦ θεοῦ μου, τῆς καινῆς Ἰερουσαλήμ, ἡ καταβαίνουσα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ μου, καὶ τὸ ὄνομά μου τὸ [3]καινόν.

    [1]νικῶν = present, active, participle, singular, nominative, masculine of verb νικάω = conquer, overcome; win the verdict;

    [2]ποιήσω = future, active, indicative, 1st person, singular of verb ποιέω = make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide;

    [3]καινόν = adjective, accusative, singular, neuter of καινός = new; of new quality; unused; unknown, unheard of; the latest thing;

    Phrase "καὶ τὸ ὄνομά μου τὸ καινόν." (and the name my the new) emphasizes καινόν (new). New name from The Holy One, The True One (Rev 3:7) will be Holy & True (wonder if new name is like a gold stamp of approval from God for one conquering, overcoming in God's Love).

    Phrase "ὁ νικῶν" could be translated: "the one conquering" as an English gerund has some similarities to Greek participle (adverbial adjective).

    UBS Handbook (for translating Revelation to diverse cultures/languages around the world) offers three possibilities about Rev 3:12 new name:

    The last name, my own new name, is not easy to identify. Perhaps it refers to the name “The Word of God” (19:12–13), or the name “King of kings and Lord of lords” (19:16), or “the Lamb” (5:6), which appears fifty times in this book.

    Robert G. Bratcher and Howard Hatton, A Handbook on the Revelation to John, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1993), 77.

    @Lamech When John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., no one called Jesus "The Logos Of God" except John who understood it to reference the crucified, resurrected Christ.

    Logos Bible Software search <Lemma = lbs/el/λόγος> WITHIN 3 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/el/θεός> of All Resources in my library includes Apostolic Fathers, Philo, Eusebius, Patrologia Gracia, &c. so not yet know if understanding. is correct. Didache (Διδαχὴ) 4.1 uses phrase τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ. John 1:1 "... καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" describes quality of The Word was being God (since θεὸς is anarthrous and ἦν is a form of verb εἰμί)

    @Wolfgang The term logos is "a thing", NOT a ""person".

    Is "a thing" God ? according to quality expressed in John 1:1 phrase "... καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" "... and God was being The Word" since definite article was not used for θεὸς (God), phrase expresses quality of ὁ λόγος while also expressing θεὸς is more than ὁ λόγος (if they were completely equal, definite article would have been used for θεὸς). Greek word order emphasizes ὁ λόγος (that describes θεὸς quality Ἐν ἀρχῇ "In beginning").

    Priestly prayer of Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24 echos beginning of John 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, ..." since Jesus was having God's Glory with God before the world was (only θεὸς existed before creating the world) plus Jesus was the object (me) of God's Love (ἠγάπησάς με = God The Father loved me, Jesus) before the foundation of the world. One God's commUnity of Love included The Word being part of God's architectural plans for world creation, human conception (so The Word of God became flesh), crucifixion, resurrection, and glorification.

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus According to words spoken by Jesus in John 17:5 and John 17:24, when was Jesus having (experiencing) God's Glory & God's Love ?

    @Wolfgang was already answered in detail in a previous reply to the same question you had already asked a few times before.

    @Wolfgang You now showing that you can quote some Greek text does NOT change a thing ... Jesus HAD already love and glory from God in God's plan from before the foundation of the world ....

    @Wolfgang YOUR error is in interpreting Jesus' words in a theologically muddied fashion into a "Jesus EXPERIENCED ..." Why do you do so?? Why do you contradict what Jesus said ? Do you want to make Jesus a "God-man" or "man-God", that is, something Jesus was not?? Turn Jesus himself and Scripture into lias? Well, go ahead!!

    Your words are your own. Matthew 7:1-6 describes humans seeing their own faults in someone else (with admonition to take care of personal faults first so have experience to help other humans take care of their faults). Human children cannot be loved by their parents until the child is alive, but Jesus was loved by God The Father before the foundation of the world (when only one God existed). Jesus is both God and Human, who became God The Son after leaving Holy Heaven to be conceived inside Mary (fulfilling Psalm 2:7 "today" prophecy as specified in one God's plan).

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Lamech posted

    When John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., no one called Jesus "The Logos Of God" except John who understood it to reference the crucified, resurrected Christ.

    ??? Where did John call Jesus by THE NAME "the Word of God" ?????

    "Rev 3:12 Him that [1](nikwn)overcometh) [2](poihsw)will I make) a pillar in the temple of my God, and ( exw ou mee exelthee|)he shall go no more out): and (grafw ep auton to onoma tou Theou mou kai to onoma tees polews tou Theou mou tees kainees Ierousaleem h` katabainousa ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou mou kai to onoma mou to (kainon)I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my [3](kainon)new name.

    [1]nikwn = present active nominative masculine singular participle form of the verb [UBS] nikaw = conquer, overcome; win the verdict;

    [2]poieesw = indicative future active 1st person singular form of the verb [UBS] poiew = make, do, cause, effect, bring about, accomplish, perform, provide;

    [3]kainon = accusative neuter singular form of adjective [UBS] kainos = new; of new quality; unused; unknown, unheard of; the latest thing;

    ??? And how does this attempt of pointing out Greek text have anything to do with A NAME OF JESUS ???

