Trans-gender -- A Third Gender or A Perversion?

This situation goes to the Supreme Court for rights like all other Americans. The truth be told, is Trans-gender a legitimate gender; therefore, a third gender or Perversion? Has it "existed since the beginning of time", as I have heard recently.

Some questions confronts the the Church and clergymen:

  1. How does one define "transgender"?
  2. Is transgender natural or a choice?
  3. Can one be "transgender" and yet, Christian?
  4. What does the Bible say about trans-gender?
  5. Can they be baptized into the Christian Church?
  6. If a person is a member of the church, then becomes transgender, should this individual be dismissed from the fellowship?
  7. Are there transgender clergymen? If so, how many? Is there a rationale or justification for them to be?
  8. Are "transgenders" entitled to workplace protections and medical coverages?
  9. Should "transgender" people be identified by the gender of their birth or what they declared themselves to be?
  10. To be clear, is transgender a perversion to humanity and therefore, the courts, the church, and society shouldn't be bother or invest any time or energies upon the matter?
  11. Is transgender worthy of the Christian's time to debate or it should be dismissed as an unexplainable sin?

These and other questions (though some overlapping) begs to be answered by society and the church. CM

Comments

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,026

    How does one define "transgender"?


    Good question ... I was wondering the same. Anyone have a definition so that we know what we are talking about?


    What does the Bible say about trans-gender?


    I would say the Bible knows only TWO genders (no matter how one might want to define it) ... male and female.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    There is no such thing as transgender. It's made up. These people have mental illness. There are only two genders. Male and Female He created them. Gender is biological. It's not a feeling or mental state.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    As far as your questions.

    1. Transgender is a term used to legitimize a confused individual about their biological sex and trying to place themselelves in the opposite gender.
    2. It is not natural, normal, or a choice. It's a politically correct farce.
    3. I would have a hard time thinking so. You are defying God at the most basic level so how could you be submitting to him in anyway?
    4. It doesn't because there is no such thing.
    5. Not legitimately.
    6. If they refuse to repent? Yes. Dismiss them.
    7. There are, but there is no biblical justification for it.
    8. They should be entitled to the medical coverages anyone else in their biological sex would receive.
    9. The biological gender.
    10. The only energy that should be given is to get them the mental help they need and the spiritual help they need.
    11. It is sin, but that doesn't mean dismiss it.
  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102

    Here is what Outlife has to say on the matter...

    Being transgender

    Trans is an umbrella term for those whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex they were given at birth, for example, transgender or transsexual people. Some trans people may feel that they are a man born into a female body or a woman born into a male body, but not necessarily.

    Trans people may also identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer or gender fluid, non-binary, and may indentify as a combination of male and female or as neither.

    Many trans people know they are trans from a very young age, while others say that they only identified as trans during their teens. The term trans is the preferred term for many transgender people.

    If you are friends with or know a trans person then it's important to address them with the gender they refer to themselves as and refer to them with their chosen name and gender pronoun.

    What's the difference between trans and other forms of gender identity?

    • A transsexual person is someone whose gender identity is the opposite of the sex assigned to them at birth. Transsexual people may or may not take hormones or have surgery.
    • Cross-dressers are people who like to wear the clothes of another gender, but who don't identify as another gender.
    • Drag Kings/Drag Queens are people who exaggerate female and male roles, generally for the purpose of entertainment.
    • Androgynes are people who mix the characteristics/appearance of both sexes in a subtle or deliberately flamboyant way.
    • Intersex People are people who can be born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t fit with typical definition of male or female.

    SUPPORT:

    For more information about gender, or if you'd like to speak to a professional about gender, visit www.genderedintelligence.co.uk.

    Find and contact support groups near you at https://www.transunite.co.uk which contains the most up-to-date listings for online and offline trans communities.

    --- DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU? CM

    SOURCES:

    -- OutLife -- Unit 22, Eurolink Business Centre 49 Effra Road Brixton, London SW2 1BZ [outlife@lgbthero.org.uk].

    -- https://www.outlife.org.uk/being-transgender?gclid=Cj0KCQjwoebsBRCHARIsAC3JP0KQVekJKASA6JLY2azh7m3kgLT3LyLU-EgBzvBgH8rM8-9zSRwEKEaAmPEEALwwcB

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,026

    Trans is an umbrella term for those whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex they were given at birth, for example, transgender or transsexual people. Some trans people may feel that they are a man born into a female body or a woman born into a male body, but not necessarily.