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus ... forget your Greek theological expositions and interpretations ... just carefully read the context (even in English) and observe what it says.

    DO you realize that the original recipients and readers of the biblical writings, of the Scriptures, were not Greek scholars of theology students doing some Greek analyzing of grammar and lexical meanings and then trying to interpret what was written?????? ????? ❓️❓️❓️❓️❓️

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,626

    Wolfgang said:

    DO you realize that the original recipients and readers of the biblical writings, of the Scriptures, were not Greek scholars of theology students doing some Greek analyzing of grammar and lexical meanings and then trying to interpret what was written?

    "The original recipients" spoke and use the common language of the day, "Koine" Greek. In some places, Aramaic was spoken. I hope this helps. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    "The original recipients" spoke and use the common language of the day, "Koine" Greek. In some places, Aramaic was spoken. I hope this helps. CM

    While they spoke the language, they would not have set there and dissected a writing into grammar details and theological ideas, or were they all Greek or Aramaic scholarly trained theology students???

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote

    Your words are your own.

    Of course they are my own and I take responsibility for what I write.

    Are your words not your own? Do you employ a ghost writer ? Do you not take responsibility for what you write???

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus claimedd

    Human children cannot be loved by their parents until the child is alive,

    Well, perhaps my wife and I are "superhumans / Gods"???? Because we certainly loved our children from the time we planned on having children, and we talked about them, loved and enjoyed thinking about them, and acted accordinglly in order to then have them actually come into our lives.

  • C McC Mc Posts: 3,626

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

    Human children cannot be loved by their parents until the child is alive,

    Sir, are you, in a round-about way, trying to say that a fetus is just undeveloped tissue? You may answer here [if it isn't too much of a deviation from the topic at hand], in another thread. CM

  • edited May 5

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Human children cannot be loved by their parents until the child is alive,

    @C Mc Sir, are you, in a round-about way, trying to say that a fetus is just undeveloped tissue? You may answer here [if it isn't too much of a deviation from the topic at hand], in another thread. CM

    An unborn child, who is alive, can experience Love from Parents: words can be spoken, prayed, sung, &c. After birth, child can hear familiar loving voice (comforting & reassuring to child). When living child can speak, then child could say to a human parent: ἠγάπησάς με (you loved me).

    @Wolfgang Well, perhaps my wife and I are "superhumans / Gods"???? Because we certainly loved our children from the time we planned on having children, and we talked about them, loved and enjoyed thinking about them, and acted accordinglly in order to then have them actually come into our lives.

    Your children could not say ἠγάπησάς με (you loved me) to you until your child was alive and could speak. Contrast is John 17:24 where Jesus prayed to πάτερ (God The Father): ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (because You loved me before foundation of world). During architectural planning before creation (out of nothing), Jesus was loved by God & was having God's Glory (John 17:5) when only One God existed.

    Keep Smiling 😊

    Post edited by Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus on
  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted

    Your children could not say ἠγάπησάς με (you loved me) to you until your child was alive and could speak.

    Sure, only living humans of a certain age and after they have learned some things can speak and express such things as "you loved me".

    Contrast is John 17:24 where Jesus prayed to πάτερ (God The Father): ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (because You loved me before foundation of world).

    No contrast there at all ... Jesus spoke these words when he was about 30 years old and obviously had learned that he was that Messiah whom God had in Hisp lan from even before the world was. Jesus DID NOT SPEAK these words before the world was. Are you saying Jesus already prayed this prayer before the world was and not in the garden when he was about 30 years old?

    During architectural planning before creation (out of nothing), Jesus was loved by God & was having God's Glory (John 17:5) when only One God existed.

    Exactly, "DURING GOD'S ARCHITECTURAL PLANNING", God's love and God's glory were there for that Messiah to come when the time was fulfilled.

  • MitchellMitchell Posts: 598

    Welcome to the forums Lamech

    Now as for the following claim:

    @Lamech the real story began way back in the 105th Psalm; verse 19 -

     Psalm 105:19 Until the time that his [1][logon] word came: the [2](logion)word of the LORD tried him.


    The following is just a friendly reminder...

    The Greek Lexeme λόγον and λόγιον do appear in the Masoretic text or the Hebrew Bible at all. The terms do appear in the LXX at Psalm verse 104:19 but but not at 105:19!


    EXHIBIT ONE: Notice how the Masoretic/Hebrew Text refrains from using the two Greek lexeme λόγον and λόγιον :

     Psalm 105:19 עַד־עֵ֥ת בֹּֽא־דְבָר֑וֹ אִמְרַ֖ת יְהוָ֣ה צְרָפָֽתְהוּ׃


    EXHIBIT TWO: Notice the absence of λόγον and λόγιον in verse 105:19 in the LXX

    Psalm 105:19 καὶ ἐποίησαν μόσχον ἐν Χωρηβ καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ γλυπτῷ


    Okay, finally we have evidence that at least matches your verse transcription....