    There are problems with this statement:

    (a) people are not given a sex/gender at birth ... sex / gender is already existent and determined prior to birth (cp. ultra scans that may reveal whether the baby is male or female.

    (b) how people feel is irrelevant ... I could make myself feel as if a were an elephant or a mouse or whatever ... none of such 2identity feelings" determine anything regarding what I am (except, such feelings might indicate a mental disturbance or illness on my part.

    There is no such thing as "man born into a female body" (or visa versa, a woman born into a male body) ... just as there is no elephant born into a human body.


    Trans people may also identify as gender-neutral, genderqueer or gender fluid, non-binary, and may indentify as a combination of male and female or as neither.


    Sure, they may identify as such, just as I may identify as an elephant or a mouse ... but anyone accepting me to therefore be an elephant or mouse would have to be considered having a severe problem of recognition or terrible ignorance of facts of life

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102

    Mmmm 🤔, Wolfgang,

    Are you (and Mr. Reformed) clearly on the records as saying people claiming transgender are "mentally-ill" or delusional? Why would the US Supreme Court take up such matters? Are they, the same as those who claims transgender-hood? Are there not transgender people in your beloved Germany? They have no rights in your country? If they do, is the German Government "mentally-ill" or delusional?

    Help me out here: Non-transgender "mentally-ill" people (many who are mass-shooters and owners of high magazine assault guns) have no and shouldn't have rights? May be you and Mr. Reformed can figure this one out. CM

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,026

    Are you (and Mr. Reformed) clearly on the records as saying people claiming transgender are "mentally-ill" or delusional?


    I consider the "transgenderism" of today as a mental illness, psychological illness, delusion.

    Why would the US Supreme Court take up such matters? Are they, the same as those who claims transgender-hood?


    The US Supreme Court (or German courts, etc) might have their reasons for ruling what they are ruling ... are they the new Gods who are absolutely right on all issues?? Whether or not they are equally or similarly mentally ill as those who claim transgender would depend on what they claim for themselves, etc.

    There have been plenty of times where I have seen very learned persons taking up a rather very simple and plain matter and after their learned discussion you could no longer recognize the original matter and according to them a "round wheel" was a "square table top" 😉


    Are there not transgender people in your beloved Germany? They have no rights in your country? If they do, is the German Government "mentally-ill" or delusional?


    Sure, there are such folks in Germany ... and as people they have the same rights as other citizens as well. Having rights to think and believe what one wants to think and believe does not mean that what is thought or believed is correct and must be accepted as correct by others, yes?? If I want to believe I am a gorilla and dress in a monkey costume and behave like that etc, Yes, I have the right to do so ...but am I right? Would I be correct or should I be diagnosed as having a mental problem/illness? Would you be correct or have to accept that I am a gorilla, or would you be wrong and also have some kind of mental problem if you thought I was a gorilla?


    Help me out here: Non-transgender "mentally-ill" people (many who are mass-shooters and owners of high magazine assault guns) have no and shouldn't have rights? May be you and Mr. Reformed can figure this one out.


    You seem to confuse "have rights" with "being correct". In addition, there is the matter of imposing a person's position/belief on others, and especially doing so to limit the others' thinking and believing. As a male, you may believe you are a female in a wrong body (or visa versa) ... but don't impose on me that I have to accept and believe that such is actually the case or else tell me that I have a mental problem because I do recognize the rather simple and plain truth that you are a male or female due to biological facts, despite what you think or believe about yourself.

    The problem is that a minority of folks with the particular mental problem screams louder and is more bold than the majority of sound folks in order to justify their problem and have it accepted as the norm. And top level politicians and other authorities give in and agree with them in order to not upset the apple cart ... and actually m,ake themselves fools.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    First, did I say people who are confused about their gender should not have rights? No. And yes they are mentally ill

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102

    Mr. Reformed,

    Do Transgender people have a place in the Christian Church, in general and in your church, in particular?

    Are you trying to say God only loves the mentally stable and balanced? Do you consider Transgender People earth's damned?

    What hope is the for the Transgender People in society and the Christian Church? Be careful of your response, Trans People read the posts in these forums. CM

    PS. In your opinion, who are more receptive to Transgender People, non-trinitarians or Trinitarians?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    No, they do not have a place in the Christian church. They are living in open and active sin and in defiance of their creator.


    I never said God doesn't love the mentally ill. Not sure why you are saying that.


    If trans people are reading they need to repent and seek God. Turn from their sin.


    As far as receptive it doesn't matter nor is that relevant. They are living in open sin and need to repent as anyone in the LGBT agenda does.

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    Of course this goes with the false assumption that God loves everyone. He doesn't. If you are not saved he has nothing but wrath for you.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,026

    Jesus love LGBT people. CM


    So what?

    Does Jesus love sinners? If he does, does it mean they should continue in sin and everything will just be fine because Jesus loves them?

    What do you actually mean when you say Jesus loves LGBT {or whatever people}?

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102

    Brethren,

    Jesus died (death on the cross) for LGBT People. He died once, for all people, and for all sins! "Christians" are to love those whom Jesus loves. It is through fellowship and relationships people change. Jesus would eat with them, fellowship, talk, pray with them, teach and lovingly affirm their being (humanity) in view of the kingdom to come. Jesus would show compassion, mercy and grace to the LGBTQ People. Why can't the Christian Churches do the same, today?

    Is it not, the "church is a hospital for the sin-sick" and not a "warehouse for sinners"?

    Wolfgang, look beyond the LGBTQ People's faults see their needs. Do you and your church treats or hold the same views of LGBTQ People as you do the following?

    • People with aids
    • PTSD
    • The poor
    • Cancer
    • Alcoholics
    • Sex Addicts
    • Meth/drug Addicts
    • Opioids addiction
    • Hermaphrodite -- "a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition".

    If you do, your treatment of them is not representative of the Christ, in the Bible. Therefore, your Christianity is not worth a dime. How would you ever reach them if you don't interact with people of the LGBTQ Community? Today you call them names, close your church doors, turn your backs, and call them "mentally-ill". Tomorrow, it could be your mate, a family, and worse case, it could be you, have you considered this? How would you want the church to relate to you? Jesus said "the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (LK 19:10).

    If you do, your treatment of them is not representative of the Christ, in the Bible. Therefore, your Christianity is not worth a dime. How would you ever reach them if you don't interact with people of the LGBTQ Community? Today you call them names, close your church doors, turn your backs, and call them "mentally-ill"; tomorrow, it could be your mate, a family, and worse case, it could be you. How would you want the church to relate to you? Jesus said "the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost” (LK 19:10).

    A soul in need of redemption doesn't need debating. S/he is in needs love, compassion, and fellowship by those who are followers of Christ. Search your heart. Are you one of them? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    No, Jesus did not die for all sins. He died only for the sin of the elect. That is not to say that there are not LGBT that cannot repent and be saved but Jesus did not die for every person. That is not found in Scripture.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102

    Wow!

    What is sin?

    Who are the elect: then, and now?

    You seem to have it in for the LGBTQ Community members. No church and now, no Savior or shed blood for them? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    Why do you think I feel that only about LGBTQ? The only reason they are being discussed is because that is what this thread is about.


    What do you mean what is sin? I don't understand why you are asking that. In reference to this thread, the LGBTQ lifestyle is sin.


    The elect are those that were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to believe in His son receiving Salvation.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,026

    @C_M_ Mte

    Jesus would show compassion, mercy and grace to the LGBTQ People. Why can't the Christian Churches do the same, today?

    Jesus would let people continue in their wrong ways of sin ... because that is their privilege, their free will decision to do. But he would certainly did not declare "unrighteousness" to be "righteousness" and treat unrepentant sinners the same as those who repented and followed him.

    Is it not, the "church is a hospital for the sin-sick" and not a "warehouse for sinners"?

    No, the church is not a hospital for the sin-sick ... it is the place for those healed from sin. It is also not a warehouse for sinners who store their sins there in order to take them up any time they feel like it.

    Wolfgang, look beyond the LGBTQ People's faults see their needs. Do you and your church treats or hold the same views of LGBTQ People as you do the following?

    Well, the need for an LGBTQ person is for him/her to change and get healed of their mental derangement. Their need is not that the others in essence conform to their spirit and accept what is wrong as being right.