    EXHIBIT TWO AND A HALF:Psalm 104:19 μέχρι τοῦ ἐλθεῖν τὸν λόγον αὐτοῦ τὸ λόγιον κυρίου ἐπύρωσεν αὐτόν


    Grace and Peace



     

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    So then, what about the truth regarding "the word [gr. logos] of God"?? Here are a few verses from gospels (Mark, Luke, where the expression "the word of God" is used.

    Mk 7,13   Making the word of God [τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ] of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

    Lk 5,1   And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God [τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ], he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,

    Lk 8,11   Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God [ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ]

    Joh 10,35   If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God [ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ] came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

    There are plenty more scriptures where the expression is used, and ALL of them rather clearly show that the expression "the word of God [[ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ]" is not a name, but a reference to "word" whose author is "God"

  • Logos Bible Search for (<Root = lbs/el/λεγω> WITHIN 3 WORDS <Root = lbs/el/κυριος>) INTERSECTS word finds many verses, including:

    Exodus 4:28 (LXX) καὶ ἀνήγγειλεν Μωυσῆς τῷ Ἀαρὼν πάντας τοὺς λόγους Κυρίου οὓς ἀπέστειλεν καὶ πάντα τὰ ῥήματα ἃ ἐνετείλατο αὐτῷ. (and announced Moses to the Aaron all the words of Lord who sent and all the sayings which He commanded him)

    Psalm 32:4 (LXX) ὅτι εὐθὴς ὁ λόγος τοῦ κυρίου, καὶ πάντα τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ ἐν πίστει· (that righteous the Word of The Lord, and all the works of Him in faith)

    Matthew 15:6 (SBLGNT) καὶ ἠκυρώσατε τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ διὰ τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν. (and you revoke the word of God through the traditions of you)

    Luke 22:61 (SBLGNT) καὶ στραφεὶς ὁ κύριος ἐνέβλεψεν τῷ Πέτρῳ, καὶ ὑπεμνήσθη ὁ Πέτρος τοῦ λόγου τοῦ κυρίου ὡς εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὅτι Πρὶν ἀλέκτορα φωνῆσαι σήμερον ἀπαρνήσῃ με τρίς. (and turned the Lord looked the Peter, and remembered the Peter the Word of the Lord how He said to him that before rooster to crow today will deny me thrice)

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Contrast is John 17:24 where Jesus prayed to πάτερ (God The Father): ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (because You loved me before foundation of world).

    @Wolfgang No contrast there at all ... Jesus spoke these words when he was about 30 years old and obviously had learned that he was that Messiah whom God had in Hisp lan from even before the world was. Jesus DID NOT SPEAK these words before the world was. Are you saying Jesus already prayed this prayer before the world was and not in the garden when he was about 30 years old?

    If Jesus knew his existence began to fulfill God's plan, why did Jesus pray to πάτερ (God The Father): ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (because You loved me before foundation of world) instead of the human example in Psalms 138:13 (LXX) ὅτι σὺ ἐκτήσω τοὺς νεφρούς μου, Κύριε, ἀντελάβου μου ἐκ γαστρὸς μητρός μου (because you created kidneys my, Lord, from womb mother my) ? (kidneys are an innermost part)

    Noticed Κύριε in Psalms 138:13 (LXX) refers back to the Psalm 139:1 (LHB) יְהוָ֥ה (Yahweh) since a lemma for Lord is not in Hebrew Psalm 139:13.

    Jesus qualified being One Loved by God The Father before the foundation of the world and earlier used an imperative verb in 17:5 (SBLGNT) καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί. (and now glorifiy me you, Father, beside yourself the glory that I was having before the world to exist beside you). The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, SBL Edition: Expansions and Annotations describes τοῦ as articular relation: The word τοῦ modifies εἶναι (verb) in Jn 17:5, word 17 (εἶναι is within the current clausal unit, after τοῦ).

    Humanly we do not have documentation about what God spoke before creation (material for paper, &c. did not exist prior to creation). Was Jesus Truthful in praying about His existence πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου (before foundation of world) and πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι (before the world to exist) ? if the words of Jesus are Truthful, curious about not believing them as they show Jesus knew He was being One in God before creation ?

    Keep Smiling 😊

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,673

    @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted

    If Jesus knew his existence began to fulfill God's plan, why did Jesus pray to πάτερ (God The Father): ὅτι ἠγάπησάς μεπρὸκαταβολῆς κόσμου (because You loved me before foundation of world) instead of the human example in Psalms 138:13 (LXX) ὅτι σὺ ἐκτήσω τοὺς νεφρούς μου, Κύριε, ἀντελάβου μου ἐκ γαστρὸς μητρός μου (because you created kidneys my, Lord, from womb mother my) ? (kidneys are an innermost part)

    Jesus fulfillment of God's plan did not begin before the foundation of the world, God's plan existed from before the foundation of the world. Jesus' life as a living being did not begin until "when the time was fulfilled and he was born of a woman" (cp. Gal 4:4).

    Psa 138:13 has absolutely NOTHING to do with this matter .... CONTEXT, dear @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, is what provides the fundamental key to understanding correctly the meaning of words, statements, etc. ... irrelevant of the language (English, Greek, German, Spanish, Latin, etc.

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