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102

    Let's be clear. Is this statement ["...to change and get healed of their mental derangement".] applicable to the people below with these conditions?

    • People with aids
    • PTSD
    • The poor
    • Cancer 
    • Alcoholics
    • Sex Addicts
    • Meth/drug Addicts
    • Opioids addiction
    • Hermaphrodite -- "a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition".

    Are you putting the cart before the horse? Why do I get the impression that you are putting the LGBTQ people in a different category than those listed above? Furthermore, are you trying to say the church, better yet, your church, has no role in helping and healing LGBTQ people? Please read again what Jesus said on a matter similar to what's being discussed.

    29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

    30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

    31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

    32. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. [Luke 5:29 - 5:32]

    Now, do you still hold to your: "No, the church is not a hospital for the sin-sick ... it is the place for those healed from sin. It is also not a warehouse for sinners who store their sins there in order to take them up any time they feel like it", Mr. Wolfgang? CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    @C_M_

    I think it would do you well to figure out what and who the church is for. The church is not for the unsaved. In fact that is impossible because the unsaved by very nature are not part of the church. The church service is not for them in any way. It is for the believers to grow and strengthen them. To educate them.


    That is what is so wrong with many churches today. They have turned it into a place for evangelism and that is not the purpose of the church because the true church is only made up of the saved. Jesus told pastors to feed HIS sheep.


    The evangelism is to happen outside of the church

  • C_M_C_M_ Posts: 3,102



    Mr. Reformed,

    This is really what you said above. Where did you get such ideas? Non-christians must be reach outside the church only (gutted and clean, like fishes) then placed on ice in the church. Non-christians are to be found or assembled off site and brought to the showroom (church) to be put on display. You sound almost like Mr. Trump (whom you will defend to the death) about the Christian Church as he does about entry into America. I guess the Christian Churches will be shouting soon, "build that wall" in reference to their church to keep non-christians out. This makes the Christians (from your view) "so heavenly minded, they're no earthly good". What shame and narrow view of Scripture.

    Also, you seem to be saying once a Christian always a Christian. Have you considered these Bible passages?

    • 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls (Matthew 11:28-29 KJV).

    • But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 19:14 KJV).

    • 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37 KJV).

    • The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" John 10:10 KJV.

    • 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” LUKE 19:10

    • 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. JN 3:16

    I think these passages are applicable to all these:

    • People with aids
    • PTSD
    • The poor
    • Cancer 
    • Alcoholics
    • Sex Addicts
    • Meth/drug Addicts
    • Opioids addiction
    • Hermaphrodite --
    • LGBTQ People

    If not, I guess the sign above is fit for the front door of your church. CM

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    You need to re-read what I said. I said the church is not for the non-believer because non-believers are not the church. Does that mean they are not allowed to come to a service? No. But it does mean they cannot be a member of the church. The focus of the church service should not be the non-believer, but the believer. So no, I reject what you said about what I said because it is not what I said.

  • WolfgangWolfgang Posts: 2,026
    edited October 15

    @C_M_

    Let's be clear. Is this statement ["...to change and get healed of their mental derangement".] applicable to the people below with these conditions?









     -- "a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition".


    Hmn ... I copied and pasted your text ... and when formatting it as a "quote" the bulleted list disappeared (at least on my screen)

    Fopr a long time the "quote" function underneath each post seems to not properly quote the text, but only some link to the text or whatever. Being frustrated with this technical issue, I have used "copy and paste" method of relevant text passages on which I wanted to comment in a reply and then used the paragraph formatting options to mark paragraphs as quote ... which function also seems to be buggy and not properly working.

    My frustration level with this forum software has risen again, and I just no longer want to spend the extra time needed to try and figure out how to "repair / work around" bugs. When just doing "copy and paste", it becomes unclear in the reply who wrote what etc. In addition, the text font color still is so light grey that I have a hard time reading it. ... Thus, for now I am done with it.

  • Bill_ColeyBill_Coley Posts: 1,690
    edited October 15

    I agree that there are issues with the way this site handles pasted text in bullet points. I've actually permanently lost text when I used Ctrl+Z to undo the results of a paste into a bulleted list! Something is amiss for sure. @Jan, might you take a look at these issues?

  • reformedreformed Posts: 2,463

    Honestly the whole quoting system has been off since moving to an upgrade.

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